From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Mar 22 16:45:19 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, March 22 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1597 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: Re: fsj-digest V1 #1595 Re: fsj: Exhaust fsj: EFI vrs Carb? Re: fsj: Exhaust fsj: Ouray reservations and options fsj: Montessori method of Jeep building fsj: more EFI vrs Carb FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:46:17 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Re: fsj-digest V1 #1595 On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, seevers wrote: >-->I'm doing okay! The D300 is sitting in my garage waiting for me to buy >-->another FSJ... >-->-brad >-->> brad! how are ya! What'd you do with that 300 you bought >-->> at Olympic? You did part with your '82 didn't you? >-->> john so what are your plans, FSJ related? I'm getting a '75 J10 without engine/trans/xfr case. Plan on using the back end for a trailer, and have been thinking about putting the cab on a wagoneer chassis and building a flatbed, and of course using a Diesel engine of some sort for propulsion. :) On the other hand someone might rescue the J10 from my evil plans, someone with say a D300 and the know-how to put it back on the road... ;) The buzzard(s) have been circling over the carcass for some time now... I haven't had time to drag it home and my friend is still using it to hold his trans/xfr case for his Jeep collection. Neither one of us is in a hurry. :) I'm also thinking that the axles might be useful under my son's '77 Cherokee, he's got 3.55's, the J10 has 4.10s. Problem is I don't think the axle mounts are the same btwn the J10 and the NT Chero. The cab isn't that great, but still... I hate to trash an FSJ... the windshield is broken, front fenders damaged, etc... nothing serious. I'm still thinking that the cab on a Wag chassis with a Diesel is the best use of the front of it. The back end will make a nice trailer for SuperDawg. :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:44:29 -0600 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: Re: fsj: Exhaust So what's wrong with the carb? maybe just a good rebuild is all you need? mine works great.. But hey. still look at the fuel injectors anyway, just be more picky now that your educated about it and know more about them , and understand the faults about them.. other wise you will be okay! hop on the phone and web .. call up Edelbrock.. do some research.. you never know what is out here until you look.. Do not give up! Go out and win one for FSJ's!! R.J. "the coach" Baynum 80 J-10 Honcho Huntsville AL. Vince Orr wrote: > Ouch!!! And here I thought I had a real plan for my new engine......now I'm > back to square one. All I know is that I'm going to take the Motorcrap carb > off and throw it as far away from the vehicle as I can! I really need a > fuel delivery solution that I can trust. > --Vince > '81 Wag > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "R.J. Baynum" > To: "Vince Orr" > Cc: ; "Full Size Jeep" ; > <1FSJ-at-yahoogroups.com>; > Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:32 PM > Subject: Re: fsj: Exhaust > > > hmm I don't think so.. > > But hold on .. I was talking to Mr. white at "White Carb " here in > Huntsville, the > > last of the great carb shops that has been in business for a hundred > years, and is > > a real live guru of carbs.. He is THE guy you go to around here.. > > when he talks.. you listen... > > And this is what he had to say about the after market fuel injection > system... > > "The after market fuel injections is a lot of Expensive hype, that is not > all > > that it is cracked up to be, and is a complete waste of money," he said. > "One of > > the biggest problems is the fact that the "System" has to many ways to > > mechanically adjust it, in different areas, thus has to many variables, > and is not > > computer controlled like a factory model made specifically for that > specific > > engine.". Too many things to get out of whack, very easily.." No solid > state > > computers" "I know allot of people who has plunked down a few thousand > bucks > > thinking they was getting a better performance and better gas mileage, > when in > > fact they was really not much better off then when they were when they had > the > > original stock carburetor." > > "I think If you keep your power valve replaced ( which is the only big > flaw in the > > motor craft 2150 ) every couple years, a properly tuned carb can last for > many > > years". > > > > He said it was much better to