From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Aug 3 09:45:30 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, August 3 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1410 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: brake tool issue fsj: Liberty heritage showing? fsj: tonka update... fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #1409 RE: fsj: model designators fsj: I really hate drum brakes... fsj: brake drums, brakes shoes, the easy way fsj: Re: I really hate drum brakes... fsj: Jeep Photography... fsj: Re: I really hate drum brakes... fsj: steering wheel alignment fsj: Re: Liberty heritage showing? fsj: Re: I really hate drum brakes... fsj: RE: Re: Liberty heritage showing? fsj: Re: I really hate drum brakes... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:23:43 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: brake tool issue if the springs on these drum brakes were on posts the tool I have would work... but it's a spring connected into an opening on the shoes... I'll try to take a picture of it later, need to get working... wife is upset that she's without wheels. :) john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 23:01:06 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: Liberty heritage showing? Sorry, it isn't exactly FSJ, but thought it might be interesting to many of you... Ol' John might start driving one after this is pointed out ... There were some threads recently about the ugly little poor replacement for the XJ... A fellow Jeeper pointed out something I had not noticed but can see now that he said it.... if you look at that thing front on, slightly off center, you can see the Mercedes influence. It kinda has that slanted back headlight-with-the-slight-bulge-over-it look that one of those little Mercedes cars has... I don't know which one of the numbers they call it, they all run together after a while, 300, 450, 5.95 marked down from a low low KMart price of 8.50... I wonder if anyone has access to sales figures for this thing. Not to be mean, but I kinda hope it flops. It just isn't a Jeep to me... But then unless they start making cars that aren't all rounded off I guess I'll never be happy again, snif, snif... The best body style ever made has been out of production for 10 years now. Show me a vehicle with the glove box in a logical place and I'll show you an SJ! JeepNut - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:11:02 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: tonka update... just got the tow truck... fire truck is way too expensive... :( uploaded new pix to my tonka directory http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Tonkas john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 00:39:45 -0400 From: William Killian Subject: fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #1409 > From: Alexander Wall > Subject: Re: fsj: RE: Another enviro caused catastrophy > > FWIW - I don't think that anyone was placing fish lives OVER human ones, neither when > the legislation was passed, nor when the series of bad decisions were made, leading to > these unfortunate deaths. There was no legislation nor regulations. Just a bureaucratic foul up by someone who didn't think. > From: "Vince Orr" > Subject: fsj: Re: Re: fsj-digest V1 #1405 > > Stop! You're breakin' my heart!!! I't's bleeding me to death!! > > And I take pleasure in annoying Liberals....... The politics are silly. A HUGE problem with this country is the polarization. The right and left have both been taken over by extremism. > From: john > Subject: fsj: more FSJ's for my collection > > my tonka collection grows... (only have FSJs in it... ;) > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Tonkas/ > > just got a red cement mixer today, very nice.... > I got an old red and yellow dump truck the other day, it's rough... > I won a blue stake truck, and a red and yellow dump yesterday Got the camper? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 21:46:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: RE: fsj: model designators A: Then there is the MAs and MBs running around. From: mpolkkidodge-at-netscape.net MJ- Comanche YJ- Early Wrangler 1984-87 Square Head Lights None more than I can think of john wrote: On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, David Charles Gedraitis wrote: all right, I feel a bit silly, but this has been an issue with me for a while-what is what? I know most Jeeps by the consumer type-names, so I have no idea what is an XJ or WJ or what, so can you point me in the right direction? ~dave CJ - Civilian Jeep - aka bobtail DJ - Dispatch or delivery Jeeps KJ- Liberty SJ - the full size jeeps, 1963 through 1991 (4 made in 1992) TJ - recent vintage bobtails XJ - downsized Cherokee/Wagoneer 1984 - 2001 WJ - Grand Cherokee 1999 and up ( all new design, Quaddradrive!) VJ - Jeepster late 40's vintage ZJ - Grand Cherokee 1992(?)or3 through 1998 did I forget any? :) john     ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:52:06 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: I really hate drum brakes... anyone near snohomish, washington willing to drop by with either a tool box of specialized brake tools... or some C4... :) or a