From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sun May 13 13:26:26 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, May 12 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1317 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #1316 Re: fsj: new to the list, some questions... Re: fsj: need "spring over" info Re: fsj: new to the list, some questions... Re: fsj: new to the list, some questions... Re: fsj: new to the list, some questions... fsj: new news fsj: Eddie Does The Skagit Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection fsj: can i swap dodge magnum 318 for amc 360/ or just the intakes? fsj: Re: FSJ info fsj: Re: 84JEEP GRAND WAGONEER Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection Re: fsj: RE: need "spring over" info FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:51:23 -0700 From: Mike Dillon Subject: Re: Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection I believe the Holly 2 Barrels are all based on the GM 454 TBI body. The bore on these is 2", the SB TBI bodies are real close to the stock 2 barrel carb bore, but the bore spacing is wider on the TBI body, vs the carb so a spacer/adapter is still needed. Mike D. > Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:36:03 -0400 > From: "MadMarx" > Subject: Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection > > Dan, I know this for a fact. The venturi diameter on the 670cfm Pro-Jection > is TOO LARGE to fit on the stock 2 barrel intake. The butterflies will only > be able to open a tiny bit before they hit the edge of the holes in the 2 > barrel intake. The butterflies are about 50% or more larger than the hole on > the intake. At minimum you will need to buy this adapter from Holley, > .......... P/N: 17-47 (Holley 2300/Motorcraft 2-bbl. flange) to make it > work. > Mark (I run a 502-2 projection with adapter to stock 2 barrel for now, > performer soon) > - ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan Black" > To: "Full Size Jeeps" > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 12:08 PM > Subject: Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection > > > "Ray (lists)" said: > > {- All of the Holley TBI systems that I have seen require a 4 bbl intake. > > {- There might be some that work on a 2 bbl intake now, but I have never > seen > > {- them advertises (I haven't looked). > > {- > > {- I'm running Holley Pro-Jection 4Di on an Edelbrock Performer manifold. > IOW, > > {- you have the right manifold. > > > > {- ----- Original Message ----- > > {- From: Alexander Wall > > {- > I have an Edelbrock Performer 4-bbl intake on my engine, but the <<<< CLIPPED >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 18:57:18 EDT From: FourXDave-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #1316 i had a nice, lifted 401 widetrack 77 Cherokee Chief, fancy wheels, BFG A/T 33's that came to nebraska from southern colorado (much less rust than a nebraska truck), and it got nailed by an errant (sleeping??) ford ranger driver, one afternoon... the best thing that happened in that deal was an appraiser came out... i finally got 2000 and kept / parted out the truck which is about double what they were talking originally... i also have had a FSJ on a spring-over lift, and i honestly dont recommend it for FSJ's, my old J4000 was spring-over from the factory as were some other models, but the transfer case was much farther back in the frame due to the long adapter between the bellhousing and the T-18... my spring-over wag with Q-Trac was not a very good set-up, had to drop the engine and trans/t-case down in the frame to keep a reasonable driveshaft angle up front (made flat plates that bolted to the factory eng. mt tower holes, and duplicated the bolt pattern 3?? inches down from there i have had nice superlift 3 inch spring lifts, and they are great ( that was what the Big Cheif had ) and i made a home-made lift with add-a-leaves, etc.. on my old J10, and that was great also, but springover just doesn't seem to be the way to go for an FSJ.. if it was a CJ, i would not hesitate to springover it... OR.. if it had a Scrambler body on it, and you could scoot the engine and trans back... anyway, i digress DAB<>< ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:30:53 -0500 From: Cyber Phoenix Subject: Re: fsj: new to the list, some questions... Gas tanks.. Do you want a plastic one or a metal one? Your suspension system, needs new leaf springs..not re-arced ones, that don't last for long .. if at all.. and some super heavy shocks, prefer the ones with the springs... leaf springs .. it's about 600. to 650. a set. but will last another twenty years.. providing you plan on keeping it that long.. Always have studded tires in winter.. and have them sipped as well esp. where you are at... Those FSJ's are Heavy.... As for seats.. try http://www.jcwhitney.com if that does not work.. get back to be, and I will dig in my vast and huge number of bookmarks concerning Jeeps and things related to.. R.J. 80 Jeep J-10 Honcho purring like a Mountain Lion...... "1FSJ"-at-yahoogroups.com and "FSJ_SE" -at-yahoogroups.com ..for FSJ people in south east Jeff Ganyard wrote: > Hi Folks, > > glad I found you! I bought a '76 Waggy last December when I moved to > Tahoe. I think I