From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Mar 12 15:06:32 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, March 12 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1588 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Alpine Loop Scenic Byway(Ouray) Re: fsj: Engine Swap fsj: Axle Swap - What to check? Re: fsj: Getting to Ouray fsj: Re: Help! and more help! fsj: Ouray times Re: fsj: Engine Swap fsj: Steering box? Re: fsj: Steering box? Re: fsj: Getting to Ouray Re: fsj: Alpine Loop Scenic Byway(Ouray) Re: fsj: Getting to Ouray FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:45:15 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: Alpine Loop Scenic Byway(Ouray) Hi, looks like a good alternative for the adventurous in getting to Ouray from the Southwest is to take the cutoff between Lake City and Ouray (US550) 4WD is required, and you will cross Engineer Pass: 12000+ feet. Sounds good to me, I think I'll go in the daytime. Lots to see, so I hope this is one of the planned trail rides and we can go back. http://www.gorp.com/gorp/activity/byway/co_alpin.htm Is there a difficulty index for Colorado or other offroad trails? Sort of like #4 rapids. Oh yeah. I'm reserved at the KOA in Ouray - Aug 14-16. It's about $25/night. Virginia said she has several reservations made from FSJ folks. - - Landon '89 GW Austin. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:08:21 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Engine Swap A: Another way you could do it is buy the Jeep inline 6 cyl EFI conversion kit, and put the 50 state sticker on the header panel, and drop a Holley Pro-Jection 2DI on there, then sell the rest of the kit off. Put in a high flow catalytic converter, and change your timing chain. That should take care of the tiredness problem! (TIC) If you go with a transplant, then cost out the adapter kit first and add that to the cost of the engine. Then keep in mind that most states require your transplant to pass the emissions of the year of the motor, not the rig. (you wouldn't believe the mess I went through trying to get my '68 Plymouth into the US because my uncle put a '69 motor in!) If you just change the motor, then the high mileage drivetrain may not hold up. If you go motor andtrans with case, then you make/adapt motor/trans mounts, exhaust and driveshafts plus wiring and possibly radiator. Don't forget power steering hoses and matching style pumps (I once put a pump in a car that had no pressure control valve in either pump or box, and it drove straight forward fine, but touch the wheel to go either way, and it would spin, and almost snap your fingers off!) '88 and newer GM are LH drop as well. From: "Daniel Beiers" I've been thinking about my 85 grand wagoneer engine. the 360 is high miles and a tiny bit tired. with emissions being what they are in colorado and emission systems being what they were in 85 i am trying to think of another alternative to rebuilding the amc 360. i was thinking a late model FI engine. complete trade out kind of thing. question is can i adapt my tranny to another engine (i think its a 727) or my tcase to another tranny (say 700r4 or e40d)? or maybe i could even use another tcase (could i get the linkage to work and the selec-trac switch? i am not into cutting holes in my floor). it a drivers side drop so s ford drive-train might be a good option... anyway just looking for thoughts, testimonials, experiences! thanks guys dan ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 MJ http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ Black Jack's before pic: http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/FESTS/Snohomish-April2-2000/PIC00004.JPG ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:12:20 -0800 From: "Faith Jeff" Subject: fsj: Axle Swap - What to check? hi all, i'm going to look at a couple axles with disk brakes tonight to maybe put in my 63...a matched 6-lug set from a blazer. front is spring-over, well i guess the rear is too but i digress. Q: what dimensions need to be the same for them to fit? the pads/perches for the springs need to be the same width apart??...is there anything else i need to check? thanks, jeff This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, contains information from Prescription Solutions which may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy all electronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:13:54 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Getting to Ouray A: I'm changing all fluids (well, my axles will be changed anyways!) U-joints (since they will be custom length) and pack spares. A spare rear yoke and U-straps will be coming as well (seems to be the parts that break the most) Spare oil, Anti-freeze (pre-mix), gas (steel Jerry can for others. Mine will be a BBQ tank since I'm going LPG) From: Dan Black Tesar Landon-r16884 said: {- also, how