lending hand... :) I can not get this stupid spring on... if the parking brake actuator falls off the spring goes on, but then I can't get the actuator back on. Now the clips holding the shoes in place both fell off... This parking brake setup was obviously not designed for routine replacements... :) In the meantime... Jim, you out there??? :) Any tips? Care to stop by? :) problem is down on the left side, this is how it was: http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/P8010008.JPG http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/ALL-rear-wj-parkingbrake-disc-ds.jpg This is where I'm at: this is the evil part http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/thespring.jpg this is where the evil part is supposed to be. http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/thespringshome.jpg this is when I came in... http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/sproing.jpg well, going to try again... prays are welcome... :) john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 23:02:48 +0000 From: Gary Clark Subject: fsj: brake drums, brakes shoes, the easy way You can work successfully on drum brakes shoes with only a pair of pliers, no special tools required, no straining with return springs. The following technique has worked well for me for a good 30 years. Do not mount the shoes with the retaining coil springs to the backing plate first, do it last with the pliers. First hook the return spring into the proper hole in the shoe while you hold the shoe in your hand, next, without stretching the spring, hook the other end of the spring on the center retaining post. Then, place the top end of the shoe on its proper pivot point, and the shoe into the notches of the cylinder push rods. You should be able to release the shoe at this time, the spring will hold it in place at 30 to 45 degree angle out from the backing plate. Do the same to the second shoe. If you have done it correctly the shoes will look like a butterfly wings. At this time you can place the separater bar and (if on the rear) the parking brake cable. Next, mount the spring that spans the bottom of the two shoes. Use your hand to press and hold one of the shoes to the backing plate,(this will stretch the springs with minimal effort), use your other hand to place the retaining pin thru its hole (it should stay there on its own), next, put one of the coil spring retainers over the pin and hold it there with your thumb from the hand that is holding the shoe. Then, do the same for the coil retaining spring and the second spring retainer. Now, use the pliers to clasp the edges of the retainer to press and twist it into place. Do this to the other shoe. Finally, you can install the adjuster by shortening it as far as it can go. Double check that everything is in its proper place, as things can move quite a bit. The exact order of this may vary with your vehicle, and I may have forgotten something, but just remember to do the coil retaining springs last, and with a little practice, the only tool you will need is a good pair of pliers. To take shoes off, just reverse this proceedure. Gary 73 Wag - with four drums ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 22:56:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: I really hate drum brakes... A: Sorry John, I was out in Issaquah, checking out the store I work in tomorrow and Sat. (got a cool cig lighter plug in black light for $20, plus it was payday!) Do you have the hook tool for putting in tire plugs? I used mine to pull those springs in place. I wouldn't be much more than technical help if I was there, since my right arm (I'm right handed) is messed up from colliding with the door guide rail while pulling an Evergreen warranty 360 AMC engine back in after our delivery. If anyone is looking for a rebuilt engine, I wouldn't! (nuff said!)    From: john anyone near snohomish, washington willing to drop by with either a tool box of specialized brake tools... or some C4... :)     or a lending hand... :) I can not get this stupid spring on... if the parking brake actuator falls off the spring goes on, but then I can't get the actuator back on. Now the clips holding the shoes in place both fell off... This parking brake setup was obviously not designed for routine replacements... :) In the meantime... Jim, you out there??? :) Any tips? Care to stop by? :) problem is down on the left side, this is how it was: http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/P8010008.JPG http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/ALL-rear-wj-parkingbrake-disc- ds.jpg This is where I'm at:          this is the evil part http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/thespring.jpg         this is where the evil part is supposed to be. http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/thespringshome.jpg         this is when I came in... http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/sproing.jpg well, going to try again... prays are welcome... :) john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 23:08:45 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Jeep Photography... I just got my 128M smartcard for my Olympus C-700... the "old" 32M card held about 57 