From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Sep 24 09:42:18 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, September 24 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1463 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: '89 GW Vacuum Advance question & ISO radiator fsj: put the wallet away, first count... fsj: diesel Jeeps Re: FW: fsj: Flex Plate for 360/TF727 fsj: if it's 4 holes it can't be for a 401... Re: fsj: Diesels Re: fsj: what size lugnuts Re: fsj: '89 GW Vacuum Advance question & ISO radiator fsj: Re: death wobble Re: fsj: curious about bolts Re: FW: fsj: Flex Plate for 360/TF727 fsj: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_fsj=3A_FW=3A_Increase_Your_Gas_Mileage_by? = =?iso-8859-1?Q?_up_to_27=25=21_=A0_=A0_=A0_=A0_=A0_?= FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:37:28 -0500 From: Landon Tesar Subject: fsj: Re: '89 GW Vacuum Advance question & ISO radiator > Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 19:12:55 -0500 > From: "Michael & Carmen Keith" > Subject: fsj: '89 GW Vacuum Advance question & ISO radiator > > I'm a child of fuel injection; so please bear with the following amateurish > question: > > The line to the vacuum advance on my brother-in-law's '89 GW is plugged. The > P/O cut the line & plugged it with bolts on either end. What would be the > purpose of doing this? I would assume that it's no longer working. If this > is the case, can it be replaced independently of the rest of the distributor? > I haven't checked ignition timing; so I'm not sure where it's set. > > I ask because the car has a lumpy idle as if it has a performance cam, & it is > running (rich enough to fail emissions testing). Additionally, the car > stumbles & misses under light throttle from a stop. A heavier right foot > keeps this from happening. The car also gets poor (relative to GWs) gas > mileage. > Michael - as others will attest, I've been through a bit of this, just recently. One possible reason for plugging the line to the vacuum advance is that the advance diaphragm is shot. This is unlikely, though, seems that these units are pretty hardy. I suggest, since you own this beast, that you invest in a vacuum pump. Sears has them for a reasonable amount. Hook it to the vacuum advance canister, and apply vacuum. Two checks: Does it hold vacuum ? Yes ? Good. Next, take off the distributor cap, and apply vacuum. Does the baseplate move relative to the rotor shaft ? Yes ? Good. Your advance unit is probably fine. All other engine/driveability problems should wait until this one is resolved and your static timing is reset to a reasonable level, say about 8 degrees BTDC. Then see how the truck runs. Make sure the line to the vacuum advance is coming from ported vacuum, rather than manifold vacuum. I got a lesson in this only a week ago. On the Motorcraft 2150 carb, ported vacuum is the port on the very lower right front(closest to the distributor, someone was thinking) as you are facing the carb. OK. For rich running. This could be a blown power valve, but make sure you have vacuum, (manifold in this case) running to the front middle lower vacuum port. This vacuum opens and closes the power valve. (This is not the big hose that runs to the vapor cannister) If no vacuum is there, the power valve does not operate, and you are continuously running way rich, causing cold running, gas in your oil, sludge buildup, huge clouds of brown smoke out of the tailpipe at full acceleration, and causing you to question your investment. There should be plenty of vacuum there at idle. Otherwise, this power valve can be purchased seperately at NAPA (also called an 'economizer valve', go figure) and comes in even the lesser carb rebuild kits. Lumpy idle could be part of the timing problem, or a misadjusted idle mixture. Yes, you can adjust it. These fixes are also dependent on decent vacuum hoses everywhere. The quality isn't the best. I'll leave it at that, and let you get back to us with any results. - - Landon '89 GW ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 14:22:05 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: put the wallet away, first count... paul, put your wallet away until Jim counts the holes for the torque converter... if it's got three, keep your wallet closed, if it's got 4 it never would work on a 401... ;) of course Jim probably knows that... he was just being the wise guy he is... ;) paul, did you check with the dealer for a new one? curious mainly... I'm sure theirs is gold plate... ;) john >Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 00:05:43 -0700 (PDT) >From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) >Subject: Re: fsj: Flex Plate for 360/TF727 > >A: I have a nearly new one (previous owner installed it on a 258 and >wondered why it vibrated to pieces) for $25. The weight is big enough >that I would double check to be sure it's not for a 401! > >From: Paul and Megan Kershner >A couple of mechanics seem to think the noise I have coming from my >engine/transmission area is the Flex Plate. >Does anyone have one for sale or know where to get one? The guy that did >the engine swap for me called around and can't locate one... >Thanks, all. >Pk >'84 Grand "ka-ching" Wagoneer - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 23:28:49 EDT From: FourXDave-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: diesel Jeeps get a Benz 300 turbodiesel, take 2 turns out of the max throttle stop, lenghten the throttle lever on the valve cover 1/4 inch, take the protection solenoid out