From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Jul 20 10:54:08 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, July 20 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1390 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: don't touch the y-pipe! fsj: Re: Check Valve Woes fsj: diff covers Re: fsj: don't touch the y-pipe! [Fwd: fsj: don't touch the y-pipe!] fsj: Re: Thorley Headers for V8 fsj: Thorley Headers for V8 and Ignition Info fsj: in search of 12v tube type radio fsj: more decisions... sound system... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:25:06 EDT From: BWFerg-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: don't touch the y-pipe! When I brought my 83 Wag into a shop to try and rig up a custom exhaust, he said that very thing. He couldn't understand that with such a heavy duty engine, why it wasn't a dual exhaust. His shop was mostly for high-performance type vehicles, so he had never worked on a Jeep before, and it made perfect sense. He told me he could rig one up, but it was pricey. Just adding my limited experience... Bryan Ferguson 1983 Jeep Wagoneer Ltd. In a message dated 7/19/01 1:44:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cyberphoenix-at-qwestonline.com writes: > I always thought with a V8,.. that the factory should have made it with Duel > exhausts? that makes sense.. Why did they make it a Y anyway? > > just a thought.. > > R.J. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:36:23 -0500 From: Landon Tesar Subject: fsj: Re: Check Valve Woes The AMC Y-Pipe is a perfect example of an industrial ventilation tap and taper design. It's tested and documented to provide the most efficient union of 2:1. For the RPMs we usually run these motors at, and the amount of money to invest, this is the way to go. For you, Steve, since you drive like a Bat out of Memphis, maybe dual exhaust/catalytic converters is better. Duals probably has problems getting around the gas tank though. - - Landon > Uhoh,... > NOW I gotta know WHY about the Y pipe?? ;) > JeepNut > > > Michael Shimniok wrote: > > > > I agree, try 2.5" pipe. I find 3" opens it up on the highway well, but I > > feel........... > > Replace everything AFTER the Y pipe but leave it the heck alone! > > > > Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:38:29 -0500 From: Landon Tesar Subject: fsj: diff covers I wonder how much I got in my diff after pulling the boat out... Hmm. - - Landon > Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: fsj: Re: diff covers] ] > > I believe the 727 vent is inside the bellhousing on the pump body or > whatever that thing is that bolt onto the front of the transmission with the > input shaft sticking out. Anyway, there is a small hole in the upper part. > Unfortunately, it looks very dificult to put any kind of hose on it at all. > Several people on the list long ago were successfull in filling their 727s > up with enough water to ruin the friction material. > > - -brad ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:53:38 -0500 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: Re: fsj: don't touch the y-pipe! Really? how much was it? Where did you have it done at? If i ran one on the other side, could it cause any damage? Could I go right under the rocker panels and come out in front of the back tires? BWFerg-at-aol.com wrote: > > When I brought my 83 Wag into a shop to try and rig up a custom exhaust, he > said that very thing. He couldn't understand that with such a heavy duty > engine, why it wasn't a dual exhaust. His shop was mostly for > high-performance type vehicles, so he had never worked on a Jeep before, and > it made perfect sense. He told me he could rig one up, but it was pricey. > Just adding my limited experience... > > Bryan Ferguson > 1983 Jeep Wagoneer Ltd. > > In a message dated 7/19/01 1:44:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > cyberphoenix-at-qwestonline.com writes: > > > I always thought with a V8,.. that the factory should have made it with Duel > > exhausts? that makes sense.. Why did they make it a Y anyway? > > > > just a thought.. > > > > R.J. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:10:56 -0500 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: [Fwd: fsj: don't touch the y-pipe!] Thanks Pat! Just trying to figure a way to make it breathe better and get more top end! I was thinking well...the new 360 with a RV cam.. I was expecting maybe giving my self almost whip lash after taking it off the line at a red light? And I still have a rattling flow cat converter..