should we tune our jeeps to take advantage of the Colorado {- elevation ? There's the standard pre-flight check... In other words, before you go, check all the U-joints, engine mounts, maybe make sure it's been oiled and greased recently, good battery with plenty of distilled water, etc. You might end up adjusting the carb a bit if you know how, but all I know is that if you adjust it, you'll probably end up leaning it out a bit; I'm not an expert on that. I've heard you can get adjustable jets for the carbs fairly cheap which let you adjust for elevation quicker and easier and more effectively, but I don't have any personal experience with them. Might make sure you bring a can or two of carb starter stuff. And it might just take some patience at some elevations: I noticed with I think both the old '84 I had and my current '88 (both 360s -- and counting the '88 only when it was still the stock 2bbl carb) that, coming from Iowa (~1000'), they did a lot of wheezing around south Denver, through Colorado Springs, and pretty much til around Canon City, which meant roughly in the 6000-7000' range. The '88 died completely a couple times and had to wait several minutes for it to dry up. But once I made it past there, above 7000' (even went above 10000' with the '84 on trails once), they basically didn't sputter or complain a bit. Power was almost what it was here in Iowa, and I didn't have the slightest problem starting them in the morning. (My dad always used to flood an '85 Ford van, V8/351/4bbbl, each morning at 8000', then wait 10-20min, and it would be ok the rest of the day. No such problems with my GWags after 7000' or so.) Ouray is ~7800', so same general elevation. So even if your FSJs have trouble around 6000-7000', and even if they die once or twice (allow extra time), I'd try to make it to Ouray before making any adjustments -- they may be unnecessary. (I'm just hoping my fuel injection will do better -- and hopefully I'll know before then since I'm planning two Colorado trips before the Invasion.) BTW, I just happened on this on the web: http://www.ouraylodging.com/ If the motels are charging $100/night, this looks like a nice inn for the same price! ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 MJ http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ Black Jack's before pic: http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/FESTS/Snohomish-April2-2000/PIC00004.JPG ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:58:00 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Help! and more help! I'm thinking ignition module... or related wiring... pull all the connections you can find, squirt some Amsoil MP or electrical contact cleaner in and reconnect... it may be a heat related failure of the dist. pickup or the ign module itself... you might try splashing some water on the ignition module to see if anything changes... john On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Barry Campbell wrote: >-->Hello again John, >--> >-->Some other symptoms that may help us: The night this first happened I parked >-->the truck for about an hour while I waited for my wife to pick me up. I >-->tried to start it and was successful in getting it running and drive it home >-->on it's own power with only slight changes in performance. I pulled the >-->distributor cap the next morning and saw that I did not push the new rotor >-->completely down so I fixed that and reassembled for a test ride. After about >-->5 minutes at 65mph she died again and I putted backwards (with a couple back >-->fires) up the on ramp. My wife brought me a new fuel filter which I >-->installed right there. I reassembled and went for another test ride after >-->difficulty starting up (smoke through the air cleaner). I stopped at a >-->station and put in some gas and drove for about 15 minutes before the same >-->situation occured for the third time. I made it home and there it now sits. >--> >-->I have noticed that this engine is rather gutless and sluggish overall. The >-->timing chain had been replaced by my uncle just before I owned it last year. >-->The carb was recently rebuilt and installed by me. >--> >-->I REALLY appreciate your response and am thankful to report that I do have >-->Jesus and look forward to an eternity sharing jeep stories with you in >-->heaven!! Hopefully it won't take an eternity to solve this problem! >--> >-->Thanks, >--> >-->Barry Campbell >-->PS. 18:32-36 >--> >-->PS- Do you have any pet suppliers of FSJ parts and accessories? I was >-->digging through an old Jeep Mag. and found a couple cast valve covers after >-->I already replaced my cracked one with another plastic one. Bummer. >--> >-->-----Original Message----- >-->From: john >-->To: Barry Campbell >-->Cc: fsj-at-digest.net >-->Date: Saturday, March 09, 2002 5:53 PM >-->Subject: Re: Help! >--> >--> >-->>At 07:25 PM 3/9/02 -0800, Barry Campbell