rather large High Quality images... The viewfinder reports 257 available... :) How much was DSL again? ;) john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 23:15:04 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: I really hate drum brakes... At 10:56 PM 8/2/01 -0700, James Blair wrote: >A: Sorry John, ... > Do you have the hook tool for putting in tire plugs? I used mine to >pull those springs in place. I wouldn't be much more than technical help >if I was there, since my right arm (I'm right handed) is messed up from tire plug??? would it be strong enough? at this point technical help is fine. My hands are improving in spite of the brake wrestling... I don't think I can get a straight pull on it, you'd have to see it... it's not like a normal sized brake setup... As much as I hate drum brakes I can do the rear on an FSJ in a day usually... :) john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 23:18:16 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: steering wheel alignment When I replaced the track bar on my XJ my steering wheel is now off center by about 20 degrees... If I recall correctly there is a "turnbuckle" type sleeve off the steering arm that can be loosened up and then turned to straighten the steering wheel, right??? (it's the same on almost all american vehicles... right???) I think there are two nuts to loosen and then I turn that section, which way? The wheel needs to go to the left... The old track bar was really bad... had the front end aligned with it that way... If I'd known that the dealer is charging $152 for the track bar I would have had the front end shop install one complete for $130 when they did the front end alignment... last track bar I bought was only about $80... they faked me out this time... and the one I got is defective, so I get to install it twice, oh happy joy joy... ;) thanx, john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 06:43:52 -0500 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: fsj: Re: Liberty heritage showing? Very good observation. It does look like a Mercedes. Seems to me that lots of folks are responding to this "scaled down" type of 4wd vehicle. Trouble is, the crash tests just released on many of these vehicles show their Achilles heel. My brother bought a Subaru the other day. He has a 4wd C*&^$ pickup but says it drives hard and his wife can't drive a "real" 4wd. The sticker prices on serious 4wd were scaring them off as well. And the HAD to have a new vehicle instead of a good used one. And they cited gas mileage. Chicago is lousy with these type of vehicles now. Personally, I go for heavy, tough, comfortable vehicles. Ask me what it was worth to me when that C*&^$ caprice rear ended the Rez runner the other day when my two oldest daughters were driving home from school! The Rez Runner took all the impact through the hitch and sheared off both motor mounts in order to save my kids from injury. And it drove away and was easily repaired! I'll pay $5 per gallon on my gas guzzler for that kind of protection any day! Best insurance policy in the world. - --Vince '81 Wagoneer - ----- Original Message ----- From: "JeepNut" To: "_FSJ List" Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 11:01 PM Subject: fsj: Liberty heritage showing? > Sorry, it isn't exactly FSJ, but thought it might be interesting to many of > you... Ol' John might start driving one after this is pointed out ... > There were some threads recently about the ugly little poor replacement for > the XJ... A fellow Jeeper pointed out something I had not noticed but can > see now that he said it.... if you look at that thing front on, slightly off > center, you can see the Mercedes influence. It kinda has that slanted back > headlight-with-the-slight-bulge-over-it look that one of those little > Mercedes cars has... I don't know which one of the numbers they call it, > they all run together after a while, 300, 450, 5.95 marked down from a low > low KMart price of 8.50... > I wonder if anyone has access to sales figures for this thing. > Not to be mean, but I kinda hope it flops. It just isn't a Jeep to me... > But then unless they start making cars that aren't all rounded off I guess > I'll never be happy again, snif, snif... The best body style ever made has > been out of production for 10 years now. Show me a vehicle with the glove > box in a logical place and I'll show you an SJ! > > JeepNut > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... > '92 Cherokee > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 06:51:30 -0500 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: fsj: Re: I really hate drum brakes... Geeze John. I wish I lived closer. I'll be coming as far as western Iowa this weekend but it's still a long way to your house.... ;) I've never seen a brake job I couldn't do yet. Really wish I could help you out. Have you tried clamping the shoes in place (c-clamps) when you put on the springs? Is the brake cylinder fully compressed? - --Vince '81 Wagoneer - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" To: Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 11:52 PM Subject: fsj: I really hate drum brakes... > anyone near snohomish, washington willing to drop by with