From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Dec 3 09:39:39 2001 Return-Path: Received: from krusty-motorsports.com (IDENT:exim-at-krusty-motorsports.com [192.94.170.8]) by virtual-cafe (8.9.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA28821 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 07:28:11 -0800 Received: from majordomo by krusty-motorsports.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16Av3m-0000Ly-00 for fsj-digest-outgoing-at-digest.net; Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:31:10 -0500 From: owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net (fsj-digest) To: fsj-digest-at-digest.net Subject: fsj-digest V1 #1512 Reply-To: fsj-at-digest.net Sender: owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk Message-Id: Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:31:10 -0500 fsj-digest Monday, December 3 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1512 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Jeep Weather.... Re: fsj: Re: carb backfire problem fsj: Michelin Cross Terrain Tires vs. LTX ATs Re: fsj: Re: carb backfire problem fsj: Re: Michelin Cross Terrain Tires vs. LTX ATs fsj: Re: Michelin Cross Terrain Tires vs. LTX ATs fsj: 2002 FSJ Calendar fsj: 2002 Calendars: correction fsj: Wipers...not wiping RE: [RE: fsj: mileage and the 2wd myth ] FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:52:53 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Jeep Weather.... A: The rain is coming from the south so far, but the if the wind changes (as the circular moving system passes over us) to coming from the north before the system dies down, another dump of the white stuff is highly possible, even though it won't stick since the ground isn't frozen. >From Randy's ring and pinion website: http://www.ringpinion.com/c-tire_height.html (I used to use the 4lo.com calculators, but since they changed the site to wider font, my Webtv and older browsers can't access them anymore) According to my figuring, John's tires are roughly about 30/10/16. Using the formula below (if I didn't miscalculate, which is possible since I am VERY tired!) 29.5" - 16" = 13.5" which divided by 2 (above and below the rim) = 6.75" bead to tread height. Using 6.75 = 70%, then 9.82 = 100% or about 10". I also sent John a link to Michelin tires that look decent for on/off road in his size. http://www.4wheelparts.com:80/tires_info.asp?sku=MIC97768&brand=MICHELIN (not pushing the site owners or product. I just noticed they were new and I hadn't heard others talk about them. They will likely be the replacements for the Firestoned that are presently on my wife's '99 Rollover-Rover Ranger!) On second thought, maybe I can get a break on the 4.88 M20 gears I want from them if enough people click on it! The Tire Height Calculator Enter tire width, aspect and wheel and click solve to calculate tire height. (width 245) (aspect 70) (wheel 16") = (Tire Height 29.5") Street tires are rated using three numbers for example 245/70R16. In our example 245 is the Width in mm if the tire was measured from the bottom of bead to bottom of bead and across the tread. In our example 70 is the Aspect, which means that the sidewall is 70% as tall as the tread is wide. In our example 16 is the the Wheel, the size of the wheel in inches, also called rim size. Placing the example numbers in the corresponding fields you will get a Tire Height of 29.5. Place your corresponding numbers into the fields on the page to calculate your tire height. From: john It's really windy out there and has been raining like crazy... but the real news was posted on the local station: The snow level looks like it could be low enough that we should consider the possibility of some hilltop snow in the lowlands Monday and Tuesday. We'll watch that and keep you updated through the weekend. :) thankfully the wj has quadradrive... otherwise these street tires would be a big problem... the odd size 245/70R16s I'm sure finding tires would be an expensive experience... - - ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 22:05:34 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: carb backfire problem A: My first thought (besides the vacuum leak commonality) would be the ignition connector problem on the Bid ignition the '77 has. The distributor plug in was supposed to be removed, and the wires soldered together. (per TSB I read on the AMC list) The power valve is likely