wrote: >-->>>Hello John, >-->>>I own an 81' wagoneer and have a problem. I was driving on the highway and >-->>>suddenly i lost all power and coasted to a stop with what seemed like one >-->>>or two cylinders still firing. I was able to idle and putt my way to >-->>>safety but I am clueless as to what may be the cause. Can you help? >-->>>Thank You, >-->>>Barry Campbell >-->> >-->>You didn't mention any ugly rattling or banging noises, so that's a >-->>good start. :) >-->> >-->>Ideas on the malady: >-->> >-->> - fuel pump, fuel filter clogged, bad gas, out of gas, carb died >-->> - ignition module failed, wiring powering ignition module failed >-->> - electrical failure in ignition system >-->> - camshaft broke (would expect some noise and backfiring) >-->> >-->>That's about it... if there was any backfiring, smoke or pieces external >-->>that should have been internal then things might be different. >-->> >-->>But this sounds like either a fuel or ignition system failure. >-->> >-->>If you can look in the carb and operate the throttle and see gas getting >-->>squirted in, and smell gas, then the next thing to check is the ignition. >-->> >-->>Have someone you want to get even with unplug the coil wire and then >-->>crank the engine while this victim holds the end of the cable coming >-->>out of the coil, recommend having them lean against the engine with >-->>the same hand, unless you really don't like them, then have them hold >-->>the engine with the opposite hand... ;) Seriously, what you want >-->>to do is pull the coil wire and rest it near the engine block and >-->>crank... if you see a spark that's a start... question is will it >-->>be enough to get the engine going... >-->> >-->>The fact that you sputtered along indicates that you had some spark... >-->> >-->>Now, another thought is that you could have jumped a tooth on the >-->>timing chain, it might act like this too, and probably wouldn't >-->>make any noise... maybe... does it backfire or poof through the >-->>carb when you crank it? >-->> >-->>ok, so, we're looking for fuel and spark. If you have both then >-->>we're looking to see if they happen at the right time and the right >-->>place. >-->> >-->>Likely suspects: fuel pump, fuel filter, carb, ignition module, >-->> coil, wiring harness, distributor, and related wires, switches >-->>and connectors... >-->> >-->>With out much more info that's my best guess. If there was noise >-->>that you didn't mention then things may be more serious... >-->> >-->>Does it start back up at all? >-->> >-->>john >-->>------------------------------------------------------------------ >-->> http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ >-->> Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >-->> jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >-->>------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:44:37 CST From: Dan Black Subject: fsj: Ouray times Quick question: What nights are people getting reservations for? The official Invasion dates are Aug 15-17, which is Thu-Fri-Sat. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, trusty soda machine, I push you for root beer, you give me Coke. -- Willow - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:45:57 -0600 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: Re: fsj: Engine Swap We were just talking about this on another FSJ list.. You could use a chevy 350, providing that you get a trans adapt plate, to adapt the bell housing, for the tranny. The 350 is by far cheaper, more abundant, better mileage, and more power. the 350 is around 600 to 700 bucks ..new.. t while, the rebuilt long block AMC 360, is around 1,000 to 1200 bucks.. ;) R.J. Daniel Beiers wrote: > I've been thinking about my 85 grand wagoneer engine. the 360 is high miles > and a tiny bit tired. with emissions being what they are in colorado and > emission systems being what they were in 85 i am trying to think of another > alternative to rebuilding the amc 360. i was thinking a late model FI > engine. complete trade out kind of thing. question is can i adapt my > tranny to another engine (i think its a 727) or my tcase to another tranny > (say 700r4 or e40d)? or maybe i could even use another tcase (could i get > the linkage to work and the selec-trac switch? i am not into cutting holes > in my floor). it a drivers side drop so s ford drive-train might be a good > option... anyway just looking for thoughts, testimonials, experiences! > > thanks guys > dan > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:05:38 -0600 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: fsj: Steering box? Okay, before I make a big goose chase I may not have to.. Before I drive 1500 miles to Ouray.. I feel the desperate and the safety needs, to be working on the considerable play in the steering wheel on my 80 J-10 Honcho.. I feel the looseness in the front end when I drive at