(broke inside) and I don't like the sounds it makes.. I was expecting it to be more smooth, then a old truck.. then again it IS a old truck.. Thanks! R.J. Return-Path: Delivered-To: cyberphoenix-at-qwestonline.com Received: (qmail 4876 invoked by uid 0); 19 Jul 2001 19:58:03 -0000 Received: from web13806.mail.yahoo.com (216.136.175.16) by 63.231.195.135 with SMTP; 19 Jul 2001 19:58:03 -0000 Message-ID: <20010719195802.63935.qmail-at-web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [128.218.8.99] by web13806.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:58:02 PDT Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:58:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Pat Hines Subject: Re: fsj: don't touch the y-pipe! To: "R.J. Baynum" In-Reply-To: <3B571CDE.54AAD4B1-at-qwestonline.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Apparently, in order to keep the fuel tank within the frame, place the spare under the vehicle, and have 4wd the factory had only a bit of space left to run exhaust pipes, plus since single mufflers last longer than duallies do, there is that issue as well. About a year or so ago, we discussed the exhaust pipe efficiencies ad nauseum and discovered that a 2.5 inch Y-pipe system going into a single three inch system including the catalytic converter and muffler, externally and internally, was the most efficient system, better even than a 2.5 inch full dual system. You figure that by finding the area of the pipe cross section together with the internal pipe surface parasitic drag, much higher on two 2.5 inch pipes than on a single three inch pipe. Pat - --- "R.J. Baynum" wrote: > I always thought with a V8,.. that the factory > should have made it with Duel > exhausts? that makes sense.. Why did they make > it a Y anyway? > > just a thought.. > > R.J. > > Michael Shimniok wrote: > > > > When I had a shop do up a custom 3" system > for me, they hacked off the stock > > tubes just below the manifolds and welded 3" > tube to 'em and ran 'em down to > > a > > very poorly made y-pipe below, complete with > clearance problems, sloppy > > joints, unnecessary bends, etc. It is a holy > mess under there. Makes me > > sick > > esp given how much I paid for the whole > setup. > > > > I have been told 'it doesn't matter' but as > bad as some of the sections are, > > and as detrimental as turbulence is supposed > to be, I can't help but wonder > > how much power gets robbed in this jacked up > home made y pipe they slung > > together. My plan is to pull a decent y-pipe > out of the junkyard and graft > > it > > in (now that I have a mig welder). > > > > The stock y-pipe is not easy to duplicate > properly and anyway I don't believe > > you need more than 2" pipe coming off each > bank of the motor. My other truck > > has a 3" system from just behind the Y pipe > back and it is a beautiful job > > and > > the system works very nicely. Unless the > original pipes are really jacked, > > or > > unless you can find a factory-built Y-pipe, > I'd leave 'em alone. Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:58:58 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Thorley Headers for V8 On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Wes Stepp wrote: Antelope, Thorley Headers are emissions approved/certified and don't have to be modified if you have a stock oil pan. They also have a lifetime warranty unless you modify them like I have. I am currently waiting on a custom radiator I ordered from www.evanscooling.com so I don't have the motor running yet. I expect to have the installation finished in a month or so. My headers were purchased at a performance shop in the Los Angeles area called The Service Center. I can not currently locate the receipt for the headers, I think it is in my jeep at the shop that is doing the work. If you go to the Thorley web site http://www.thorleyheaders.com/tech_basics_triy.html they explain the tri-y design concept. There is also a Dealer locator menu that you can use to find a distributor near you. I believe the headers are designed to bolt up to a stock exhaust configuration but your best bet is to call or email Thorley with those type of questions. They also have a FAQ section on their web site that may answer some questions and the dealer can also help. Each vehicle is different so I really can't address your installation. As far as the ignition system, I have purchased an HEI DUI distributor from Performance Distributors: http://www.performancedistributors.com/duiamc.htm and a Crane Fireball model HI-6 TRC Multispark Capacitive Discharge Ignition with adjustable timing retard http://www.cranecams.com/ignition1/hi6tr.htm. I have the severe racing environment, epoxy encapsulated unit with lots of great features and gives more bang for the buck than a comparable MSD unit. I use a Crane HI-6 with in my 95 Caprice with a LT1 motor and have had no problems