either a tool box > of specialized brake tools... or some C4... :) or a lending hand... :) > > I can not get this stupid spring on... if the parking brake actuator > falls off the spring goes on, but then I can't get the actuator back on. > > Now the clips holding the shoes in place both fell off... > > This parking brake setup was obviously not designed for routine > replacements... :) > In the meantime... Jim, you out there??? :) Any tips? Care to stop by? :) > > problem is down on the left side, this is how it was: > http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/P8010008.JPG > http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/ALL-rear-wj-parkingbrake-disc - -ds.jpg > > This is where I'm at: > this is the evil part > http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/thespring.jpg > this is where the evil part is supposed to be. > http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/thespringshome.jpg > this is when I came in... > http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/sproing.jpg > > well, going to try again... prays are welcome... :) > > john > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------- > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 08:58:42 -0400 From: George Milam Subject: fsj: RE: Re: Liberty heritage showing? I still think that the Liberty looks like a Grand Cherokee swallowed a VW Beetle. George '89 Grand Wagoneer Vermont - -----Original Message----- From: Vince Orr [mailto:vorr6-at-home.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 7:44 AM To: JeepNut; FSJ List Subject: fsj: Re: Liberty heritage showing? Very good observation. It does look like a Mercedes. Seems to me that lots of folks are responding to this "scaled down" type of 4wd vehicle. Trouble is, the crash tests just released on many of these vehicles show their Achilles heel. My brother bought a Subaru the other day. He has a 4wd C*&^$ pickup but says it drives hard and his wife can't drive a "real" 4wd. The sticker prices on serious 4wd were scaring them off as well. And the HAD to have a new vehicle instead of a good used one. And they cited gas mileage. Chicago is lousy with these type of vehicles now. Personally, I go for heavy, tough, comfortable vehicles. Ask me what it was worth to me when that C*&^$ caprice rear ended the Rez runner the other day when my two oldest daughters were driving home from school! The Rez Runner took all the impact through the hitch and sheared off both motor mounts in order to save my kids from injury. And it drove away and was easily repaired! I'll pay $5 per gallon on my gas guzzler for that kind of protection any day! Best insurance policy in the world. - --Vince '81 Wagoneer - ----- Original Message ----- From: "JeepNut" To: "_FSJ List" Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 11:01 PM Subject: fsj: Liberty heritage showing? > Sorry, it isn't exactly FSJ, but thought it might be interesting to many of > you... Ol' John might start driving one after this is pointed out ... > There were some threads recently about the ugly little poor replacement for > the XJ... A fellow Jeeper pointed out something I had not noticed but can > see now that he said it.... if you look at that thing front on, slightly off > center, you can see the Mercedes influence. It kinda has that slanted back > headlight-with-the-slight-bulge-over-it look that one of those little > Mercedes cars has... I don't know which one of the numbers they call it, > they all run together after a while, 300, 450, 5.95 marked down from a low > low KMart price of 8.50... > I wonder if anyone has access to sales figures for this thing. > Not to be mean, but I kinda hope it flops. It just isn't a Jeep to me... > But then unless they start making cars that aren't all rounded off I guess > I'll never be happy again, snif, snif... The best body style ever made has > been out of production for 10 years now. Show me a vehicle with the glove > box in a logical place and I'll show you an SJ! > > JeepNut > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... > '92 Cherokee > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 07:58:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: fsj: Re: I really hate drum brakes... John, I and everyone else thought you were working on normal drum brakes...I see from the pic: http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/P8010006.JPG and http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-rearbrakes/thespingshome-wo-pbrakeactuator.jpg what your situation is...E-brake drum pads for a disk brake system. I see that you were using a vise grips, but I think you are using the wrong ones...I looked at the vise grips (http://www.vise-griptool.com/index.asp) site and they have some bent nose pliers that would seem to work better...like... http://www.americantool.com/pi/toolSrch.asp?itemId=01542L3&autoBrand=18&rollImg=18&autoProduct=5&autoSubCat=0&size=large (sorry for the long link). Find a really big hardware store, they would probably have what you need. I'm not sure what you are going to do now that thing are broken a bit...I wish I was there to help, but... Good luck... Greg Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1410 **************************