From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri May 11 15:38:15 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, May 11 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1316 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: my shift indicator is missing... Re: fsj: Please Vote Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection fsj: Re: 84JEEP GRAND WAGONEER fsj: Holley Commander 950 info fsj: new to the list, some questions... fsj: need "spring over" info Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection fsj: insurance companies... fsj: RE: need "spring over" info fsj: Re: insurance companies... fsj: Re: insurance companies... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 23:08:41 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: my shift indicator is missing... It is an odd shaped piece of plastic with a square end on it. It just pushes down into that little square seat on the shift collar. It could be under a floormat or just about anywhere. But it is about 2" long overall IIRC...not too invisible.... JeepNut bobandkara-at-juno.com wrote: > Recently bought a 86 GW, the shift indicator in the steering collum isn't > there (the little white needle that shows what gear you are in). Anyone > ever see how this needle is attached? Is it floating around somewhere in > the steering collumn? > > Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:18:58 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Please Vote {- since most {- of the parents of the other kids are treehuggers, they made fun of him and {- said 4wheel drivers don't use the net and he wouldn't get ANY votes! A lot of us have been online literally longer than those kids have been alive. ;) I've personally been online (and actively so) since '92, and I'm sure many people here (including John, I'm guessing) have been on even longer -- a few may even make me look like a newbie. :) And I think we're proving that. As of my vote, there are 1047 total votes, with 60% for pic#5. The next highest has 5%. I'll bet the re-do the contest later and make some rule about "only people you know, and don't insult the offroaders..." ;) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dain bramaged. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:08:40 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection "Ray (lists)" said: {- All of the Holley TBI systems that I have seen require a 4 bbl intake. {- There might be some that work on a 2 bbl intake now, but I have never seen {- them advertises (I haven't looked). {- {- I'm running Holley Pro-Jection 4Di on an Edelbrock Performer manifold. IOW, {- you have the right manifold. {- ----- Original Message ----- {- From: Alexander Wall {- > I have an Edelbrock Performer 4-bbl intake on my engine, but the Holley {- TBI systems {- > all say 1- or 2-bbl. Is there an after-market fuel-injection system that {- would work on {- > this intake? Actually, this touches on what I was mentioning yesterday. Holley USED to have a 2D system, a 4D, and a 4Di. Despite the 2D being called "2bbl" (because of the number of injectors, I believe), it used a 4bbl manifold (as did the 4D and 4Di). These were all labeled as their "Pro-Jection" line. However, NOW Holley seems to only have 2bbl and 1bbl stuff for their "Pro-Jection" line, and at least the one I checked (the 670cfm 2bbl for AMC V8s, among others, which is P/N 502-20S) do seem to actually use the 2bbl manifold. So you could probably plug this into a stock AMC 360 on the 2bbl models (including all stock GWags, at least standard U.S. versions) to replace the 2bbl Motorcraft carb, and you wouldn't have to change anything else. But for 4bbl stuff, they now have the Commander 950 line, which is supposed to be a small step up from the old Pro-Jection 4Di. The Commander 950 line seems to all be "4Di", meaning digital interactive -- you can adjust the stuff with a PC, and at least the new Commander 950 series actually requires a PC to do it (there apparently aren't any alternative dials or whatever to make the adjustments manually). But they don't label the Commander 950s with "4Di"; they just are. Meanwhile, the stuff in their section labeled "4D/4Di Fuel Injection" seems to be individual components and setups for replacing stock fuel injection, including MPI systems. So you might be able to put together an old system if you know all the individual parts, but I can't check that since I don't know all the original parts. I wouldn't suggest this even if you could; it will probably be more expensive than buying the complete Commander 950 kit, if you can do it at all. Oh, and BTW, it looks like they have 2bbl Commander 950 systems, too, so you could probably use one of those without replacing a stock 2bbl manifold, too. (This is for others on the list; I know you said you already have the Performer 4bbl.) So anyway, the one you probably want for the Performer 4bbl intake is the Commander 950 4bbl, 650cfm. You might be able to go with the 700cfm model, but from responses from this list and another friend to my question from yesterday, sounds like the 650cfm is the way to go. (See my next, shorter email.) This is the setup I plan to get; I plan to start ordering parts within the next week, including the Performer intake (Edelbrock). Holley's Commander 950 page is at http://192.41.49.217/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/C950/C950TB/C950TB.html (using IP because some DNS along the way is screwed up; it's www.holley.com if things are working). The one I mentioned that I plan to get and that you probably want is the first one. Summit (www.summitracing.com) has it for $1320 (now just $6 less than the 700cfm version, in case you really want that one instead). Jeg's (www.jegs.com) has it for $1330. I think their kit includes everything (software, O2 sensor, etc.), but does not include a PC, a 4bbl manifold, or a controllable distributor. I haven't heard anything yet about a controllable distributor that will work with the AMC 360/401, so we may not have an option to control timing with this system. I personally may install one sometime with a dial or slide control under the dash. :) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wish all those people who say I'm an angry loner would just shut up and stay the hell away from me. -- Tom Stoudt - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:14:01 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection Now the shorter email I promised. Just wanted to thank everybody for their feedback about the fuel injection question (which Commander 950 to get, 650cfm or 700cfm). From everybody who replied and from a friend of mine who knows a lot about it, it sounds like the 650cfm version is the one to get for an AMC 360 or even an AMC 401. Sounds like the engine just won't draw in any more air than that. And even if it's borderline to get enough power for the 700cfm (minimum 225hp recommended), it still probably won't get anywhere near the max recommended for the 650cfm (max 300hp recommended), at least not without a supercharger or nitrous or something (which I don't plan to do). I would still welcome more comments, but barring any really different and convincing experiences, I plan to get the 650cfm one, and will probably start ordering parts today or next week. Thanks again! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The more you observe politics, the more you've got to admit that each party is worse than the other. -- Will Rogers - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:42:35 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: 84JEEP GRAND WAGONEER I didn't get a chance to reply earlier... larry kinchen forwarding this to the FSJ lists... john On Thu, 10 May 2001, larry kinchen wrote: >-->TRYING TO FIND WIRING DIAGRAMS FOR MY 84 GRAND WAGONEER >-->I SHUT THE ENGINE OFF &I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO START IT WITH >-->THE KEY SINCE.ICHANGED THE STARTER,IGNITION SWITCH,&SOLENIOD >-->JUMPED THE NEUTRAL SAFETYSWITCH STILL NOTHING.THE WIRING >-->DIAGRAMS I HAVE ARE TO SMALL TO READ.CAN YOU OR DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO CAN HELP WITH SOME INFO. >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux **** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://junkscience.com ** http://snopes.com ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA ...don't leave life without Jesus, please... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 12:45:21 -0400 From: RFISCHEL-at-osc.state.ny.us Subject: fsj: Holley Commander 950 info Go here for Holley info on Commander 950 throttle body fi: http://www.martelbros.com/holley/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/C950/C950TB/C950TB.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:53:18 -0700 From: Jeff Ganyard Subject: fsj: new to the list, some questions... Hi Folks, glad I found you! I bought a '76 Waggy last December when I moved to Tahoe. I think I got a good deal, cosmetically it's in pristine condition, had to have some engine work done it but it's doing great now. There are a couple things I want know more about. Suspension - what there is pretty worn out, the thing gets down on its knees in turns. Since I'm going to be replacing the shocks, what would folks suggest? And what else should I look at while I'm at it? I live in Tahoe, the vehicle is driving about 50 miles a week at most, I stay on the asphalt, dirt, gravel, I stay off big rocks and such. Tires - My little thrill ride last winter sliding sideways on some black ice,well I am committed to putting studded tires on next year. Recommendations? Seats - After 25 years the front bench seat is getting a little worn. Instead of rebolstering it, I'd like to replace it with a pair of highbacks. Anyone know of make and model I can find in a junkyard for an easy swap? Gas Tank - She puts out a lot of fumes and when I had her in S.F. parked on a steep incline she leaked when full. I crawled under and found a disconnected hose and line coming out of the top rear of the tank. I connected them. The hose ran about 18" and stop at what I could only guess was a breather valve bolted to the frame. I know this is not right. Where is the limit check valve and the vapor return system located (it was in the left rear wheel well on CJ, but I can't find it on the Waggy) and how is it laid out? Does the '76 even use that kind of system? I'm pretty much in the dark here. Naturally the Chiltons manual was not any help here... FSJ mailing lists - what's the difference between