at this point. The HEI distributor I have is of the Davis Unified Ignition type that has performance upgraded components such as a hi-output coil. It has advantages and disadvantages to the external coil systems. I wanted to condense/simplify the setup and add reliability and contingency capabilities. If my external Crane Ignition unit was to fail I can unplug it and make a connection inside the distributor to the internal control module and continue on my way. In most things I do, it is really the little details that make or break the success of it - as the saying goes 'the devil is in the details'. Accel makes a very nice HEI distributor for AMC V8 and you might want to look into it as it is emissions approved and uses very hi quality components http://www.mrgasket.com/acclnew.htm#Anchor-ACCEL-11481 , talk to a dealer and get the HEI model. It doesn't use the 'coil in cap' design like the DUI distributor so you can use it with the TFI if desired. Pay close attention to ground and power connections. The Motorcraft components referenced in the tech article are probably a much cheaper way to go especially if you already have a Motorcraft Distributor and want to get Hi-Performance plus the parts are readily available at parts stores and that is a big advantage. The article indicates that 78- 90 V8 used the Motorcraft distributor and I was not aware of that as my 76 uses the Prestolite POS. I haven't looked into the Motorcraft ignition parts and didn't even know about that upgrade until a few days ago when I looked at the IFSJA Technical Library and read the article about Ignition Upgrades in the Electrical section http://www.ifsja.org/tech/electrical/ignitionupgrade.shtml. Without actually investigating it myself I think it is best to just say it looks interesting and I absolutely agree with some of it. I see nothing bad about the recommendations made in that article and it might have changed my decisions if I was aware of it at the time I was purchasing components. I recommend you spend the money and get the best wires available if you go to a hi-energy ignition system. In my opinion they come from Magnecor: http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/main.htm Anything less is inferior, potentially a bunch of hype and a possible waste of money. There is lots of very good technical info on their web site, especially a couple great articles about ignition wire design and construction. I plan on eventually switching to Computer Controlled Ported or Throttlebody Fuel Injection with a Crank Trigger. That is one of the reasons I modified my headers for O2 sensors, the other reason is to allow monitoring of the mixture with a gauge. I've done a lot with the cooling system and explained some of it at the end of my wesdog 'New Guy on List' post on 7/15. I have more info if you want it. Enough for now. Regards, Wesdog - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Frantz" To: "Wes Stepp" Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 11:46 AM Subject: Re: Thorley Headers for V8 Hey Wesdog, Thanks for the info it is greatly appreciated. How much $$$ and time did that cost you? What is a tri-y design? What kind of performance improvement did you obtain? I have very limited garage resources so I'm a little leary installing headers that I'm going to have to modify (is the deep oil pan stock or did you add this?). The Edelbrock headers come with some kind of smog certified sticker, which I don't know if smog stations would care or notice if I had headers on my exhaust manifold as long as it passed? Have you done the TFI Ignition upgrade? I have some mixed feelings about installing Ford parts on my Jeep for a few different reasons... Any thoughts? Antelope Wes Stepp wrote: > Antelope, > > I am completing the rebuild of my 401 and have purchased a set of Thorley > headers. They are the top of the line for the AMC V8's. The flanges that > mate to the heads are almost twice as thick as other brands. They are a > tri-y design which has advantages over other header styles: > http://www.thorleyheaders.com/tech_basics_triy.html . I had to modify mine > to clear the deep oil pan and also to add bungs for O2 sensors. I had the > headers 'Alumicoated' to complete the package. I attached photos for your > reference. I had hooker headers on years ago and had constant problems with > leaks so this time I went with a better quality set. > > Regards, > Wesdog ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 19:32:03 -0700 From: "Wes Stepp" Subject: fsj: Thorley Headers for V8 and Ignition Info FSJ Gang, This is a response I made to a IFSJA list member. Thought some on this list might be interested also. If anyone cares to correct my assertions that is fine with me