stick with the stock carb I had. > > They are cheap to rebuild too.. ( 50 bucks for the kit including power > valve,, > > complete with instructions, even I could do it.;) > > > > R.J. Baynum > > 80 J-10 Honcho > > Huntsville AL. > > > > > > > > > > Vince Orr wrote: > > > > > Do you need a heat riser on a fuel injected motor? > > > --Vince > > > '81 Wag > > > '99 TJ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "R.J. Baynum" > > > To: "James Blair" > > > Cc: > > > Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 3:18 PM > > > Subject: Re: fsj: Exhaust > > > > > > > That is all the Heat riser was for,.. is to let the warm air rise to > get > > > to the > > > > carb in the automatic choke, temp sensor coil, as it warms the coil > spring > > > it > > > > backs down the auto choke.. > > > > right? > > > > > > > > R.J. > > > > > > > > James Blair wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: "Brian Turner" > > > > > > > > > > Ok on the exhaust how is the best way to fix stock eshust problem > with > > > > > the heart riser problem? How do you replace the riser with out > spenting > > > > > 85 bucks on a new one. And if you do remove how do you seal the > exhaust > > > > > with a flat gasket? Do you braze in the old one with out guts or > gasket? > > > > > Is there a replacement part that takes its place with out guts? Have > to > > > > > take the Jeep back in a couple of days to get done. Because the next > > > > > progect is the flex plate, which involese dropping the exhaust to > get to > > > > > the tranny and transfer case. Have to move them to replace the flex > > > > > plate. Right now the flex plate sound better than a machine gun. So > it > > > > > is only a mover in the drive way. Brian > > > > > 73 Wag > > > > > 78 Cherokee > > > > > & Nephew's 79 Wag > > > > > > > > > > A: The heat riser can be replaced with a solid open piece or weld up > the > > > > > holes where the old hinge came through. It just makes your motor run > > > > > rougher cold. > > > > > > > > > > ************************************* > > > > > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 MJ > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ > > > > > Black Jack's before pic: > > > > > http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/FESTS/Snohomish-April2-2000/PIC00004.JPG > > > > > ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:16:39 -0600 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: fsj: EFI vrs Carb? here is some post from the CFSJA group about the EFI vrs. Carb.. if you cam make heads or tails of it, Ii will post in order, of the digest in whichit came to me, or go over ther and look in there, Join, the CFJA group and browse the archives.. This is digest # 1080 These are their opinions.. R.J. ~*~*~*~**~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~***~*~*~*~* Message: 3 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 18:06:25 -0000 From: "shimniok" Subject: Re: EFI vs. Carb continued. - --- In cfsja-at-y..., "JC Jones" wrote: > If you have enough spares, or have a degree in EE with all your > test equipment and service tools along I think EFI would be > fantastic. Heh, maybe that is why I like the EFI option... altho my degree technically is in computer engineering but that is probably more applicable to the digital side of an EFI system than EE... assuming I can remember any of what I learned!! :D I will probably get a diagnostic reader and carry spares of the major stuff. If you ask me, I think it is a myth that electronics are inherently less reliable than mechanicals. I have a Mac Centris 650 bought in 1993 that still operates flawlessly. My 486/100 never had any failures for years. The VAIO is '95 vintage and no electronics failures. I am running 3 Mac 7500's all of which are used. No problems. My Thinkpad 760EL (P133) has never given me the slightest trouble and it is a used unit that is years old with an unknown history. To bring it home, my Nissan is a 1993 with 90k on the clock and I've never had any problems with EFI (or mechanical). A friend does electronic ignition conversions for Datsun roadsters and has found an extremely high rate of functional, good ignition modules out of old datsun pickups and cars in the junkyard. One friend had a 1987 Maxima that had 140 on the clock and only died when the computer got submerged. Another friend has a 96 Chevy pickup and it has never had a single problem and probably has well over 100k on it now. How often do you hear of electronics failures in figher jets, bombers, or passenger jets? What's the ratio of hours logged versus