got a good deal, cosmetically it's in pristine > condition, had to have some engine work done it but it's doing great > now. There are a couple things I want know more about. > > Suspension - what there is pretty worn out, the thing gets down on > its knees in turns. Since I'm going to be replacing the shocks, what > would folks suggest? And what else should I look at while I'm at it? > I live in Tahoe, the vehicle is driving about 50 miles a week at > most, I stay on the asphalt, dirt, gravel, I stay off big rocks and > such. > > Tires - My little thrill ride last winter sliding sideways on some > black ice,well I am committed to putting studded tires on next year. > Recommendations? > > Seats - After 25 years the front bench seat is getting a little worn. > Instead of rebolstering it, I'd like to replace it with a pair of > highbacks. Anyone know of make and model I can find in a junkyard for > an easy swap? > > Gas Tank - She puts out a lot of fumes and when I had her in S.F. > parked on a steep incline she leaked when full. I crawled under and > found a disconnected hose and line coming out of the top rear of the > tank. I connected them. The hose ran about 18" and stop at what I > could only guess was a breather valve bolted to the frame. I know > this is not right. Where is the limit check valve and the vapor > return system located (it was in the left rear wheel well on CJ, but > I can't find it on the Waggy) and how is it laid out? Does the '76 > even use that kind of system? I'm pretty much in the dark here. > Naturally the Chiltons manual was not any help here... > > FSJ mailing lists - what's the difference between fsj-at-digest.net and > FSJ-list-at-yahoogroups.com? > > thanks for putting up with me and thanks in advance for the help! > jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:56:05 -0500 From: Cyber Phoenix Subject: Re: fsj: need "spring over" info no... I don't think so... the u- joints seem fine for the most part.. there is no mods that I have heard of.. just reverse the shackles... R.J. bobandkara-at-juno.com wrote: > I'm intrigued by this idea of a front spring over. What sort of > modifications need to be made to the rear end, as well as the driveshaft. > Don't the u-joints wear out? > > Thanks > > Bob > 86 GW ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 18:50:59 -0700 From: Jeff Ganyard Subject: Re: fsj: new to the list, some questions... At 7:30 PM -0500 5/11/01, Cyber Phoenix wrote: >Gas tanks.. Do you want a plastic one or a metal one? I'd rather just fix the vapor system on this one, I don't think there is anything wrong with the tank. anyone have any details on that return line, the limit check valve, etc? If I get some spare money, I'll probably look into an Aero secondary tank, but that won't be for a while. >Your suspension system, needs new leaf springs..not re-arced ones, that >don't last for long .. if at all.. >and some super heavy shocks, prefer the ones with the springs... >leaf springs .. it's about 600. to 650. a set. but will last another >twenty years.. providing you plan on keeping it that long.. 20 years? Anything as an intermediate measure? What should I look for in shocks? Any recommendations? >Always have studded tires in winter.. and have them sipped as well >esp. where you are at... Those FSJ's are Heavy.... What is 'sipped' - I don't know the term. Any recommendations? >As for seats.. try http://www.jcwhitney.com >if that does not work.. get back to be, and I will dig in my vast and >huge number of bookmarks concerning Jeeps and things related to.. Again I was hoping for a budget option. There's a bunch of salvage yards in Reno, I've seen some sites online of different folks rebuilds and they mention Celica buckets and Escort seats as fitting in without much fuss. I'd like to find something requiring as little modifications as possible - something with the same bolt pattern, similar height, etc... >R.J. >80 Jeep J-10 Honcho >purring like a Mountain Lion...... thanks! jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 22:19:05 -0500 From: Cyber Phoenix Subject: Re: fsj: new to the list, some questions... If you don't want to spend any money.. might as well get rid of it now.. hehehe.. Sipped is when the tire place cuts lines in the tread in tires and or snow tires, there is a 20 % better braking power because of it.. I have done this with lots of tires on my FSJ's, cutlass olds and Subaru .. I am good friends with some tire people.. I definitely noticed.. You can try just shocks.. but they will wear out faster with bad springs.. Get the most you can afford, heavy duty truck shocks.. Those seats, will not fit.. and good luck in getting seats from a junk yard! Seats tend to be pretty messed up in junk yards.. even then see about them getting re-done! R.J. Jeff Ganyard wrote: > At 7:30 PM -0500 5/11/01, Cyber Phoenix wrote: > >Gas tanks.. Do you want a plastic one or a metal one? > > I'd rather just fix the vapor system on this one, I don't think there > is anything wrong with the tank. anyone have any details on that > return line, the limit check valve, etc? If I get some spare money, > I'll probably look into an Aero secondary tank, but that won't be for > a while. > > >Your suspension system, needs new leaf springs..not