as I am still learning at the ripe middle age of 44. I have a 76 S Chief that I've owned since 1980. I am currently rebuilding the 401 and adding some enhancements. One nice thing about getting older, I make more money now and can afford to to the type of mods to my jeep I couldn't afford when I originally bought it. Regards, Wes At 03:04 PM 7/19/01 -0700, you wrote: Antelope, Thorley Headers are emissions approved/certified and don't have to be modified if you have a stock oil pan. They also have a lifetime warranty unless you modify them like I have. I am currently waiting on a custom radiator I ordered from www.evanscooling.com so I don't have the motor running yet. I expect to have the installation finished in a month or so. My headers were purchased at a performance shop in the Los Angeles area called The Service Center. I can not currently locate the receipt for the headers, I think it is in my jeep at the shop that is doing the work. If you go to the Thorley web site http://www.thorleyheaders.com/tech_basics_triy.html they explain the tri-y design concept. There is also a Dealer locator menu that you can use to find a distributor near you. I believe the headers are designed to bolt up to a stock exhaust configuration but your best bet is to call or email Thorley with those type of questions. They also have a FAQ section on their web site that may answer some questions and the dealer can also help. Each vehicle is different so I really can't address your installation. As far as the ignition system, I have purchased an HEI DUI distributor from Performance Distributors: http://www.performancedistributors.com/duiamc.htm and a Crane Fireball model HI-6 TRC Multispark Capacitive Discharge Ignition with adjustable timing retard http://www.cranecams.com/ignition1/hi6tr.htm. I have the severe racing environment, epoxy encapsulated unit with lots of great features and it gives more bang for the buck than a comparable MSD unit IMO. I use a Crane HI-6 with in my 95 Caprice with a LT1 motor and have had no problems at this point. The HEI distributor I have is of the Davis Unified Ignition type that has performance upgraded components such as a hi-output coil. It has advantages and disadvantages to the external coil systems. I wanted to condense/simplify the setup and add reliability and contingency capabilities. If my external Crane Ignition unit was to fail I can unplug it and make a connection inside the distributor to the internal control module and continue on my way. In most things I do, it is really the little details that make or break the success of it - as the saying goes 'the devil is in the details'. Accel makes a very nice HEI distributor for AMC V8 and you might want to look into it as it is emissions approved and uses very hi quality components http://www.mrgasket.com/acclnew.htm#Anchor-ACCEL-11481 , talk to a dealer and get the HEI model. It doesn't use the 'coil in cap' design like the DUI distributor so you can use it with the TFI coil if desired. Pay close attention to ground and power connections. The Motorcraft components referenced in the tech article are probably a much cheaper way to go especially if you already have a Motorcraft Distributor and want to upgrade to Hi-Performance. Plus the parts are readily available at parts stores and that is a big advantage. The article indicates that 78- 90 V8 used the Motorcraft distributor and I was not aware of that as my 76 uses the Prestolite POS. I haven't looked into the Motorcraft ignition parts and didn't even know about that upgrade until a few days ago when I looked at the IFSJA Technical Library and read the article about Ignition Upgrades in the Electrical section http://www.ifsja.org/tech/electrical/ignitionupgrade.shtml . Without actually investigating it myself I think it is best to just say it looks interesting and I absolutely agree with some of it. I see nothing bad about the recommendations made in that article and it might have changed my decisions if I was aware of it at the time I was purchasing components. I recommend you spend the money and get the best wires available if you go to a hi-energy ignition system. In my opinion they come from Magnecor: http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/main.htm Anything less is inferior, potentially a bunch of hype and a possible waste of money. There is lots of very good technical info on their web site, especially a couple great articles about ignition wire design and construction. I plan on eventually switching to Computer Controlled Ported or Throttlebody Fuel Injection with a Crank Trigger. That is one of the reasons I modified my headers for O2 sensors, the other reason is to allow monitoring of the mixture with a gauge. I've