From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Aug 8 11:04:02 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, August 8 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1420 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: I hate DSPO's fsj: vacuum gauges and chopsticks... fsj: Re: vacuum gauges and chopsticks... fsj: er, "original" fixes... fsj: Re: front/rear main seal replacement fsj: RE: resolution and what was this guy thinking? fsj: AMC Motor Info Re: fsj: Re:FSJ Diesel in Pakistan Re: fsj: I hate DSPO's FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 19:02:22 -0500 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: fsj: Re: I hate DSPO's My '81 Wagoneer had a clothespin in the carburator to hold the choke plate open........ - -Vince - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 6:49 PM Subject: fsj: I hate DSPO's > > > > > One of the DSPO's of my '79 Chero didn't like > > the looseness of the window crank on the driver's > > door window, so guess how he/she fixed it?? > > > > Did they buy a new crank? NO. Did > > They attached the window crank with JB Weld, > > that's what they did. > > > > > I really despise crap fixes like that. > > > > I'm curious if anyone can top that DSPO "fix"?? AMC has me beat with alot of > the OEM fixin's and I found one of my rear windows supported in the up > position with a chopstick in the sill but that certainly can't top the use of > JBW. > > Rob Harrison > 85 Grand Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 16:54:24 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: vacuum gauges and chopsticks... >Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 13:24:29 -0600 >From: "JC Jones" >Subject: RE: fsj: timing adjustment >================================== >You can optomize your timing with a vacuum gauge. Connect to manifold >vacuum, then advance the timing (distributor advance disconnected and >plugged) until you reach the maximum idle vacuum you can achieve, then >back off the timing until your vacuum drops 2 in. This will set your >timing perfectly, compensating for altitude, engine wear, fuel, etc. >================================== wow, this makes sense even... EXCELLENT advice JC, thanx! This will help my son and me get his 289 dialed in... my timing light, which is probably older than he is, fell apart fixing superdawg... well the trigger switch broke, then we took it apart... ;) as far as previous owners, I think the Chopstick holding the window up is the funniest, funnier than: - - a 2x4 holding the rear window up - - plywood seat base - - a "dairy award" sign as a floor, just laying on the floor - - the exhaust system on superdawg... - - the hole in the bottom of the engine from a piston, "engine leaks" but turns over... but I'm not so sure it's as funny as the liquid nails we found in the '80 Cherokee... I'm sure I'll remember more... and maybe I'll even share some of my creative fixes... ;) (be quiet paul, curtis and jim... ;) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 19:20:52 -0500 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: fsj: Re: vacuum gauges and chopsticks... JC: Sounds like a good system. So if you do this vacuum timing and your idle speed is higher or lower than factory, do you reset idle speed and then re-adjust per procedure? - --Vince - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" To: "full size jeep list" Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 6:54 PM Subject: fsj: vacuum gauges and chopsticks... > >Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 13:24:29 -0600 > >From: "JC Jones" > >Subject: RE: fsj: timing adjustment > >================================== > >You can optomize your timing with a vacuum gauge. Connect to manifold > >vacuum, then advance the timing (distributor advance disconnected and > >plugged) until you reach the maximum idle vacuum you can achieve, then > >back off the timing until your vacuum drops 2 in. This will set your > >timing perfectly, compensating for altitude, engine wear, fuel, etc. > >================================== > > wow, this makes sense even... EXCELLENT advice JC, thanx! This will > help my son and me get his 289 dialed in... my timing light, which is > probably older than he is, fell apart fixing superdawg... well the trigger > switch broke, then we took it apart... ;) > > as far as previous owners, I think the Chopstick holding the window up > is the funniest, funnier than: > > - a 2x4 holding the rear window up > - plywood seat base > - a "dairy award" sign as a floor, just laying on the floor > - the exhaust system on superdawg... > - the hole in the bottom of the engine from a piston, "engine leaks" but turns over... > > but I'm not so sure it's as funny as the liquid nails we found in the '80 Cherokee... > > I'm sure I'll remember more... and maybe I'll even share some of my creative > fixes... ;) (be quiet paul, curtis and jim... ;) > > john > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) > ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. > ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 22:04:20 -0400 (EDT) From: David Charles Gedraitis Subject: fsj: er, "original" fixes... The carb gasket on the original 2 bbl carb on my '61 chrysler deteriorated, kept it going two weeks while waiting for a gasket using of all things (I was on the road at the time and out of the silicone I normally carry) chewing gum-I was going to replace it when I arrived somewhere, but it worked so well I left it on there until my gasket came in :-) ~dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 22:45:49 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: front/rear main seal replacement >Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 16:41:12 -0400 >From: Nikola Vouk > >From experience or knowledge, has