of the boost sensing line, put a vacuum tee in the wastegate line, with one leg open to atmosphere, and you have over 150 HP of good reliable diesel POWER, use the MBZ 4-speed automatic that came with the engine, use a dana 20 or 18 transfer case, with an Advance Adapters kit to convert the case to 'divorced' type, and either swap in FSJ dana 44's, or just swap to a CJ front dana 30 HSG (post 82) with cherokee mounts and accesories.. you could put a 3.15 low-range in the t-case while you were doing the divorce-type conversion... i have 3 benz 300 turbodiesels, the youngest one has 250,000 on it, and runs like a raped rabbit... mama's 300SD has 300,020 and still gets 28 on the highway/23 in town, with the previously mentioned boost increase and pump tune.... third is a project engine.. anyway, one mans opinion... DAB <>< God Bless America ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 21:28:24 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: FW: fsj: Flex Plate for 360/TF727 Jim, Does the flex plate you have got 3 holes or 4? Paul needs a 4 hole flex plate for his 360. The TH400's used 3 holes, that lasted until 1979. From 1980 and up the flex plates used with the 727s were 4 hole. This was even true of the XJs with 2.8L's, and the 909 or 999 or whatever those little slushboxes were behind the chevy 2.8s, 4 hole flexplate. I don't know enough about Matadors to know what trannies they came with... I'm still trying to figure out how elmo had a 401 with a 727 anyway??? ;) john t 11:13 PM 9/23/01 -0700, Paul and Megan Kershner wrote: >Subject: RE: fsj: Flex Plate for 360/TF727 > >A: The Matadors came with 401 and 727, and this one was definitely on a >727/999 trans (I took it out of Elmo) > From: pk.mlk-at-verizon.net (Paul and Megan Kershner) > >Subject: Re: fsj: Flex Plate for 360/TF727 > A: I have a nearly new one (previous owner installed it on a 258 and >wondered why it vibrated to pieces) for $25. The weight is big enough that >I would double check to be sure it's not for a 401! >From: Paul and Megan Kershner > A couple of mechanics seem to think the noise I have coming from my >engine/transmission area is the Flex Plate. Does anyone have one for sale >or know where to get one? The guy that did the engine swap for me called >around and can't locate one... Thanks, all. > Pk > '84 Grand "ka-ching" Wagoneer > >************************************* >JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche >http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ >http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 >************************************** - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 21:34:53 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: if it's 4 holes it can't be for a 401... >To: fsj-at-digest.net; pk.mlk-at-verizon.net >Subject: Re: fsj: Flex Plate for 360/TF727 > A: I have a nearly new one (previous owner installed it on a 258 and >wondered why it vibrated to pieces) for $25. The weight is big enough that >I would double check to be sure it's not for a 401! >From: Paul and Megan Kershner >I'm not familiar with the Japanese Diesels. I am familiar with the French (Renault, Peugot) and German (Mercedes, Volkswagen) Diesels. A: Isuzu is supposed to be a decent diesel as well (I see I-marks for less than $500 here often. Usually due to blown differentials or worn out unobtainium brakes) Doesn't the FWD Rabbit engine turn backwards? Or am I thinking about Fiat X-19s again? (I put a lot of Honda Accord motors with auto trans into the X-19s, and was going to sell a fleet of them just before my first divorce) >I'd say get a Jeep that is registered as a Diesel, or could be, 85-87, and use the 300D motor, but even a 240D motor would produce enough power, almost as much as the 2.1L TD that Jeep used. I'd avoid the French Diesels, parts are hard to find and EXPENSIVE. The VW Diesels are more designed for Front Wheel Drive, they're good engines too, but the Mercedes 2.4 and 3.0L inline 4 and inline 5 cylinder Diesels would work pretty well... haven't measured them to see if they'd fit in a pre-87 Cherokee though... but there are easy ways of making it fit... A: Why not use an '87 or newer (with 4.0L like the one I picked up with an okay body but melted wiring. I'll let it go for a reasonable price! ), and get the title from a diesel '84 to '86, and have it retitled older, so you can legally use the diesel? (or address it in a non-emission test area) >Parts are plentiful and AFFORDABLE for the Benz and it's a solid runner. It ain't going to be easy adapting the transmission, but that's ok, at least you'll have a solid motor capable of 450,000 miles or more without major work. Making an adapter for it shouldn't be terribly expensive or hard. Typical used price on the motor is around $1,500. You could probably find a used 75 - 85 Mercedes 240D, 300D or even a 300SD. This is giving me some ideas... find a dead Cherokee with a 2.8L chevy motor, plenty around... ;) and swap in a Mercedes engine. Yeah, that's the ticket... You may have just solved my "dieseljohn" problem... I mean it's bothered me to call myself dieseljohn when I don't have a Diesel... :) john A: Well, you could put diesel in your WJ, but I think it would protest! 