fsj-at-digest.net and FSJ-list-at-yahoogroups.com? thanks for putting up with me and thanks in advance for the help! jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:35:08 -0500 From: bobandkara-at-juno.com Subject: fsj: need "spring over" info I'm intrigued by this idea of a front spring over. What sort of modifications need to be made to the rear end, as well as the driveshaft. Don't the u-joints wear out? Thanks Bob 86 GW ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:36:03 -0400 From: "MadMarx" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection Dan, I know this for a fact. The venturi diameter on the 670cfm Pro-Jection is TOO LARGE to fit on the stock 2 barrel intake. The butterflies will only be able to open a tiny bit before they hit the edge of the holes in the 2 barrel intake. The butterflies are about 50% or more larger than the hole on the intake. At minimum you will need to buy this adapter from Holley, .......... P/N: 17-47 (Holley 2300/Motorcraft 2-bbl. flange) to make it work. Mark (I run a 502-2 projection with adapter to stock 2 barrel for now, performer soon) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Black" To: "Full Size Jeeps" Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 12:08 PM Subject: Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection > "Ray (lists)" said: > {- All of the Holley TBI systems that I have seen require a 4 bbl intake. > {- There might be some that work on a 2 bbl intake now, but I have never seen > {- them advertises (I haven't looked). > {- > {- I'm running Holley Pro-Jection 4Di on an Edelbrock Performer manifold. IOW, > {- you have the right manifold. > > {- ----- Original Message ----- > {- From: Alexander Wall > {- > I have an Edelbrock Performer 4-bbl intake on my engine, but the Holley > {- TBI systems > {- > all say 1- or 2-bbl. Is there an after-market fuel-injection system that > {- would work on > {- > this intake? > > Actually, this touches on what I was mentioning yesterday. > > Holley USED to have a 2D system, a 4D, and a 4Di. Despite the 2D being > called "2bbl" (because of the number of injectors, I believe), it used a > 4bbl manifold (as did the 4D and 4Di). These were all labeled as their > "Pro-Jection" line. > > However, NOW Holley seems to only have 2bbl and 1bbl stuff for their > "Pro-Jection" line, and at least the one I checked (the 670cfm 2bbl for > AMC V8s, among others, which is P/N 502-20S) do seem to actually use the > 2bbl manifold. So you could probably plug this into a stock AMC 360 on > the 2bbl models (including all stock GWags, at least standard > U.S. versions) to replace the 2bbl Motorcraft carb, and you wouldn't > have to change anything else. > > But for 4bbl stuff, they now have the Commander 950 line, which is > supposed to be a small step up from the old Pro-Jection 4Di. The > Commander 950 line seems to all be "4Di", meaning digital interactive -- > you can adjust the stuff with a PC, and at least the new Commander 950 > series actually requires a PC to do it (there apparently aren't any > alternative dials or whatever to make the adjustments manually). But > they don't label the Commander 950s with "4Di"; they just are. > > Meanwhile, the stuff in their section labeled "4D/4Di Fuel Injection" > seems to be individual components and setups for replacing stock fuel > injection, including MPI systems. So you might be able to put together > an old system if you know all the individual parts, but I can't check > that since I don't know all the original parts. I wouldn't suggest this > even if you could; it will probably be more expensive than buying the > complete Commander 950 kit, if you can do it at all. > > Oh, and BTW, it looks like they have 2bbl Commander 950 systems, too, so > you could probably use one of those without replacing a stock 2bbl > manifold, too. (This is for others on the list; I know you said you > already have the Performer 4bbl.) > > So anyway, the one you probably want for the Performer 4bbl intake is > the Commander 950 4bbl, 650cfm. You might be able to go with the 700cfm > model, but from responses from this list and another friend to my > question from yesterday, sounds like the 650cfm is the way to go. (See > my next, shorter email.) This is the setup I plan to get; I plan to > start ordering parts within the next week, including the Performer > intake (Edelbrock). > > Holley's Commander 950 page is at > http://192.41.49.217/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/C950/C950TB/C950TB.html > (using IP because some DNS along the way is screwed up; it's > www.holley.com if things are working). The one I mentioned that I plan > to get and that you probably want is the first one. Summit > (www.summitracing.com) has it for $1320 (now just $6 less than the > 700cfm version, in case you really want that one instead). Jeg's > (www.jegs.com) has it for $1330. I think their kit includes everything > (software, O2 sensor, etc.), but does not include a PC, a 4bbl manifold, > or a controllable distributor. I haven't heard anything yet about a > controllable distributor that will work with the AMC 360/401, so we may > not have an option to control timing with this system. I personally may > install one sometime with a dial or slide control under the