anybody had luck with replacing the >rear main seal, and possibly the front main seal by taking the oil >pan off. I read in the haynes manual how to do this, but how good of >a seal do you get with this and what are the risks involved. My >engine has 226,000 miles on it. Would it be worth paying somebody to >do this for me, since I lack experience (and time). This method works fine if everything is in good shape. If the crank and or bearings are too worn, then the rear main seal won't seal cause the crank wobble will keep it from sealing. The risk is that the it'll still leak and all you're out is a few dollars for the seal and some time. However, this is a fairly high mileage engine -- even for an AMC. I used this method to replace the rear main on my Wagoneer (with similar mileage and an inexperienced owner) and discovered that due to excessive crank wobble "walking" the seal out, some DSPO had used adhesive to keep it in place. I devised an ingenious scheme for getting the seal out of the block without removing the crank from the engine or the engine from the vehicle. It didn't work. It'd work great if the seal had just been kinda stuck rather than glued. I had the motor rebuilt while the engine was out. >My rear and front main seal are gone and I really want to fix the >problem. Also, on the subject, my oil pressure meter in the dash >pretty much always reads 80+ psi when in use and lowers only when the >oil starts running low (a guage of oil level if you will). >Occasionally it hangs in the 40+ range. The manual says the car >should hang out at 13 psi and climb to 75 psi at cruising speed. I'm told those gauges are for entertainment purposes only. I test drove a '91 GW that always read 80 psi too. Made me kinda nervous too, but it's better than being at zero. I wouldn't worry about it, but I'd also intall an aftermarket gauge since low oil pressure is a common cause of engine failure in the AMC 360. The oil pumps can fail suddenly if they are mistreated a little. My '71 came with idiot lights so I installed gauges. Actually went a little overboard -- oil pressure, engine temp, tranny temp, voltmeter, tach, and vacum. Now I just have to remember to keep my eyes on the road. As for "ideal" oil pressure, what I've heard is 10 psi at idle, and 10 more psi for each increase of 1000 rpm. With 40K miles on my engine I run about 20 psi at idle (engine warmed up) and about 55 psi on the highway. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 '88 Bronco ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 22:35:20 -0600 From: "JC Jones" Subject: fsj: RE: resolution and what was this guy thinking? This is a candidate for the Darwin Award... What a MORON! ================================== JC Jones 79 J-10 "Max" 84 Grand Wagoneer "Eeyore" 86 Cherokee XJ "Junior" http://www.wagoneer.net ================================== - -> -----Original Message----- - -> From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On - -> Behalf Of john - -> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 3:10 PM - -> To: Undisclosed recipients: - -> Subject: fsj: resolution and what was this guy thinking? - -> - -> - -> phil, if I reduce the resolution on my camera and take that - -> "incredible" shot, I won't have the pixels to publish it. - -> While it may take space on my harddrive - -> and time to load/upload/download... it's worth it. A - -> couple of my pictures - -> from a lesser digital camera made it into a Jeep Calendar - -> printed 8x10! So, nope, I'll do the work, or make you - -> suffer, and keep the pixels to the - -> max... ;) - -> - -> Here's a guy who doesn't appreciate the value of his (or - -> someone elses) - -> vehicle: - -> http://www.bogginfreaks.com/gallery/albums/cjashowandshine/acr.mpg - -> what was he thinking??? there were people in this thing - -> too??? sheesh... what a waste... of course that's probably - -> why our insurance rates went up last year too... ;) - -> - -> john - -> - -> ---- - -> - -> ------------------------------------------------------------- - -> ------------ - -> ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) - -> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** - -> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they - -> mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just - -> isn't recommended... - -> ------------------------------------------------------------- - -> ------------ - -> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 21:52:19 -0700 From: "Wes Stepp" Subject: fsj: AMC Motor Info To FSJ list Here is some good information on AMC motors I received from Dick Datson as a result of purchasing some AMC books from him on ebay. I thought some in the group may benefit greatly from his advice especially us new guys. I wish I had made contact with him prior to my current 401 rebuild process. I have edited his comments to condense the information but have not changed the content or meaning. Dick is the editor of a AMC Turbo newsletter that contain lots of good info on the AMC FSJ motors. Thanks Dick for your insight and advice! ************ - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 4:30 AM Subject: Re: Wes's 401 Jeep Cherokee Wes, I can appreciate your surprise at seeing the AMC material. It is different in more ways than is immediately apparent. I should point out that I edited AMC and Jeep newsletters for nearly 2 decades though I am originally a Studebaker racer/mechanic and editor. I'm also a long time outdoor/Jeep man and subscribe to several Jeep groups though I don't follow them very close for obvious reasons. After watching my own AMC/Jeep letters section and various articles for this long with my peculiar background, I would never use an AMC 390/401 in any extreme duty circumstances. The problems lie in the extremely thin 390/401 cylinder