8^P ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:19:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: what size lugnuts A: IIRC, 7/16ths or 1/2 inch. I'm upgrading Black Jack's to 14mm (I already have the wheel nuts and matched studs with originals to do this. I just have to pick the new studs up from 6 Roblees which are across the highway from me) From: john what size are the lugnuts we need for our 6 lug FSJ's? john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:26:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: '89 GW Vacuum Advance question & ISO radiator A: The vac advance missing can be part of the HC too high if timing was set ahead to account for it (causing miss). Jets sized wrong can affect it too. It was probably removed due to ping. Recurving the dist will probably help. As for a rad, I got my new one from 1-800-radiator. From: "Michael & Carmen Keith" I'm a child of fuel injection; so please bear with the following amateurish question: The line to the vacuum advance on my brother-in-law's '89 GW is plugged. The P/O cut the line & plugged it with bolts on either end. What would be the purpose of doing this? I would assume that it's no longer working. If this is the case, can it be replaced independently of the rest of the distributor? I haven't checked ignition timing; so I'm not sure where it's set. I ask because the car has a lumpy idle as if it has a performance cam, & it is running (rich enough to fail emissions testing). Additionally, the car stumbles & misses under light throttle from a stop. A heavier right foot keeps this from happening. The car also gets poor (relative to GWs) gas mileage. I'm not sure if the vacuum advance is related to all of this, but I figure it's a good place to start. Any suggestions would be appreciated. By the way, the radiator is also leaking from the bottom tank. Anyone have a good one for sale? Michael Keith Houston, TX ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:24:49 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: death wobble At 10:08 PM 9/23/01 -0700, >John, >Thanks for your comments. Turns out the tracbar bolts indeed had backed >off. Is there anything beyond locktight that ya can do to keep 'em tight? >I hear this happens a lot. >Thanks, >Michael Minasian Depends on which bolts we're talking about. If it's the one on the passenger side, the only thing you can use is lock tight over there. On the main bolt going up into the housing on the driver's side, that has a hole in the bolt and a castle nut for a cotter pin. If the after market track bar doesn't have a hole for the cotter pin then what I'd do is use lock tight and a really good lock washer and torque that guppy down. There's also some aircraft type fasteners out there that are used on headers, not sure if that would work up there or not. I know on my '87 it's a pain to reach up there because of the front skid plate... and right now my track bar is just tightened down, but not with the cotter pin in place... I need to tighten it up with daylight and line up the cotter pin... Since I don't drive it very much it's not a big deal. I think one of my son's friends is about to buy it, so I'll hand him the cotter pin and point to where it goes, then graphically describe the wobble o' death... I figure he'll be asking to borrow my ratchet and sockets and I won't need to get greasy. :) Besides, even if that bolt came loose and the track bar fell down, it's unlikely any thing fatal would happen... the rig would still be driveable... for a very short distance of course... :) Remember, the track bar, aka, panhard bar, is designed to keep the axle parallel to the springs. If that bar fails then oscillations can occur, aka, the wobble o death... but once you do something to dampen that frequency, it stops... The added the panhard bars to the Grand Wagoneers, all it did for them was create a "new" clunking sound. Supposedly it was supposed to help the ride and handling. The thing that makes the biggest difference in the SJs is the front sway bar. Oh man, what an improvement. :) So, I'd double check that bolt going up into that bracket and look for that cotter pin opening... did it come with a new nut? was it a castle nut? Or did they expect you to use your old nut from the stock bar? You know, that bolt going up into the bracket is a tapered seat. Are you saying it worked loose enough to wobble in the bracket??? You might want to check the bracket to make sure the hole isn't elongated. Also check for cracks. Are you sure it was a loose nut, or is the bushing on the end of the track bar bad? I just had a brand new factory track bar fail... it failed within 15 miles too! I replaced it with another new one and even my front end alignment problem went away... On my '85, when I first learned experientially about the wobble o' death, before it was widely known... I also learned that my bracket had worked loose on the frame! From '86 up it was reinforced. I ended up using large fender washers and bolts through the "frame" to fix it. I probably did some buzz box work as well. Kind of the thing you get used to after owning a '67 Wagoneer... had the steering box come loose, well, actually, the frame came loose... NOW THAT WAS A WEIRD FEELING, take about a strange steering response... :) I broke it trying to get out of a mudhole... which is why you never really want to force your steering wheel in tight spots... something has to give, and often times TERRA FIRMA wins... :) john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:33:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: curious about bolts A: Every little hammer? Eat less ham? Early Liberty Hauler? Probably the bolt manufacturer. Check out the AMC-list at http://www.amxfiles.com for answers to that! From: JPhil78888-at-aol.com I recently pulled the oil pan off of my '73 J-4000. While cleaning off the bolts I noticed "ELH" stamped on the head. What is this supposed to mean? Later, Jamie ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:46:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: FW: fsj: Flex Plate for 360/TF727 A: 4 holes of course! 