From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Nov 29 10:33:42 2001 Return-Path: Received: from krusty-motorsports.com (IDENT:exim-at-krusty-motorsports.com [192.94.170.8]) by virtual-cafe (8.9.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA24997 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:08:36 -0800 Received: from majordomo by krusty-motorsports.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 169KPN-0001Tu-00 for fsj-digest-outgoing-at-digest.net; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 01:10:53 -0500 From: owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net (fsj-digest) To: fsj-digest-at-digest.net Subject: fsj-digest V1 #1508 Reply-To: fsj-at-digest.net Sender: owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk Message-Id: Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 01:10:53 -0500 X-Keywords: X-UID: 1558 fsj-digest Thursday, November 29 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1508 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: quadratrac fluid Re: fsj: Re: RE: wagoneer seals Re: fsj: Re:headliner.... Re: fsj: quadratrac fluid fsj: Re: quadratrac with vari-lock axles... fsj: more headliner ideas Re: fsj: quadratrac fluid Re: fsj: more headliner ideas Re: fsj: Re: RE: wagoneer seals Re: fsj: Re:headliner.... fsj: Re: more headliner ideas Re: fsj: more headliner ideas RE: fsj: more headliner ideas Re: fsj: more headliner ideas fsj: today's lesson... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:14:41 -0600 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: Re: fsj: quadratrac fluid Anywhere from 8.99 to 12.99 a quart From the dealer... it is called "Quadra Trac Fluid" Except no substitute! R.J. john wrote: > I may have found a source for quadratrac fluid... > > what's the going price/size? > > john > (remember I'm in digest mode, pls cc me) > thanx > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:20:56 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: RE: wagoneer seals A: Oww! The GM dealer sells those for $25!! From: "Vince Orr" Also got a replacement part to fix my broken emergency flasher - It's a white plastic ring with a wire harness on it and is located in the steering column - part #56002011 and cost $87. - - --Vince '81 Wag ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:31:50 -0600 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: Re: fsj: Re:headliner.... You know what?.. That's what I did with my old 79 Wagoneer.. worked great.. because The Adhesive spray did not work well, and it kept falling back down on my head, so one day in a fit of frustration, I stapled the heck out of it! not a problem until later the wind on the edges by the windows, came loose where I guess it tore it out from lack of holding power.. i guess you might want to tack it more around the top of the windows... R.J. 80 J-10 Honcho Vince Orr wrote: >I stapled mine, but you got to be careful not to puncture the roof! Not >pretty but it works! >--Vince >'81 SJ >'99 TJ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "R.J. Baynum" >To: "john" >Cc: ; >Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 10:06 AM >Subject: Re: fsj: Re:headliner.... > > >>oops.. got it backwards.. >> >> >>thanks john.. >> >>By the way,, what brand was that spray?.. I noticed the corner and >>some of the side is starting to come down.. on the driver side.. >> >>R.J. >> >>john wrote: >> >>>At 02:37 PM 11/24/01 -0500, fsj-digest wrote: >>> >>>>Mine has insulation ( grey multi-colored thread recycled padding >>>> >that's > >>>>1/4 thick right now) that is liquid nailed to the roof, providing >>>> >warmth > >>>>and noise reduction. I think it's used as padding under rugs.. But I >>>>like it.. >>>>R.J. >>>>J-10 Honcho >>>>Huntsville AL. >>>> >>> >>> >>>RJ, that's not liquid nails... it's a spray adhesive. It's underhood >>>reflective insulation that was used. The reflective side is glued >>>to the ceiling. The liquid nail stuff was used on my '80 Cherokee. >>>The guy I got the Honcho from used the correct spray adhesive >>>to adhere that insulation to the roof and under the hood. :) >>> >>>I bought some from JC Whitney and put it under SuperDawg's hood >>>as well, same stuff, silver on one side, gray on the other. >>>It's not carpet padding... It's underhood reflective insulation, >>>something >>>like $22 for enough to do an entire hood and then some.... >>> >>>ur 2 funny... >>> >>>john >>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >------------- > >>> http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ >>> Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >>> jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:50:02 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: quadratrac fluid At 10:14 AM 11/28/01 -0600, R.J. Baynum wrote: >Anywhere from 8.99 to 12.99 a quart > From the dealer... it is called "Quadra Trac Fluid" >Except no substitute! >R.J. Accepting no substitute is correct, those friction cones don't like the wrong juice. :) Depending on my shipping costs I should be able to beat the lower price... Will have to verify that it's the quart size and figure shipping costs to here, of course whoever buys it will pay shipping costs from here... thanx, john >john wrote: > >>I may have found a source for quadratrac fluid... >> >>what's the going price/size? >> >>john >>(remember I'm in digest mode, pls cc me) >>thanx >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ >> Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >> jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:47:42 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: quadratrac with vari-lock axles... At 10:37 PM 11/27/01 -0500, fsj-digest wrote: >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 06:37:08 -0600 >From: "Vince Orr" >Subject: fsj: Re: quadradrive test > >Nice video John! Pretty impressive considering the rubber. Imagine what it >could do with some beefy tires! If she'd have gunned it at the right >moment, you'ld probably be picking mud from the lens! >- --Vince >'81 SJ >'99 TJ Actually she would have taken off up the hill like a scalded cat... I have nailed it going up the hill, it hooks up and departs quickly. It would have gone a little further sideways first though... http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/wetgrasshillclimb.mov four wheeler did a test of the three winners from the independent study Chrysler had done for the WJ launch, the Hummer, the Mercedes M-series and the WJ... they did a ONE wheel traction test UP A HILL... only the WJ made it. :) I'll have to find the article before I purge my collection of Four Wheeler mags and cite the issue... john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:49:48 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: more headliner ideas on superdawg the material was nasty so I pulled it off, cleaned up the cardboard and then sprayed it with that fake rock stuff... came out ok... I'm hoping curtis will come up with a nicer solution though... ;) john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 14:03:36 -0600 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: Re: fsj: quadratrac fluid If you do.. let us know okay? I know some people who would want to know.. R.J. john wrote: > At 10:14 AM 11/28/01 -0600, R.J. Baynum wrote: > >> Anywhere from 8.99 to 12.99 a quart >> From the dealer... it is called "Quadra Trac Fluid" >> Except no substitute! >> R.J. > > > Accepting no substitute is correct, those friction cones don't > like the wrong juice. :) > > Depending on my shipping costs I should be able to beat the lower > price... > > Will have to verify that it's the quart size and figure shipping costs to > here, of course whoever buys it will pay shipping costs from here... > > thanx, > john > > > > > > >> john wrote: >> >>> I may have found a source for quadratrac fluid... >>> >>> what's the going price/size? >>> >>> john >>> (remember I'm in digest mode, pls cc me) >>> thanx >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ >>> Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >>> jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 00:03:20 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: Re: fsj: more headliner ideas The best solution I found was to replace the cardboard with 1/8" masonite and use the 3M super trim adhesive to adhere some new foam/fabric headliner material to it. It worked great and looked great too. Greg Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 05:53:06 -0600 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: RE: wagoneer seals OUCH! OUCH! My butt hurts! - --Vince - ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Blair" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 10:20 PM Subject: Re: fsj: Re: RE: wagoneer seals > A: Oww! The GM dealer sells those for $25!! > > From: "Vince Orr" > Also got a replacement part to fix my broken emergency flasher - It's a > white plastic ring with a wire harness on it and is located in the > steering column - part #56002011 and cost $87. > - --Vince > '81 Wag > > ************************************* > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche > http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 > ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 05:59:03 -0600 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: Re: fsj: Re:headliner.... I seem to recall seeing some kind of screw for upholstery that used a kind of a button for a head after you screw it in. Was thinking about using that. Question is, can I get them small enough so as not to go too deep..... Will take some searching and probably won't be too cheap but might look pretty cool. Seems I can't find anything at a reasonable price anymore!!! - --Vince '81 Wag - ----- Original Message ----- From: "JC Jones" To: "'Vince Orr'" Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 11:39 PM Subject: RE: fsj: Re:headliner.... > I would think you could hold any material to the cardboard headboard > backing with the sheet metal screws, however screws in leather might > look a little odd. > > JC Jones http://www.wagoneer.net > 1979 Jeep J-10 "Max" 1984 Grand Wagoneer "Eeyore" > 1978 MB 300D "Fritz" 1986 Jeep XJ Cherokee "Junior" > * * * * * =================== "They that can give up > * * * * =================== essential liberty to > * * * * * =================== obtain a little > ============================= temporary safety > ============================= deserve neither > ============================= liberty nor safety." > ============================= -Benjamin Franklin > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On > -> Behalf Of Vince Orr > -> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 7:47 PM > -> To: FSJ List > -> Subject: Re: fsj: Re:headliner.... > -> > -> > -> Hey JC: > -> Do you think something like that hold up vinyl or leather? > -> I need a new headliner but have been thinking about doing > -> something radical and different. --Vince '81 Wagoneer > -> > -> > -> ----- Original Message ----- > -> From: "JC Jones" > -> To: > -> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:24 PM > -> Subject: RE: fsj: Re:headliner.... > -> > -> > -> > You can also use 1/4" long #8 sheet metal screws and if > -> you put them > -> > all over in a symetrical pattern it gives it kind of a > -> neat look. I > -> > did that in my 76 Wagoneer, it