re-arced ones, that > >don't last for long .. if at all.. > >and some super heavy shocks, prefer the ones with the springs... > >leaf springs .. it's about 600. to 650. a set. but will last another > >twenty years.. providing you plan on keeping it that long.. > > 20 years? Anything as an intermediate measure? What should I look for > in shocks? Any recommendations? > > >Always have studded tires in winter.. and have them sipped as well > >esp. where you are at... Those FSJ's are Heavy.... > > What is 'sipped' - I don't know the term. Any recommendations? > > >As for seats.. try http://www.jcwhitney.com > >if that does not work.. get back to be, and I will dig in my vast and > >huge number of bookmarks concerning Jeeps and things related to.. > > Again I was hoping for a budget option. There's a bunch of salvage > yards in Reno, I've seen some sites online of different folks > rebuilds and they mention Celica buckets and Escort seats as fitting > in without much fuss. I'd like to find something requiring as little > modifications as possible - something with the same bolt pattern, > similar height, etc... > > >R.J. > >80 Jeep J-10 Honcho > >purring like a Mountain Lion...... > > thanks! > jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:39:24 EDT From: DoctorNor-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: new to the list, some questions... In a message dated 5/11/01 11:19:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cyberphoenix-at-qwestonline.com writes: > If you don't want to spend any money.. might as well get rid of it now.. > hehehe.. > Aint that the ever loving truth...my 89 loves to help me spend my money... But I wouldnt have it any other way! It rules! Tony C. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 01:32:41 -0400 From: mccracken Subject: fsj: new news it's been awhile since i have last threw in a couple cents so i thought i would bring you up to date on me cherokee. i sent her in a few weeks ago to get some major body work done that rang up to a grand total of $540, then i ordered a new intake manifold and carb but the morons sent me the wrong stuff so i sent it back and it should be here tomorrow or the next. The only bad thing is i already ripped the top of my engine and now she sits...exposed!!! i covered her up the best i could now i sitting and waiting. plans are in the mix now to apply the hurculiner to the floors and bed to make her waterproof and "beat the hell out of"-proof. no pictures to date but that is also in the blueprints. i'd like you guys to see the sinkhole i'm in. that's about it for now but further updates will insue. ya'll take it easy and keep wheelin'. nick and roscoe's revenge ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 22:49:29 -0700 From: "Ed Pedersen" Subject: fsj: Eddie Does The Skagit Stop me before I post again..... Posted some more pics to my web site...this time of the Skagit Valley in BC about 90 miles east of Vancouver. The Skagit Valley runs about 20 miles south to the U.S.border where Skagit Lake begins. Most of the lake is in the U.S., where the lake and surrounding area are contained in the North Cascades National Park system. The U.S.side has a small campground about 3 miles south of the border. The area here is known as the Hozomeen area, named after the Hozomeen Mountains in the surrounding area. (Somebody correct me on this if I'm wrong) Most of the lake is accessible only by boat from it's southern end, there are no roads that run the length of the lake. The road in from the Canadian side is a very good gravel road, nice and wide for the numerous campers and RV's pulling boats to the lake, either to stay at the small campsite on the Canadian side, or to travel a few extra miles to the Hozomeen campground. You can start at my main page at; http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1428517 OR As usual, you can jump straight to the Skagit Valley album at; http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1428517&a=12896719&f=0 Personally, I've found it better to go to the main page, click on the album you want to look at and open it in the "album viewer". Anyways, enjoy.. Boy, I hadn't realized how extensive my local travels have been until I started posting some of the pics... Believe it or not, the pics are only 1/20 of the places I've seen in and around BC. Eddie in Vancouver ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 02:25:07 -0700 From: Paul & Megan Kershner Subject: Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection I rebuilt my 360 with Edelbrock Performer Cam, Manifold and 650 cfm Carb and am very happy with it. I don't know about the F.I., but the engine performs a lot better with the 650... pk Dan Black wrote: > > Now the shorter email I promised. > > Just wanted to thank everybody for their feedback about the fuel > injection question (which Commander 950 to get, 650cfm or 700cfm). From > everybody who replied and from a friend of mine who knows a lot about > it, it sounds like the 650cfm version is the one to get for an AMC 360 > or even an AMC 401. Sounds like the engine just won't draw in any more > air than that. And even if it's borderline to get enough power for the > 700cfm (minimum 225hp recommended), it still probably won't get anywhere > near the max recommended for the 650cfm (max 300hp recommended), at > least not without a supercharger or nitrous or something (which I don't > plan to do). > > I would still welcome more comments, but barring any really different > and convincing experiences, I plan to get the 650cfm one, and will > probably start ordering parts today or next week. > > Thanks again! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The more you observe politics, the more you've got to admit that each > party is worse than the other. > -- Will Rogers > -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 06:01:46 -0500 From: bobandkara-at-juno.com Subject: fsj: can i swap dodge magnum 318 for amc 360/ or just the intakes? I have a dodge ram with a 318 magnum. Can I swap motors with my 86 gw? If not, could I swap the fuel injection system on the 318 for the 4 bbl intake on the 360? Thanks! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 09:12:43 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: FSJ info At 08:07 AM 5/12/01 -0700, John Larsen wrote: >Hi John, I liked your site, I have an '86 Waggy that has been and is being >modified. I run with a little club out of Delta BC called PORC, Pacific >Off Road Club >http://www.stormloader.com/porc/ and as >I am doing a major front end refit, I am putting the leafs on top of the >axle, I am looking for any tips and or any data that might make this task >a little easier. I have done considerable mods, Chev 350, 280 hp+ change >front spring perches, stereo, better front bucket seats, new paint, >converted to the '63 grille, blah blah, but this undertaking is major. I >am relocating the dual batteries to the rear space once occupied by the >spare tire, that used to house an extra gas tank, dropping the engine / >tranny-transfercase 2" to lower the center of gravity, and to help with >the drive line angles, and other minor additions to make offroading more >enjoyable - safer. As I am getting conflicting info regarding the best way >to deal with the spring over and steering - driveline issues, I would like >to know if you have had any feed back from cyberspace Jeepers who have >attempted such a feat. If so, please forward any info, and once I get this >thing back on it's feet, the family and I would like to visit your neck of >the woods and talk Jeep with you. >Thanks for anything you send my way, >Best regards >John Larsen the spring over isn't that hard. A friend down in California did it on his Super Wagoneer and video taped the install. I have no way of making a copy of it but I'm only a couple hours south of you and if you want to wander down would be happy to show it to you. Also, my '67 Panel has been converted (I think) and my son's old '67 J3000 has a spring over. Olympic 4x4 in snohomish will do it for a fee, can't remember what they quoted me on my '83 J10, less than $800 if memory serves me correctly. your rig looks pretty cool. http://www.stormloader.com/porc/j%26jmemb.jpg http://www.stormloader.com/porc/members_and_rigs.htm I just went up to get a tranny for my 4.0L conversion on SuperDawg up at Gary's Auto Parts up there on the Fraser River. We went up and back easily in a day. A very nice trip. Took the ferry back over and did some antique shopping in the little town across the river... for some reason I'm drawing a total blank on the names of the towns... maple ridge... fort something... langley? Anyway, nice drive, not far away... We could have an FSJ fest down here and you could come down. There's a guy that runs the backroad driver's group, I think his late 70's cherokee has a spring over as well. The big issue with the spring over is getting the steering and tie road correct, on your '86 you will also need to deal with the track bar setup. Why they put track bars (aka panhard bars) on a leaf spring vehicle puzzles me. The xj's with coil springs I can understand... and when those track bars go bad on an xj you experience the "wobble of death", or the "death wobble"... :) I would say that you'd be fine running without the panhard bar. Let me know when you have time to wander down, I'll rally the troops. :) I'm in a very, very sad state right now... my '88 xj wagoneer limited was totalled on may 3, my '83 J10 Stepside has a bad #2 cylinder and awaits the '96 xj 4.0L install, and my '67 J-100 panel is waiting for a driveline swap down in Olympia... in other words, I'm JEEPLESS... :( ttyl, john ====================================================================================== For Full Size Jeep help see: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech - technical information http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs - pictures of FSJ's http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/digests - list digests more info at: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/FSJ-info.html ====================================================================================== john-at-wagoneers.com remember, leaving life with out Jesus isn't recommended... ===================================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 10:01:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: 84JEEP GRAND WAGONEER A: If everything is dead, check the back of your ammeter for burn out. (happened to me on all 3 of my FSJs so far) If everything else comes on, but the motor won't turn over, either the battery or starter is dead or the wiring is haywire someplace.    