gone, causing a flooded condition, which temporarily snuffs the spark, then as it clears, the spark is slowed down so much that it's still burning in the cylinder when the intake valve opens, which makes a backfire, just like retarded engine timing would. One of the worst case scenarios is a wiped out cam lobe (exhaust especially) or cam walking forward under RPM. It will change the engine timing all over the place, till it wipes out the dist drive gear and shuts off. (there will be marks inside the timing chain cover from it touching because V8 AMCs didn't come with cam buttons like the later 4.0L six cyls did) A very sloppy timing chain will cause trouble like this too. From: john At 09:48 PM 12/2/01 -0600, Garry Ellison wrote: chick.bibitte-at-sk.sympatico.ca Hi John Great site, thanks. I just bought a 77 jeep cherokee chief with a 360. Compression is great but it backfires throught the carb. I replaced the spark plug, wires, distributor cap and rotor. Checked the float in carb. Are my valves sticking or what. while checking out the problem i pulled the new plugs out to check compression and they are all black. Any info you can give would be greatley appreciated.buy the way I checked timing but don't know what the setting should be thanks Garry Ellison Gary, I'm going to make a wild guess having had the same trouble with my '77 Wagoneer and say that you might have two plug wires switched... baffled me... I figured the worse too... :) The cylinders are numbered from front to rear: 1-3-5-7 on the left bank and 2-4-6-8 on the right bank with the firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. (this applies to the 304, 360 and 401 engines). You didn't mention whether it has a 2v or 4v carb. The letter code N is the 2v, P is the 4v. For an Automatic the timing is supposed to be 8 deg BTC (range 6 to 10 deg btc is ok) 700 rpm (600-800 ok) Standard plug RN12Y 0.033 - 0.037 gap alternate plug N12Y If the timing is too far advanced, or even too far retarded, or if a couple of the wires are switched it'll back fire through the carb... ALSO, (unlikely scenarios follow) if the distributor is off one tooth, or the timing chain slipped, or the camshaft key has slipped a bit... those things could do it too. HOWEVER, unless something traumatic has happened, or you just got this thing and it's never run before, I wouldn't go down that route until you check the firing order and timing. If it was running before you tuned it, it's real easy to get the wires switched. I'm very careful to switch only ONE wire at a time... of course this only works if it was running before you got it and the previous owner didn't screw it up. :) That's what happened to me. I assumed the plug wires were right, so when I replaced them one by one I didn't check the order... couldn't figure out why it had no power and was backfiring... I assumed the worst... finally got around to checking the wires and that fixed it. :) Usually this stuff is simple. ALWAYS check the simple stuff before panicking. Don't let some mechanic sell you a rebuild because you had a bad vacuum line either. :) I'd also go through all the vacuum connections, replacing old hoses and vacuum lines, ONE LINE AT A TIME. Also tighten down the intake manifold bolts. hope this helps. john - - ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 22:10:04 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Michelin Cross Terrain Tires vs. LTX ATs I've found that Michelin and BFG tires (same company) seem to work the best overall. They hold up well, perform well on wet roads (BFG ATs when siped), are quiet and ride nicely... The yokohama geolanders I have now are pretty decent, at least on the road and in snow, off-road they're pretty useless. The yoko superdigger IV's I had on a big GM 4x4 were pretty decent, but were replaced with the V's years ago... :( Looking at the tires recommended on the michelin site I found the Cross Terrain SUVs- the details below are for the SR, the HR - didn't score as high... (they had three options, passenger car ride, all-around and high performance or something like that...) P245/70R16 was the tire I was looking at... ranking 1 - 10 (according to michelin) TIRE: LTX M/S - CT/SR ================================= Wet - 7 - 9 - important handling - 8 - 9 - important QUIET - 9 - 10 - important high perf - 7 - 8 off-road - 7 - 6 winter - 8 - 10 max tread life - 9 - 9 mud - 7 - 6 - ----------------------------------------------------- overall score 7.7 - 8.9 Michelin Cross Terrain Tires 245/70R16 Cross Terrain http://tires.michelin-us.com/catalog/tires/crossTerrainSUV.html Michelin LTX A/Ts (have these on my J10, very good tires) http://tires.michelin-us.com/catalog/tires/ltxms.html 4wheelparts - (thanx jim for the link) list: $149.95 sale $119.95 http://www.4wheelparts.com/tires_info.asp?sku=MIC97768&brand=MICHELIN - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 22:17:28 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: carb backfire problem Garry, you have to let us know what you find out... :) Also, if you can provide a bit more info on how it ran before you "tuned it up" might be helpful. Jim is providing some additional worse case scenarios. I don't think it'll be an ignition connector problem or a power valve. The ignition connector would most likely give you stalling problems and I've yet to have a power valve give me backfiring through the carb... just crappy gas mileage and smoke out the tailpipe... But these problems COULD cause your symptoms too, but my GUESS is that isn't the problem. :) I just have a hunch it has to do with the spark plug wires... I can feel it... of course you didn't give me a lot of info to work with and there is a whole litany of things it could be... even more than Jim cites. :) But let's not let our imaginations run away with us yet, that tends to get expensive in cases like this. :) (been there done that... and have the extra parts left over... ;) john At 10:05 PM 12/2/01 -0800, James Blair wrote: >A: My first thought (besides the vacuum leak commonality) would be the >ignition connector problem on the Bid ignition the '77 has. The >distributor plug in was supposed to be removed, and the wires soldered >together. (per TSB I read on the AMC list) > The power valve is likely gone, causing a flooded condition, which >temporarily snuffs the spark, then as it clears, the spark is slowed >down so much that it's still burning in the cylinder when the intake >valve opens, which makes a backfire, just like retarded engine timing >would. > One of the worst case scenarios is a wiped out cam lobe (exhaust >especially) or cam walking forward under RPM. It will change the engine >timing all over the place, till it wipes out the dist drive gear and >shuts off. (there will be marks inside the timing chain cover from it >touching because V8 AMCs didn't come with cam buttons like the later >4.0L six cyls did) > A very sloppy timing chain will cause trouble like this too. > >From: john > >At 09:48 PM 12/2/01 -0600, Garry Ellison wrote: >chick.bibitte-at-sk.sympatico.ca >Hi John >Great site, thanks. I just bought a 77 jeep cherokee chief with a 360. >Compression is great but it backfires throught the carb. I replaced the >spark plug, wires, distributor cap and rotor. Checked the float in carb. >Are my valves sticking or what. while checking out the problem i pulled >the new plugs out to check compression and they are all black. Any info >you can give would be greatley appreciated.buy the way I checked timing >but don't know what the setting should be >thanks Garry Ellison > >Gary, >I'm going to make a wild guess having had the same trouble with my '77 >Wagoneer and say that you might have two plug wires switched... baffled >me... I figured the worse too... :) >The cylinders are numbered from front to rear: 1-3-5-7 on the left bank >and 2-4-6-8 on the right bank with the firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. >(this applies to the 304, 360 and 401 engines). >You didn't mention whether it has a 2v or 4v carb. The letter code N is >the 2v, P is the 4v. >For an Automatic the timing is supposed to be 8 deg BTC (range 6 to 10 >deg btc is ok) 700 rpm (600-800 ok) Standard plug RN12Y 0.033 - 0.037 >gap >alternate plug N12Y >If the timing is too far advanced, or even too far retarded, or if a >couple of the wires are switched it'll back fire through the carb... >ALSO, (unlikely scenarios follow) if the distributor is off one tooth, >or the timing chain slipped, or the camshaft key has slipped a bit... >those things could do it too. HOWEVER, unless something traumatic has >happened, or you just got this thing and it's never run before, I >wouldn't go down that route until you check the firing order and timing. >If it was running before you tuned it, it's >real easy to get the wires switched. >I'm very careful to switch only ONE wire at a