worked great and did not > -> look too bad > -> > either. > -> > > -> > JC Jones http://www.wagoneer.net > -> > 1979 Jeep J-10 "Max" 1984 Grand Wagoneer "Eeyore" > -> > 1978 MB 300D "Fritz" 1986 Jeep XJ Cherokee "Junior" > -> > * * * * * =================== "They that can give up > -> > * * * * =================== essential liberty to > -> > * * * * * =================== obtain a little > -> > ============================= temporary safety > -> > ============================= deserve neither > -> > ============================= liberty nor safety." > -> > ============================= -Benjamin Franklin > -> > > -> > -> -----Original Message----- > -> > -> From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net > -> [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf > -> > -> Of Vince Orr > -> > -> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 5:40 AM > -> > -> To: FSJ List > -> > -> Subject: Re: fsj: Re:headliner.... > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> I stapled mine, but you got to be careful not to > -> puncture the roof! > -> > -> Not pretty but it works! --Vince '81 SJ '99 TJ > -> > -> > -> > -> ----- Original Message ----- > -> > -> From: "R.J. Baynum" > -> > -> To: "john" > -> > -> Cc: ; > -> > -> Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 10:06 AM > -> > -> Subject: Re: fsj: Re:headliner.... > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > oops.. got it backwards.. > -> > -> > > -> > -> > > -> > -> > thanks john.. > -> > -> > > -> > -> > By the way,, what brand was that spray?.. I noticed the > -> > -> corner and > -> > -> > some of the side is starting to come down.. on the > -> driver side.. > -> > -> > > -> > -> > R.J. > -> > -> > > -> > -> > john wrote: > -> > -> > > -> > -> > > At 02:37 PM 11/24/01 -0500, fsj-digest wrote: > -> > -> > > > -> > -> > >> Mine has insulation ( grey multi-colored thread > -> > -> recycled padding > -> > -> that's > -> > -> > >> 1/4 thick right now) that is liquid nailed to the roof, > -> > -> providing > -> > -> warmth > -> > -> > >> and noise reduction. I think it's used as padding under > -> > -> rugs.. But > -> > -> > >> I like it.. R.J. > -> > -> > >> J-10 Honcho > -> > -> > >> Huntsville AL. > -> > -> > > > -> > -> > > > -> > -> > > > -> > -> > > RJ, that's not liquid nails... it's a spray adhesive. > -> > -> It's underhood > -> > -> > > reflective insulation that was used. The reflective > -> > -> side is glued > -> > -> > > to the ceiling. The liquid nail stuff was used on my > -> > -> '80 Cherokee. > -> > -> > > The guy I got the Honcho from used the correct > -> spray adhesive > -> > -> > > to adhere that insulation to the roof and under the > -> hood. :) > -> > -> > > > -> > -> > > I bought some from JC Whitney and put it under > -> SuperDawg's hood > -> > -> > > as well, same stuff, silver on one side, gray on the other. > -> > -> > > It's not carpet padding... It's underhood reflective > -> > -> > > insulation, something like $22 for enough to do an > -> entire hood > -> > -> > > and then some.... > -> > -> > > > -> > -> > > ur 2 funny... > -> > -> > > > -> > -> > > john > -> > -> > > > -> > -> > > -> > -> > > -> > -> ------------------------------------------------------------- > -> > -> ------------- > -> > -> ------------- > -> > -> > > > -> > -> > > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > -> > -> > > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > -> > -> > > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > -> > -> > > -> > -> > > -> > -> ------------------------------------------------------------- > -> > -> ------------- > -> > -> ------------------ > -> > -> > -> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 06:00:48 -0600 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: fsj: Re: more headliner ideas That or herculiner sounds pretty cool too, and a lot easier than what I'm thinking about with screw grommets and such....... - --Vince '81 SJ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 11:49 PM Subject: fsj: more headliner ideas > on superdawg the material was nasty so I pulled it off, cleaned > up the cardboard and then sprayed it with that fake rock stuff... > came out ok... I'm hoping curtis will come up with a nicer solution > though... ;) > > john > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------- > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 06:08:38 -0600 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: Re: fsj: more headliner ideas Thanks Greg, My headliner is pretty much shot and missing the back half. But I think I can fashion a back half using some measurements from the rear of the front half. Do you score the masonite at the edges to fit the roof curve or just bend it somehow? - --Vince - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Loxtercamp" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 2:03 AM Subject: Re: fsj: more headliner ideas > The best solution I found was to replace the cardboard with 1/8" masonite and > use the 3M super trim adhesive to adhere some new foam/fabric headliner > material to it. It worked great and looked great too. > > Greg > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:04:14 -0700 From: "JC Jones" Subject: RE: fsj: more headliner ideas I made a new headliner for my J-10 from 1/8" ABS plastic. It's black with a nice "hair-cell" texture, it's heat moulded to fit and held in place with #6 sheet metal screws around the edges. It's strong enough that I have a roof console and other interior lights (red aux. lights to prevent night blindness) mounted to just the ABS headliner. It only took me about 4 hours one afternoon to make and install it. JC Jones http://www.wagoneer.net 