done a lot with the cooling system and explained some of it at the end of my wesdog 'New Guy on List' post on 7/15. I have more info if you want it. Enough for now. Regards, Wesdog - ----- Original Message ----- From: Antelope To: Wesdog Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 11:46 AM Subject: Re: Thorley Headers for V8 Hey Wesdog, Thanks for the info it is greatly appreciated. How much $$$ and time did that cost you? What is a tri-y design? What kind of performance improvement did you obtain? I have very limited garage resources so I'm a little leary installing headers that I'm going to have to modify (is the deep oil pan stock or did you add this?). The Edelbrock headers come with some kind of smog certified sticker, which I don't know if smog stations would care or notice if I had headers on my exhaust manifold as long as it passed? Have you done the TFI Ignition upgrade? I have some mixed feelings about installing Ford parts on my Jeep for a few different reasons... Any thoughts? Antelope Wesdog wrote: Antelope, I am completing the rebuild of my 401 and have purchased a set of Thorley headers. They are the top of the line for the AMC V8's. The flanges that mate to the heads are almost twice as thick as other brands. They are a tri-y design which has advantages over other header styles: http://www.thorleyheaders.com/tech_basics_triy.html . I had to modify mine to clear the deep oil pan and also to add bungs for O2 sensors. I had the headers 'Alumicoated' to complete the package. I attached photos for your reference. I had hooker headers on years ago and had constant problems with leaks so this time I went with a better quality set. Regards, Wesdog ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 19:53:38 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: in search of 12v tube type radio one of my ebay buyers, the guy that bought my old SuperWagoneer radio, is looking for any 12v Tube Type radios from cars. He's a collector of radios (and a Ham). Please email me off list and I'll get the msg to him. thanx, john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! paypal? sign up here: https://www.paypal.com/refer/pal=john%40wagoneers.com - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 00:20:12 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: more decisions... sound system... Slowly but surely I'm putting together a sound system. This is the first time I've ever done it this way. Kind of fun. In the past I lived with what came in the vehicle or went down to the wrecking yard and picked up the cleanest looking unit out of the bin... :) so far the system consists of: Sony XR-CA620X (am/fm/sw cassette) http://www.jackys.com/product/product.asp?prod_id=1583&qcatname=Car Audio&qcatid=35 Sony CDX-646 10cd changer http://www.xplodsony.com/products/?CATEGORY=Changers&MD=CDX-646 I already have a set of Pioneer surface mount three way speakers for behind the seats, they're "ok" and they'll fit... but the primary transducers are in the final selection stage. I thought I had it narrowed down to the Sony XS-HL635, but the guy I bought the CD changer from recommended the Pioneer below. And it's a little bit less... I've listened to the Sony's and they sound great, but looking at the specs I think the Pioneer's might be a little bit "cleaner", hard to say... any thoughts? Pioneer or Sony... pls cc me in response... So far the best prices are $99+9.50 for the Pioneer and $109.95 + 11.95 for the Sony systems... Speakers - Component Systems Item Pioneer TS-C1653 Sony Xplod XS-HL635 Buy Price $179.95 $189.95 Sensitivity 90 dB 90 dB Frequency Response 30 - 32k Hz 30 - 30k Hz RMS Power Range (Watts) 2-40 2-45 Peak Power Handling (Watts) 120 180 Design 2-way 2-way Tweeter Design Dome Dome Tweeter Composition Cloth Polyetherimide Woofer Composition IMPP Rigilite H.O.P. Woofer Surround Butyl Rubber Rubber Impedance (Ohms) 4 4 Top-mount Depth (Inches) 2 7/16 2 1/4 Cutout Diameter (Inches) 5 5 1/16 thanx, john ==================================================================== If it exhibits ambulatory and auditory characteristics consistent with current data on a small waterfowl with flat bill, short neck and webbed feet, it would be illogical to assume that it is anything other than a duck. However, in this era of post-modern license with basic linguistic commodities, our view is only relative and if we say we know the truth, we will be labeled a hateful, narrow-minded, intolerant bigot. So a duck is only a duck when you embrace his world view, otherwise, it's just a bunch of funny looking parts. ==================================================================== ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1390 **************************