higher speeds, which is starting to scare me! Controlling is becoming a big issue at interstate speeds.. and I have 10.5 ..33" tires and 4.09 gears at stock height ! I really need sure footed stability! Yes, I have already adjusted it, as best as it will go.. it is just plain worned out.. It travels about 3 to 4 inches before it starts to turn.. and at highway speeds, say 70 on the interstate, bumping along, it is like wrestling a boa constrictor, that likes to wiggle.. plus the powers steering pump's hoses are slightly wet.. but not a big deal.. But one thing i did notice in the cold mornings, the loss of power steering briefly, until you twist the steering wheel a few hard times , then the power returns.. why.. I do not know.. But I think it might be a good idea to replace the worn out gears in the steering box.. or the whole box all together.. So.. where do I go to get the parts.. and how hard is this job to do? Thanks for any help! R.J. Huntsville AL. 80 J-10 honcho ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:37:30 CST From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Steering box? "R.J. Baynum" said: {- But I think it might be a good idea to replace the worn out gears in {- the steering box.. or the whole box all together.. {- So.. where do I go to get the parts.. and how hard is this job to do? It's not too hard to replace, but it isn't quick and clean, either. A good used box should be fairly easy to find at a junkyard for a bit over $50. And if you're really worried about doing it right, I would think a professional should be able to put it in for an hour's labor. On the '88, mine actually tore the steel bracket off the frame. It got looser and looser over several days until I literally turned the steering wheel three or four full times to make a 90deg turn, and didn't necessarily go back all the way. That was pretty interesting -- but a relatively easy fix for the mechanic or anyone good at welding. (That must've been about a year ago.) We also went to replace the steering box once because it looked like the box itself was leaking, got it almost completely off, and found the hose on it had three 1" parallel (running along the length of the hose) gashes at the end, right before the box, where we couldn't see them until we got it almost off. Couldn't easily find an official one -- I think the parts stores were closed -- so we got a similar-sized yellow high-pressure hose at Lowe's. We were a little concerned it might not tolerate the heat in the summer, but I haven't had any problems. :) That was probably over a year ago, maybe two. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety Gotta be a place where they can't find me Watching all those bridges burn behind me -- The Bangles - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:53:17 -0600 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: Re: fsj: Getting to Ouray Check out their web site they had some tips on the high alt adjustments that should making before going.. R.J. Dan Black wrote: > Tesar Landon-r16884 said: > {- also, how should we tune our jeeps to take advantage of the Colorado > {- elevation ? > > There's the standard pre-flight check... In other words, before you go, > check all the U-joints, engine mounts, maybe make sure it's been oiled > and greased recently, good battery with plenty of distilled water, etc. > > You might end up adjusting the carb a bit if you know how, but all I > know is that if you adjust it, you'll probably end up leaning it out a > bit; I'm not an expert on that. I've heard you can get adjustable jets > for the carbs fairly cheap which let you adjust for elevation quicker > and easier and more effectively, but I don't have any personal > experience with them. > > Might make sure you bring a can or two of carb starter stuff. And it > might just take some patience at some elevations: I noticed with I think > both the old '84 I had and my current '88 (both 360s -- and counting the > '88 only when it was still the stock 2bbl carb) that, coming from Iowa > (~1000'), they did a lot of wheezing around south Denver, through > Colorado Springs, and pretty much til around Canon City, which meant > roughly in the 6000-7000' range. The '88 died completely a couple times > and had to wait several minutes for it to dry up. But once I made it > past there, above 7000' (even went above 10000' with the '84 on trails > once), they basically didn't sputter or complain a bit. Power was > almost what it was here in Iowa, and I didn't have the slightest problem > starting them in the morning. (My dad always used to flood an '85 Ford > van, V8/351/4bbbl, each morning at 8000', then wait 10-20min, and it > would be ok the rest of the day. No such problems with my GWags after > 7000' or so.) Ouray is ~7800', so same general elevation. So even if > your FSJs have trouble around 6000-7000', and even if they die once or > twice (allow extra time), I'd try to make it to Ouray before making any > adjustments -- they may be unnecessary. (I'm just hoping my fuel > injection will do better -- and hopefully I'll know before then since > I'm planning two Colorado trips before the Invasion.) > > BTW, I just happened on this on the web: http://www.ouraylodging.com/ > If the motels are charging $100/night, this looks like a nice inn for > the same price! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left. > -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:15:04 -0600 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: Re: fsj: Alpine Loop Scenic Byway(Ouray) I am thinking about the cabins.. I think though the double beds might be a little tight for me and the wife.. grin.. R.J.... Tesar Landon-r16884 wrote: > Hi, > > looks like a good alternative for the adventurous in getting to Ouray from the Southwest is to take the cutoff between Lake City and Ouray (US550) > 4WD is required, and you will cross Engineer Pass: 12000+ feet. Sounds good to me, I think I'll go in the daytime. > > Lots to see, so I hope this is one of the planned trail rides and we can go back. > > http://www.gorp.com/gorp/activity/byway/co_alpin.htm > > Is there a difficulty index for Colorado or other offroad trails? Sort of like #4 rapids. > > Oh yeah. I'm reserved at the KOA in Ouray - Aug 14-16. It's about $25/night. Virginia said she has several reservations made from FSJ folks. > > - Landon > '89 GW > Austin. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:19:11 -0600 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: Re: fsj: Getting to Ouray I am doing the same thing.. Gear oil mostly.. just did the tranny, two months ago.. doing the transfer too.. the make the adjustments for the high altitudes.. R.J. James Blair wrote: > A: I'm changing all fluids (well, my axles will be changed anyways!) > U-joints (since they will be custom length) and pack spares. A spare > rear yoke and U-straps will be coming as well (seems to be the parts > that break the most) > Spare oil, Anti-freeze (pre-mix), gas (steel Jerry can for others. > Mine will be a BBQ tank since I'm going LPG) > > From: Dan Black > > Tesar Landon-r16884 said: {- also, how > should we tune our jeeps to take advantage of the Colorado {- elevation > ? > There's the standard pre-flight check... In other words, before you go, > check all the U-joints, engine mounts, maybe make sure it's been oiled > and greased recently, good battery with plenty of distilled water, etc. > You might end up adjusting the carb a bit if you know how, but all I > know is that if you adjust it, you'll probably end up leaning it out a > bit; I'm not an expert on that. I've heard you can get adjustable jets > for the carbs fairly cheap which let you adjust for elevation quicker > and easier and more effectively, but I don't have any personal > experience with them. > Might make sure you bring a can or two of carb starter stuff. And it > might just take some patience at some elevations: I noticed with I think > both the old '84 I had and my current '88 (both 360s -- and counting the > '88 only when it was still the stock 2bbl carb) that, coming from Iowa > (~1000'), they did a lot of wheezing around south Denver, through > Colorado Springs, and pretty much til around Canon City, which meant > roughly in the 6000-7000' range. The '88 died completely a couple times > and had to wait several minutes for it to dry up. But once I made it > past there, above 7000' (even went above 10000' with the '84 on trails > once), they basically didn't sputter or complain a bit. Power was almost > what it was here in Iowa, and I didn't have the slightest problem > starting them in the morning. (My dad always used to flood an '85 Ford > van, V8/351/4bbbl, each morning at 8000', then wait 10-20min, and it > would be ok the rest of the day. No such problems with my GWags after > 7000' or so.) Ouray is ~7800', so same general elevation. So even if > your FSJs have trouble around 6000-7000', and even if they die once or > twice (allow extra time), I'd try to make it to Ouray before making any > adjustments -- they may be unnecessary. (I'm just hoping my fuel > injection will do better -- and hopefully I'll know before then since > I'm planning two Colorado trips before the Invasion.) > BTW, I just happened on this on the web: http://www.ouraylodging.com/ If > the motels are charging $100/night, this looks like a nice inn for the > same price! > > ************************************* > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 MJ > http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ > Black Jack's before pic: > http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/FESTS/Snohomish-April2-2000/PIC00004.JPG > ************************************** ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1588 **************************