walls with a standard bore. The situation gets worse as the bore size increases--which is unavoidable due to ever higher miles and wear. This in turn produces a lot of wall flexing if higher compressions or super/turbocharger boosts are used, and of course gasket blowing (note the article on adding head bolts to AMC V-8s) and cylinder cracking that goes with these conditions. The next time you build a motor I would suggest that you find a 360 AMC block and install your 401 crank in it. That's an unusually good motor for its size. (About 385 cid). My favorite among the AMCs is using the 401 crank in the 304 block (about 325 cid) which gives bearing areas and wall thickness specs few motors have ever had. We Studebaker people have always been extremely reliability conscience, which is why we do so well in record breaking at Bonneville and are able to run such high boosts. Few outside our circle are as keen on the subject or reliability (no complaint from us). Sleeving is costly and not particularly successful. We have had trouble with them in race engines but that seems to do with how carefully they are installed. Also, I would consider a stock bore AMC 401 as being no more than barely adequate for a normally aspirated engine. Never for a super/turbo engine. The 304 or 360 block is the choice if you want to be safe. You've really spent the money and I wish I had gotten to you earlier about the thin cylinder walls as this is easy enough to fix when the engine is being rebuilt. Under "normal" use, you are probably safe. What's important is that now that you are aware of this situation you can be suspicious when there are small symptoms of head gasket leakage. etc. If caught in time, this is a minor repair problem. Most people live in denial, ignore the early signs and destroy their engines. Two things have killed many AMC 401s over the years -- too much compression for their thin cylinder walls and too much rpm. This is why you see our emphasis on super/turbocharging -- more power from smaller engines at low rpm (more torque). This avoids these major areas of destruction. I'm not trying to promote blowers, but simply am pointing out that many engines suffer from avoidable problems and when these problems are addressed, even super/turbocharging becomes practical. The blame can't be placed on blowers but rather on popular "bad ideas". Low boost supercharging will produce more horsepower from a 360/385 AMC than anyone could hope for in the most expensive built 401s -- and live to a ripe old age even in the harshest of circumstances. Unfortunately no such supercharger is currently available from the industry (less desirable for off-road turbos do our testing of course). That is what you see us developing and is the reason you are receiving our technical newsletter. By the end of this year we'll have at least several larger superchargers in operation to demonstrate. This is about increasing low rpm torque rather than high rpm horsepower. 830 lb.ft of torque from a record setting 300 cid Bonneville Studebaker proves that reliability and low rpm performance can go together. No current Studebaker drag or top speed car operates over 6000 rpm. That would get us laughed off most newsgroups now wouldn't it? A very old rule in racing I learned the hard way in my first serious motorcycle race 50 years ago -- "you have to finish to win". The same goes for any serious outback venture. Dick ************************** - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wes Stepp" To: Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 6:49 PM Subject: Wes's 401 Jeep Cherokee Great info Dick, thanks for the response! Unfortunately for me, I am finding this stuff out too late for this go round or I just may have done it differently. My newly re-rebuilt 401 motor is in the vehicle and just waiting on the radiator. Wish me luck! My 76 Cherokee has 230k miles on it and this is the 4th 401 motor rebuild in it's lifetime. 2 of those rebuilds were actually re-rebuilds and don't really count as they both failed with under 30k miles due to different causes. The #8 cylinder has been the problem area both times a rebuild has had to be redone. This last time the #8 piston ended up deformed due to over-heating. I'm pretty sure this was a result of running that cylinder real lean for a long time due to an external intake runner air leak. I suspect that the lean condition in #8 also caused a hot spot in the cooling system and most likely created a steam vapor pocket in that area of the water jacket and things went downhill from there. The stock temp sensor is in the front of the manifold and doesn't necessarily give a good indication of what is going on at the rear area of the motor. In this last case I had driven the vehicle straight thru from Phoenix to Los Angeles last October, and though it was running on the hot side, I didn't get an indication of a serious problem during the trip. No heavy pinging but the engine did get hot during the long uphill grades in the desert. Started it up the next morning and the #8 piston was slapping around in the cylinder until it warmed up. Tore down the motor, inspected the block and heads and found 3 scarred cylinder walls and 1 deformed piston. The damage to # 8 piston was obvious, the other 2 weren't but there was slight scars in the other 2 cylinder walls -( #s 5 and 6 I think) - to indicate a problem with those pistons also so we replaced them. Took .002 off all the cylinders walls to remove the scoring that was present in cylinders 5, 6 and 8. Replaced 3 pistons, rods and bearings. This was a 401 block that had not previously been rebuilt when we started the process of the rebuild. My original 401 block was cracked and so were the heads so we had gotten a used block and heads. This current block was bored on the 'tight' side