time... of course this >only works if it was running before you got it and the previous owner >didn't screw it up. :) >That's what happened to me. I assumed the plug wires were right, so when >I replaced them one by one I didn't check the order... couldn't figure >out why it had no power and was backfiring... I assumed the worst... >finally got around >to checking the wires and that fixed it. :) >Usually this stuff is simple. ALWAYS check the simple stuff before >panicking. Don't let some mechanic sell you a rebuild because you had a >bad vacuum line either. :) >I'd also go through all the vacuum connections, replacing old hoses and >vacuum lines, ONE LINE AT A TIME. Also tighten down the intake manifold >bolts. >hope this helps. >john >- > >************************************* >JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche >http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ >http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 >************************************** - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 22:31:35 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: Michelin Cross Terrain Tires vs. LTX ATs A: Now that I get a close look at them, the CT tires are almost identical tread to the Avon 255/85/16 tires I bought for Elmo, but will probably end up on Black Jack (even though I'm getting the urge to go for at least 38" tires and lower gears) ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 22:31:38 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Michelin Cross Terrain Tires vs. LTX ATs the LTX tires are slightly more aggressive... but the better performance on WET road and being Quieter is making the choice for my wife's Jeep (the WJ) the Cross Terrain.... price isn't too bad either, thanx for the link jim... SuperDawg will retain his LTX's. :) john At 10:31 PM 12/2/01 -0800, James Blair wrote: >A: Now that I get a close look at them, the CT tires are almost >identical tread to the Avon 255/85/16 tires I bought for Elmo, but will >probably end up on Black Jack (even though I'm getting the urge to go >for at least 38" tires and lower gears) > >************************************* - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 2001 00:27:56 MST From: Michael Shimniok Subject: fsj: 2002 FSJ Calendar Great news everyone!! Mark Welle (the same person who printed Rich's fine calendars last year) has put together a nice collection of vintage FSJ ads in calendar format for 2002 and they're now available! See http://www.cfsja.org/2002/Calendars for samples and ordering. Cost is $18, $35 for 2, and $17 each for 3 or more! Shipping is $4 for 1-3 calendars, $8 for 6-9 calendars. The calendars are being sold by the CFSJA to support the 2002 Invasion. You can pay securely online by credit card or you can send a check. I've done my best to make online ordering fast, convenient, and painless thru Paypal. Here are some more details from Mark! - - - - Hello Fellow FSJer's!! I hope this finds you and your Jeep(s) all well this holiday season. Believe it or not, it's time once again for the 2nd annual FSJ calendar to be released! Last years inaugural edition was a big hit, and this years will be even better! The 2002 Edition of the FSJ calendar will be a special one. I have received permission to produce a full color, 12 month calendar using classic FSJ print ads from the 60's and 70's. These are all full color ads that I have collected over the years, which will be reproduced into a 2002 calendar. These ads are classics, and will include all ad text copy and graphics for a complete ad that details the early FSJ features and capabilities. Don't miss this opportunity to get a special calendar full of FSJ history. The calendar will be produced through the middle of January, but PLEASE order early to avoid the big rush. The calendars will be printed 'portrait' style, meaning the pages will be printed "the tall way" When hanging on the wall, the calendar will be 8 1/2 inches wide, and 22 inches long (2-11" pages) Something like this: ----------------- | | | FSJ | | ad | | | | | ------------------ | | | | | calendar | | | | | ------------------ Just think of 2 standard pieces of paper, one above the other. The calendar will be coil bound, and include a hole for hanging. Last year, the calendars sold for about $20 each. This year, a better calendar (I think :-) ), chock full of FSJ history will sell for even LESS!! One calendar is $18.00, two for $35.00 and $17 each for 3 or more. Local folks can pick up their calendars at my shop near Denver, Colorado to avoid shipping if you choose. - - - - This is Michael writing again... Payment can be made either by credit card (via Paypal online secure payments) or personal check to The Colorado Full Size Jeep Association (CFSJA). To place your order, visit http://www.cfsja.org/2002/Calendars/order.html 1. Enter the number of calendars you want. 2. If you plan to pick them up from the store, check "Pick up locally". 