dash. :) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----- > I wish all those people who say I'm an angry loner would just shut up > and stay the hell away from me. > > -- Tom Stoudt > -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:39:16 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: insurance companies... the saga of the little wagoneer continues. state farm came up with a very similiar "fair market" value. Problem is the statistical basis on their value is severely flawed. They point to ONE vehicle similiar to mine sold in March. When I searched all the US I found more vehicles and a better pricing range. When I searched on Cherokees instead of wagoneers I also came up with a more realistic price. I also talked with a buddy that is a sales manager for a dealership, seems this racket is "common" now. He did point out that the insurance companies still use the NADA guide to determine value. the loan value is 2,200 the trade-in value is 2,400 and the retail is $3,775, and that does consider the mileage, but not the aftermarket add-ons. State farm is saying around $2,800. I looked at an '88 cherokee on a lot last night that had $3788 on the window... it was no where near as nice as mine... I believe that retail book is a fair price considering the condition and accessories. State Farm said they're going to hire an appraiser... anybody know an attorney in the everett area? ;) (a buddy recommended two, one is out for 8 weeks the other doesn't have a phone number in the book... ;) this really stinks... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux **** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://junkscience.com ** http://snopes.com ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA ...don't leave life without Jesus, please... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:45:06 -0500 From: Ken Gaines Subject: fsj: RE: need "spring over" info Bob, First of all, you should check with your state Department of Public Safety about the regulations governing lift kits and such. In some states (Maryland, for example), SOA's (spring-over axle lifts) are illegal. A vehicle with this type of lift will not pass state safety inspection requirements. Other states (Virginia, for example) have restrictions on front bumper height. Virginia state law mandated that the front bumper be no greater than 24" from the ground when measured with the vehicle unloaded and sitting on level ground. Mechanically speaking, a front spring-over axle lift can cause several problems. The increased driveshaft-universal joint angle can eventually lead to premature u-joint failures. The use of a double-cardan u-joint in conjunction with this type of life might help alleviate this problem. The steering geometry will definitely be changed and at the very least, a complete front-end alignment will be required. IMHO, the use of a dropped pitman arm is the best way to cure this problem. The front sway bar may be a source of trouble as well. The links that connect the bar to the truck frame will probably require lengthening to prevent strange things from happening to the vehicle's handling. I believe that you can purchase longer-than-stock sway bar links from several aftermarket suppliers. I have seen these links available for CJ models. I haven't really looked for these parts for an FSJ. The rear end is a completely different matter. An FSJ doesn't require an SOA lift in the rear. In 1996, I installed a TrailMaster 3" add-a-leaf lift and a set of BFG 31x10.50x15 AT's into a 1986 GW and it worked beautifully. The handling was solid and it rode better than it did when it came from the factory (with Rancho RS5000 shocks). The only pitfall I have come across with lifting an FSJ was the rear sway bar mount. If I remember correctly, the rear sway bar will require some "mechanical agitation" (I used a "tanker bar" and a come-along) in order to get it to re-align itself with the mount on top of the rear differential housing. I got around this by grinding the sway bar bolt tip to a point and using a hammer to force it into place. The mounting bolt is about 1/2" in diameter and made of really coarse steel...you will have a tough time stripping the threads from it when using a hammer to put it back where it goes. Again, IMHO, cutting the mounting bracket from its original point of attachment and re-welding it to the diff housing could prevent future problems from arising. I am not a fan of SOA lifts. If you want to life an FSJ, go with either a new set of spring packs or an add-a-leaf lift kit. The add-a-leaf kit isn't that expensive and it is pretty easy to install. I believe that the add-a-leaf is the way to go. Good luck with the lift. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:38:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: insurance companies... A: Make sure that vehicle they analysed wasn't a Grand Wagoneer with major flaws! Call the seller and see if you can contact the new owner (It may be about the same condition as your present rig! After the accident that is! Remember I bought one that was not bad looking for less than $1000) If it goes to court, they will bring up the previous writeoff, and the fact you were paid out once on it. (been there, done that, and the court upheld it. Judge made it sound like I wanted to be paid twice for the rig, and they didn't care how much I put into fixing it!)    