727 and 999 use the same flexplate (this one came off Elmo's original motor) The 998 and 904 use a smaller bolt pattern 4 hole set up. Elmo didn't have a 401, but the original owner put in a new flexplate after destroying 6 AMC starters with the old one. The ignition box in Elmo was messed up and advancing the timing so the motor kicked back while cranking (high altitude version had timing adjustments built into the BBD computer)). When I put the 4.5L from my Eagle into it, which never had a problem before, it did the same thing. Quick box swap from the Eagle, and problem solved! AMC cars from '72 up only had Dodge type trannies. In '80 they decided to go with the same in Jeeps. The reason I wonder which motor the flexplate I have is balanced for is because Pioneer had them erroneously listed as fitting (and being balanced for) 4.2L, 360 AND 401 in their catalog! I wonder if anyone sued over this? From: john-at-wagoneers.com (john) Jim, Does the flex plate you have got 3 holes or 4? Paul needs a 4 hole flex plate for his 360. The TH400's used 3 holes, that lasted until 1979. From 1980 and up the flex plates used with the 727s were 4 hole. This was even true of the XJs with 2.8L's, and the 909 or 999 or whatever those little slushboxes were behind the chevy 2.8s, 4 hole flexplate. I don't know enough about Matadors to know what trannies they came with... I'm still trying to figure out how elmo had a 401 with a 727 anyway??? ;) john t 11:13 PM 9/23/01 -0700, Paul and Megan Kershner wrote: Subject: RE: fsj: Flex Plate for 360/TF727 A: The Matadors came with 401 and 727, and this one was definitely on a 727/999 trans (I took it out of Elmo) From: pk.mlk-at-verizon.net (Paul and Megan Kershner) Subject: Re: fsj: Flex Plate for 360/TF727 A: I have a nearly new one (previous owner installed it on a 258 and wondered why it vibrated to pieces) for $25. The weight is big enough that I would double check to be sure it's not for a 401! From: Paul and Megan Kershner A couple of mechanics seem to think the noise I have coming from my engine/transmission area is the Flex Plate. Does anyone have one for sale or know where to get one? The guy that did the engine swap for me called around and can't locate one... Thanks, all. ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 12:45:40 -0400 From: George Milam Subject: fsj: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_fsj=3A_FW=3A_Increase_Your_Gas_Mileage_by? = =?iso-8859-1?Q?_up_to_27=25=21_=A0_=A0_=A0_=A0_=A0_?= Thanks! It did sound like a crock. George Milam '89 Grand Wagoneer "Moose" Vermont - -----Original Message----- From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net [mailto:Carnuck2-at-webtv.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 1:25 PM To: fsj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: fsj: FW: Increase Your Gas Mileage by up to 27%! A: They should have named it crockium, because that's what it is! Neodium, AKA crystals won't affect your gas mileage (unless you really, really believe, right Tink?), but they will affect your wallet! Way back when, I tried the cow magnets taped to the fuel line trick and netted.... zero extra MPG! From: David Charles Gedraitis For one thing, I suspect the auto manufacturer's would jump on this, as they need to keep their average fleet mileage low, and this would be a cheap way to do that-it would save them money and give them the freedom to offer larger engines. They mention their patented "Neodymium super conductors it generates the specific resonance frequency that when installed over the fuel line, will fracture the hydrocarbon chains in the passing fuel providing accelerated combustion". Aparently this exact frequency that is soooo perfect works on every single automobile engine. I highly doubt this. Anyone ever buy a one-size fits all shirt? Same thing. According to the FAQ section on their website, car manufacturer's aren't interested in gas mileage-interesting. They also don't have any idea what a hydrocarbon is in their FAQ section, yet it "fractures the hydrocarbon chains" for better combustion! wow! magic! I liked this-"Higher octane performance can be achieved on lower octane fuel." An octane number by definition is a fuel's resistance to knock. Knock is typically pressure-induced self-ignition. So a higher octane does not provide more performance, it just ensures that those who have higher compression engines will not have the issue of pressure- induced self-ignition. So if you run fine on 87, this is also useless (not that I could find a non-useless application-maybe a paperweight). Octance does NOT result in performance. "Does high temperature effect performance?" They don't answer that question. "How much improvement can I expect?" They skirt that one nicely too-from the sounds of it, if you drive an 18 wheeler up the mountains in the snow in the winter, then take it down the mountain on dry pavement in neutral in the summer, you will see improvement. amazing. I suspect I could go on, but I'll end with the thought that I would be hesitant to buy any product from a manufacturer who could not accurately represent how it works, or even understands the basics of combustion and octane ratings. ~dave ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1463 **************************