1979 Jeep J-10 "Max" 1984 Grand Wagoneer "Eeyore" 1978 MB 300D "Fritz" 1986 Jeep XJ Cherokee "Junior" * * * * * =================== "They that can give up * * * * =================== essential liberty to * * * * * =================== obtain a little ============================= temporary safety ============================= deserve neither ============================= liberty nor safety." ============================= -Benjamin Franklin - -> -----Original Message----- - -> From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On - -> Behalf Of Greg Loxtercamp - -> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 1:03 AM - -> To: fsj-digest-at-digest.net - -> Subject: Re: fsj: more headliner ideas - -> - -> - -> The best solution I found was to replace the cardboard with - -> 1/8" masonite and use the 3M super trim adhesive to adhere - -> some new foam/fabric headliner material to it. It worked - -> great and looked great too. - -> - -> Greg - -> Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just - -> $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 - -> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:20:25 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: Re: fsj: more headliner ideas That's exactly what I did. I set the circular saw for ~1/16" depth and ran it over the hardboard, cutting it halfway through, then bent it. It takes two sheets of 4x8...one for the front and one for the rear. When you apply the adhesive, apply it to both the hardboard and the foam...in a 90 degree offset pattern (ie. the hardboard, front to back and the foam, side to side). Apply pressure (lay a couple sheets of plywood on it) and let dry for a night. The '3M super trim adhesive' stuff works great if you apply it correctly...don't skimp!!! My headliner was still holding strong the day I got rid of the ghost...3 years after the headliner replacement. The upholstery guy said the vinyl & foam was just too heavy for a headliner application. He sold me the fabric & foam and it worked great. Good luck... Greg - --- Vince Orr wrote: > Thanks Greg, > My headliner is pretty much shot and missing the back half. But I think I > can fashion a back half using some measurements from the rear of the front > half. Do you score the masonite at the edges to fit the roof curve or just > bend it somehow? > --Vince > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Greg Loxtercamp" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 2:03 AM > Subject: Re: fsj: more headliner ideas > > > > The best solution I found was to replace the cardboard with 1/8" masonite > and > > use the 3M super trim adhesive to adhere some new foam/fabric headliner > > material to it. It worked great and looked great too. > > > > Greg > > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. > > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:06:39 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: today's lesson... today I learned what ABS feels like when it activates... actually it's a rather rude feeling... ;) it snowed today. one of those surprise events in the Puget Sound area where the weather forecast calls for rain and 40's and a front moves a bit one way or the other and the "hills" get snow. A mile down the hill from the house it was rain. Back up Seattle Hill road it was a winter wonderland... and I was wondering why all the cars weren't moving. :) Oh yeah, they weren't Jeeps. I also learned something else... but I'm not sure if I learned that Quadradrive is not a locker or if I need better tires to go up a snowy, steep hillside with wet grass and mud under the snow... I couldn't get any volunteers to stand outside to see if all four tires were spinning... there was mud and grass flying everywhere, couldn't tell from which corners. :) The picture (link below) shows my tracks... I've been in that "death" slide before... (My neighbor has had to extract me from his fence before... ;) What worried me is sliding into the trailer... not that I was worried about my trailer, but the wj doesn't have real bumpers... and it's my wife's jeep!!! http://wagoneers.com/WJ/images/28nov01-hillslide.jpg I tried the hill again tonight with no snow... we got almost all the way to the top... I even put it in low range... we just sat there at about 10 mph... I turned the wheel left and right... no luck... we just sat there... well, except for the times when it started to slide sideways toward the fence... :) I looked at the tire marks later, it didn't have divots in the opposite corners, there were just two wide ruts that were smooth... basically I must have had all four wheels spinning... I even tried a light touch on the brake... like you would with a true-trac or a limited slip... didn't help. We just sat there at 10mph... :) So, my conclusion after much thought is that Quadradrive works... but I need to get a little bit better tire if I'm going to go up that hillside with a wet snow laying on wet grass... Since "her" Jeep is on the road 99.99999999% of the time I don't want a tire that is loud... but I'm not sure the Yokohama Geolander is designed to do what I tried to make it do... Any suggestions for a nice riding, quiet, long lasting tire that handles well on the street but will do "ok" off-road? I've conquered this hill before with Old Blue - 81 Wagoneer with an NP219 Quadratrac, open axles and Michelin LTX's, the little wagoneer - 88 xj with BFG AT's, and SuperDawg - 81 J10 with Michelin AT's.... so I'm leaning toward a BFG or Michelin solution... ;) when I wear out these tires, I mean, I mean, when these tires wear out... ;) john later, john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1508 **************************