3. Now click Calculate. This will fill in the totals. 4. Click the Paypal icon. 5. Next either login with your existing paypal account or sign up for a new one (I believe you can receive a $5 sign-up bonus). 6. Be sure to set up your home address for your Paypal account! 7. In the "Shipping Instructions" text box on Paypal, include: a. Your full name b. Your phone number If you are ordering by personal check, go to the webpage above, enter the number of calendars you want, click "Pick up locally" if you're picking up calendars in Denver metro, click Calculate, then use the calculated numbers to help you write your check. Include a piece of paper with: a. Your Full name b. Your phone c. Your address d. The number of calendars you want e. Local pickup or not Send the check and piece of paper to: CFSJA 6557 S Dexter Street Centennial, CO 80121 Any checks that arrive after December 19 I won't be able to process until December 28 when I get back in town. Sorry. Once we get your payment, we will make sure it is for the correct amount and make sure all the info is provided otherwise we'll contact you. We will ship it out as soon as possible (remember we have full time jobs and holidays to get ready for but we'll do our very best!) :) We'll ship via USPS Priority Mail. To avoid the holiday rush order as soon as possible! If you have questions, email cfsja-at-cfsja.org Thank you for your time, and we look forward to printing these great historic FSJ Calendars for each and every one of you. Mar - --- 86 GW "Troubled Child" 360/NP208/3"exh/4"lift/31"BFGAT 85 GW "Backhoe" 360/3"exh/2"lift/31"BFGATKO/Lockrite ------------------------------ Date: 3 Dec 2001 00:50:25 MST From: Michael Shimniok Subject: fsj: 2002 Calendars: correction Michael Shimniok wrote: > Cost is $18, $35 for 2, and $17 each for 3 or more! Shipping is $4 for > 1-3 calendars, $8 for 6-9 calendars. Make that $4 for 1-3 calendars, $8 for 4-6 calendars, $12 for 7-9 calendars. Sorry for the confusion! Michae - --- Michael Shimniok - KC0EKI - "A computer without Microsoft Michael.Shimniok-at-USA.NET is like a dog without bricks http://pw2.netcom.com/~shimniok/ tied to its head..." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 08:24:12 -0700 From: "Daniel Beiers" Subject: fsj: Wipers...not wiping Guys, any help/hints for fixing a winshield wiper malfunction. motor turns, seems to be grinding on the wiper transmission linkage. the wipers don't move at all. an tricks for digging into it. i am assuming ats going to be a huge pain in the butt. do i have to go i unser the dash, i.e. remove most or all of the dash stuff? there is a enough snow, ice, and chemicals on the road that i really can't drive the thing. any tips or direction that can be offered will be greatly appreciated. dan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:33:21 -0600 From: "Ken Gaines" Subject: RE: [RE: fsj: mileage and the 2wd myth ] 31x10.5x15 Liberator AT. I don't particularly like the tires and I know the gears are relatively high. I am considering a swap to 3.56 or even 3.73 diff gears when I get the funds to do both axles at the same time. My bro in law works at the Firestone plant in Houston and is bringing me five 33x12.5x15 tires in exchange for the Dana 44 axles in my parts-truck 1979 Wagoneer (not my current FSJ project). I think that is a pretty even swap. IRT the T4, it is simply a POS 4-speed with the 1:1 4th gear. Man wouldn't I love to have bought that NV4500 I found about 6 months ago. The junkyard dealer wanted $200 for it, but it needed a 3rd gear and a mainshaft...about $1100 worth of parts JUST to rebuild the tranny...then comes the $$$$ of the bellhousing kit and the body lift/transfer case lowering kit and the new driveshafts to make it all fit right. That is why I decided that the 727 would be just as good or better than the 5-speed manual...if I did the swap right. I am also planning to use this CJ as a kid-hauler...the automatic tranny will be much easier to deal with when I have a Jeep full of kids than would be a manual tranny. This weekend I got the 727 ready to install in the CJ. In fact, the CJ is at home right now as it has no drivetrain in it at the moment. The transfer case bolted right up to the 727...with the exception of the "clocking" bolt. The is simply an extra bolt that is offset to keep the T/C in the right configuration. I just didn't use it. No big deal. There are still 6 BIG bolts holding it on the tailshaft adapter. Now, the last of the project consists of simply hoisting the tranny and T/C into the CJ with the help of an A-frame and a come-along and installing the shifter, cooler, and driveshafts. The whole thing wasn't all that much longer (to the eye) than the T-4/Dana300 combination. I'll measure it all tonight and post the measurements if anyone is interested. So...hope everyone has a great day. I'll be back on later. Ken - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Shimniok [mailto:michael.shimniok-at-usa.net] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 05:39 PM To: Ken Gaines Subject: Re: [RE: fsj: mileage and the 2wd myth ] Unless you get an OD tranny or had one (T-4 isn't is it?) nothing will change cuz everything is 1:1 in hi gear. Except your rpms will go up cuz you have some constant slippage in the torque converter... 3.08 gears are pretty hi geared... what kind of tires? Michael "Ken Gaines" wrote: > Speaking of automatic transmissions....I am about to do a swap in the CJ > from POS T-4 to AMC 727/Dana 300 driveline components. I am sick and tired > of the T-4 rattling and generally performing poorly when I need it to work. > I have 3.08 gears in the CJ axles and I am wondering if the RPMs will drop > with the new transmission. I want the 65mph RPMs to come down some. I have > all the parts I need to complete this swap...I just need the time to do it. > Oh...I know that the clocking of the 727 T/C adapter is different from that > of the POS T-4. Several sources have told me that simply omitting the offset > "clocking" bolt is the way to overcome this problem. Are there any other > little oddities that I need to know BEFORE I get the T-4 transmission out of > the CJ? My driveshafts will be a little short (AFAICT) but that is a problem > that will be dealt with when I get the new shafts made next week. > Any other tips would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Ken > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Dan > Black > Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 04:47 AM > To: Full Size Jeeps > Subject: Re: fsj: mileage and the 2wd myth > > > john said: > {- But full time 4wd over 2wd makes such little difference it's not > {- worth the loss. Remember you're still pulling the weight around, > {- and on most 4x4's that have 2wd mode you're still spinning the > {- driveshaft and axles unless you have hubs, which isn't a good thing > {- on an NP229... > > Hey, you don't have to tell me. ;) I'm obviously willing to sacrifice > the mileage for 4wd and other details, as are most of us on the list. > Naturally we'll keep trying to find ways for better mileage, but we're > not willing to give up a lot of the stuff that made us fall in love with > the Jeeps in the first place. :) > > {- Jeep did a study on what it saved to not spin the driveshaft and axles, > {- they claim .1 mpg, that's 1/10th mpg... > {- So 2wd for economy is a myth. > > Well, putting it in 2wd instead of leaving it in 4wd all the time will > save you quite a bit, but of course you didn't mean it quite that way. > The better mileage of vehicles with no 4wd available typically comes > from things like the vehicle being lower (more aerodynamic - less drag) > and having less weight. And, of course, vehicles with 4wd options are > typically less aerodynamic bodies in the first place, if you're > comparing trucks to cars. Et cetera, et cetera... We all know the > drill. :) > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Time flies like an arrow. > Fruit flies like a banana. > -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- > dan-at-black.org -------------- > - --- Michael Shimniok - KC0EKI - "A computer without Microsoft Michael.Shimniok-at-USA.NET is like a dog without bricks http://pw2.netcom.com/~shimniok/ tied to its head..." ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1512 **************************