of the tolerance for the rebuild so taking the extra .002 off to remove the scaring brought it into the middle of the .030 over bore tolerance as I understand it. I hope that makes since as I am not a professional mechanic and am describing what was done to the best of my understanding. My mechanic also mentioned that originally going to the low or 'tight' side of the rebuild .030 over bore tolerance may have contributed to some of the overheating heating problem that caused the failure. I've done a lot to increase the cooling capacity and consistency of my system this time around to prevent another premature failure. Switching to Evans coolant with a 370 degF boiling point (no water is used), custom hi volume waterpump and Griffin aluminum crossflow radiator are the main improvements. I have been consulting with the guys at Evans for this design and read quite a bit of material in this area. I'm going to initially use a Holley TBI Projection system and I have installed O2 sensors in both headers to monitor the mixture externally using direct reading calibrated digital meters with .001 volt resolution. Also have plugged/sealed all the intake runner vacuum ports on the manifold and will be using the common plenum as the source for all non ported vacuum. I like playing with this stuff and am planning on some future enhancements once I get it running satisfactorily with the current setup. I don't use my Jeep in real extreme conditions so I am optimistic that it will be reliable now with the improvements I've made. I like your suggestions about using the 304 and 360 blocks with the 401 crank. Can I get good results by sleeving a 401 block? I discussed this option with my mechanic when we were deciding how to fix the last problem. I wish now we would have gone with sleeving it to bring it back to the original 401 bore or smaller. Would of meant all new pistons of course. He said that sleeving would probably be a better solution than the additional .002 bore to fix it and sited the thin cylinder walls you mentioned as the main concern. Regards, Wes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:27:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re:FSJ Diesel in Pakistan A: That's 3.19 mpg more than Elmo got w/o an O/D, and less than what I expect to get with Blackie! LPG is far cheaper than gas and diesel now too! (at least in Canada and Oregon, which I'm half way between. The ultimate goal is liquid Natural Gas, compressed at home, but they are still working on perfecting the storage units. LPG tanks are already 10 times stronger than gasoline tanks, and I may use CNG tanks in the back refitted for LPG, which are 50 times stronger) All this, and I WON'T be needing an hourglass to do my 0-60 mph times! From: john On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, ehsan kiani wrote: Ok       Enough confusion here... It does around 10 km per litre... ok, that's 3.78542 liters per gallon (US) so, it's 37.85 km / gallon or 23.15 mpg. hmm... is this right? 23.15 mpg??? did I do that right? john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 23:49:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: I hate DSPO's A: You should have seen the rat's nest of jumpered wires under the hood of Elmo when I got it! (and I didn't have a diagram or other FSJ to compare it to so I could figure it out) The hood was left off for a year, and the U-joints were epoxied in place! 1/2 the bellhousing bolts were missing and the starter was held in with nuts and bolts too small for alignment! There were jumpers all over under the dash, which I removed (and I jumpered the ammeter) and everything started coming online on their own again! Only thing I had to repair was the gas sending unit (which the DSPO somehow managed to split in half!) All the breather hoses for the trans, xfer, rear diff and gas tank were capped off under the hood with bolts, and the radiator was bungeed in place! He also sold the rear window motor, and managed to get the M20 gasket 1/2 way out of the cover so it leaked! The ceiling was hanging, and I had my son tear it off, and vacuum the sponge off so I could spray paint it (round tuit that didn't get done before selling) and there was bondo over the rotted frame on the driver's side. The headlights had rubber bands holding them up because he was too lazy to back the screws off and put them back on, and he threw away the windshield chrome and stock AM/FM radio (speakers were bad) and destroyed the glovebox liner in the process. (No replacement. He just yanked it out!) The screws fell out of the driver's door till it dropped and kinked the front fender (all I did was add a couple and tighten them up!) The door locks were thrown away and it had coathangers attached to the door latches (2 sprays of PB'Laster and they all worked perfect!) He had a tow strap across the back of the driver's seat from the shoulder strap brace to the floor anchor in the middle to keep the seat from flopping back and a bungee to hld the visors from falling down (I tightened the screws and they worked fine) Oh yeah, he epoxied the roof rack in place w/o cleaning the roof first! From: RKH911-at-aol.com I'm curious if anyone can top that DSPO "fix"?? AMC has me beat with alot of the OEM fixin's and I found one of my rear windows supported in the up position with a chopstick in the sill but that certainly can't top the use of JBW. Rob Harrison 85 Grand Wagoneer One of the DSPO's of my '79 Chero didn't like the looseness of the window crank on the driver's door window, so guess how he/she fixed it??           Did they buy a new crank? NO. Did         They attached the window crank with JB Weld, that's what they did.           I really despise crap fixes like that. ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1420 **************************