From: john I didn't get a chance to reply earlier...       larry kinchen forwarding this to the FSJ lists... john On Thu, 10 May 2001, larry kinchen wrote: TRYING TO FIND WIRING DIAGRAMS FOR MY 84 GRAND WAGONEER I SHUT THE ENGINE OFF &I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO START IT WITH THE KEY SINCE.ICHANGED THE STARTER,IGNITION SWITCH,&SOLENIOD JUMPED THE NEUTRAL SAFETYSWITCH STILL NOTHING.THE WIRING DIAGRAMS I HAVE ARE TO SMALL TO READ.CAN YOU OR DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO CAN HELP WITH SOME INFO.      ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 10:22:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: fuel injection From: Dan Black Dan Black wrote: However, NOW Holley seems to only have 2bbl and 1bbl stuff for their "Pro-Jection" line, and at least the one I checked (the 670cfm 2bbl for AMC V8s, among others, which is P/N 502-20S) do seem to actually use the 2bbl manifold. So you could probably plug this into a stock AMC 360 on the 2bbl models (including all stock GWags, at least standard U.S. versions) to replace the 2bbl Motorcraft carb, and you wouldn't have to change anything else. A: You still need the Ford 2 bbl adapter. They have a 1 bbl line that swaps onto the Jeep 6 cyl 1 bbl intake too. (snip) Dan Black: I haven't heard anything yet about a controllable distributor that will work with the AMC 360/401, so we may not have an option to control timing with this system. I personally may install one sometime with a dial or slide control under the dash. :) A: Maybe DUI finally finished hooking up a controllable GM dist for AMCs? ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 10:33:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: RE: need "spring over" info A: If you have a pre-'80 WT Cherokee you can swap in a '76ish Chev Blazer front axle (slightly wider axle, but front spring pads line up). That way it'll look factory and have no problem with steering! I HATE AALs, unless it's a factory old main leaf added in #2 position with the eyes cut off. AALs are fine for flat road riding, but try driving around Seattle with them in, and you'll be eating headliner or wearing down your teeth from the rattle! From: Ken Gaines Bob, First of all, you should check with your state Department of Public Safety about the regulations governing lift kits and such. In some states (Maryland, for example), SOA's (spring-over axle lifts) are illegal. A vehicle with this type of lift will not pass state safety inspection requirements. Other states (Virginia, for example) have restrictions on front bumper height. Virginia state law mandated that the front bumper be no greater than 24" from the ground when measured with the vehicle unloaded and sitting on level ground. Mechanically speaking, a front spring-over axle lift can cause several problems. The increased driveshaft-universal joint angle can eventually lead to premature u-joint failures. The use of a double-cardan u-joint in conjunction with this type of life might help alleviate this problem. The steering geometry will definitely be changed and at the very least, a complete front-end alignment will be required. IMHO, the use of a dropped pitman arm is the best way to cure this problem. The front sway bar may be a source of trouble as well. The links that connect the bar to the truck frame will probably require lengthening to prevent strange things from happening to the vehicle's handling. I believe that you can purchase longer-than-stock sway bar links from several aftermarket suppliers. I have seen these links available for CJ models. I haven't really looked for these parts for an FSJ. The rear end is a completely different matter. An FSJ doesn't require an SOA lift in the rear. In 1996, I installed a TrailMaster 3" add-a-leaf lift and a set of BFG 31x10.50x15 AT's into a 1986 GW and it worked beautifully. The handling was solid and it rode better than it did when it came from the factory (with Rancho RS5000 shocks). The only pitfall I have come across with lifting an FSJ was the rear sway bar mount. If I remember correctly, the rear sway bar will require some "mechanical agitation" (I used a "tanker bar" and a come-along) in order to get it to re-align itself with the mount on top of the rear differential housing. I got around this by grinding the sway bar bolt tip to a point and using a hammer to force it into place. The mounting bolt is about 1/2" in diameter and made of really coarse steel...you will have a tough time stripping the threads from it when using a hammer to put it back where it goes. Again, IMHO, cutting the mounting bracket from its original point of attachment and re-welding it to the diff housing could prevent future problems from arising. I am not a fan of SOA lifts. If you want to life an FSJ, go with either a new set of spring packs or an add-a-leaf lift kit. The add-a-leaf kit isn't that expensive and it is pretty easy to install. I believe that the add-a-leaf is the way to go. Good luck with the lift. Ken ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1317 **************************