From: john the saga of the little wagoneer continues. state farm came up with a very similiar "fair market" value. Problem is the statistical basis on their value is severely flawed. They point to ONE vehicle similiar to mine sold in March. When I searched all the US I found more vehicles and a better pricing range. When I searched on Cherokees instead of wagoneers I also came up with a more realistic price. I also talked with a buddy that is a sales manager for a dealership, seems this racket is "common" now. He did point out that the insurance companies   still use the NADA guide to determine value. the loan value is 2,200 the trade-in value is 2,400 and the retail is $3,775, and that does consider the mileage, but not the aftermarket add-ons. State farm is saying around $2,800.   I looked at an '88 cherokee on a lot last night that had $3788 on the window... it was no where near as nice as mine... I believe that retail book is a fair price considering the condition and accessories. State Farm said they're going to hire an appraiser... anybody know an attorney in the everett area? ;) (a buddy recommended two, one is out for 8 weeks the other doesn't have a phone number in the book... ;) this really stinks... john         ---- ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:08:01 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: insurance companies... On Fri, 11 May 2001, James Blair wrote: >-->A: Make sure that vehicle they analysed wasn't a Grand Wagoneer with >-->major flaws! >--> If it goes to court, they will bring up the previous writeoff, and >-->the fact you were paid out once on it. (been there, done that, and the >-->court upheld it. Judge made it sound like I wanted to be paid twice for >-->the rig, and they didn't care how much I put into fixing it!) >--> >-->   From: john >--> >-->the saga of the little wagoneer continues. thanx... the argument about the previous rebuild wouldn't be a factor, it was rebuilt, reinspected, retitled and reinsured. ...not likely that this will ever end up in court... Besides the rebuild thing has not once come up as an issue from either insurance company, even though my company could tell during the inspection where the repairs had been (the inner fender shows signs of the accident, but functions fine), and they knew of the previous claim. So, based on the way things are done here, there has been no mention of the previous claim. Only the mileage and their idea of what "fair market value" is. this whole "market value" thing smacks of a class action lawsuit. The purpose of the bluebooks was to eliminate the excessively subjective nature of valuation... IF you go to a car lot you see the price and it's book or higher, you may get it for less than book, but not this much under book... :) The "market value" is not a realistic measure of the value. How can you tell the condition of a vehicle sold in the paper by a private party? On a 12 yr old car??? You can't figure it out without looking at it, driving it and having a wrench examine it! Most people sell their cars in the paper for more than what the dealers offered on a trade in, even though that same car would have sold for more on a lot! It's a ripoff, you can't expect to find a replacement vehicle for what these things may have sold for! It is not right... The insurance companies have rewritten the rules to their advantage. So, state farm is hiring an appraiser... they offered $2,800. I want $3,775 as based on the "low" NADA book value for my rig with the current mileage, excluding the $8,000 worth of add on parts, recent repairs and so on... remember that the book value from three different on-line book values ranged from $4,800 through 7,632.... the $3,775 is what the dealer said it was worth, and he's seen the vehicle... I'm sure if I had put the little wagoneer up for sale at that price I'd be meeting someone at the airport... ;) right? (before the accident that is... ;) The claims person said we're "too far apart"... so she's going to hire an appraiser... fine with me... while they hold out on settling it's costing them $45 a day to provide me with a rental car. It's not worth going to court over a grand... still, it ticks me off that they do this to people. It ain't right. How many folks get rolled over by insurance companies like this? If I had a core engine right now I'd put all the stock components back on this thing and let them haul it off... anyone got a spare core 4.0L laying around? ;) (like I've got time to do all that... rofl... :) Either way, I'm going to keep the jeep and either fix it so I can drive it, since I can't afford to replace it with what they're giving me, or use the engine in the '67 J-100 Panel. I should be able to recover some of my money by selling off the rest of the parts... anyway you look at it, this really stinks... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux **** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://junkscience.com ** http://snopes.com ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA ...don't leave life without Jesus, please... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1316 **************************