failures. Or planes versus failures. Now... electronics CAN be less reliable. But since it is in the best interest of GM (or any car manufacturer) to engineer electronics and use quality components so that their 100,000-miles-before-a-tuneup- cars actually make it to 100k before falling apart, and because they can afford to design and test systems extensively, I submit that vehicle electronics are actually highly reliable. We have a tainted view because of our confounding, evil Duraspark ignition systems that die at the drop of a hat. I even remember my Mom's 80 Thunderbird had the module go out at like 50k miles. Pathetic. But then, my 76 Buick never had the HEI go out -- it was the only thing on the car that never broke! :) I think so many of us have been stranded by these (*!&-at-!#! Ford ignition systems that we view all electronics as questionable. Michael ~*~*~**~**~*~***~*~**~*~*~*~*~**~*~**~*~*~**~*~*~**~*~*~**~*~**~*~* Message: 17 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 20:10:10 -0700 From: "davenkellyn" Subject: Re: Re: EFI vs. Carb continued. number of times I've seen a carb failure on the trail resulting in abandonment = 0. number of times I've seen dumbfounded EFI failures on the trail = 4. Number of these fixed on the spot. = 0. If worse came to worse, I could swap the whole dang carb in about 10 minutes. I've heard this jet plane theory before, sounds pretty cool, but jet and propeller aircraft are designed with redundant systems so that they can continue on when there is a failure. By the way, an F-16 requires 2.2 hours of maintenance for every hour flown. Good thing I don't drive one of those. These two things may explain there lack of reported failures. It just seems like I do that much maintenance. A tune-up consists of changing plugs, fuel filter and PCV valve. These items don't fail much. They may just last 100k miles. We adjust a lot of things, and replace alot of sensors in those 100k miles. The whole reason I can write this, is that over at the dealership, I see electronics failures all day. I sell auto parts. They are what put me through college and helped me to buy a house, and Jeep. I'm not here to rain on the parade or step on toes or start flames or whatever, I'm just saying that when I'm 35 miles out from the nearest soul, I feel alot better that I'm running a carb, and as long as I have a few hand tools and maybe a spare powervalve, I can fix any possible failure with a carb. With EFI, things start to look a lot bleaker. I have a good head for EFI, but I still prefer the good old carburetor for the backcountry. Dave Nothstein 1979 Cherokee - ----- Original Message ----- From: "shimniok" To: Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 11:06 AM Subject: [cfsja] Re: EFI vs. Carb continued. > --- In cfsja-at-y..., "JC Jones" wrote: > > > > > > If you ask me, I think it is a myth that electronics are inherently > less reliable than mechanicals. > > > How often do you hear of electronics failures in figher jets, > bombers, or passenger jets? What's the ratio of hours logged versus > failures. Or planes versus failures. > > Now... electronics CAN be less reliable. But since it is in the best > interest of GM (or any car manufacturer) to engineer electronics and > use quality components so that their 100,000-miles-before-a-tuneup- > cars actually make it to 100k before falling apart, and because they > can afford to design and test systems extensively, I submit that > vehicle electronics are actually highly reliable. > > > > Michael > >~*~*~*~***~**~*~*~**~*~*~*~**~*~*~*~*~**~*~*~**~*~**~*~***~*~*~*~* Message: 22 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:42:14 -0700 From: Ethan Subject: Re: Re: EFI vs. Carb continued. At 08:10 PM 3/21/02 -0700, you wrote: >I'm not here to rain on the parade or step on toes or start flames or >whatever, I'm just saying that when I'm 35 miles out from the nearest soul, >I feel alot better that I'm running a carb, and as long as I have a few hand >tools and maybe a spare powervalve, I can fix any possible failure with a >carb. With EFI, things start to look a lot bleaker. I have a good head for >EFI, but I still prefer the good old carburetor for the backcountry. >Dave Nothstein >1979 Cherokee All good points. The Holley TBI has a "limp home" mode in case the TPS (throttle position sensor for all you crusty old carb guys and gals ) dies. The only other REQUIRED items are the two (or 4) injectors (easy to carry an extra as I HAVE had an injector go bad on my Corsica after 70K mileS), a fuel pump and the brain box. All are small and compact to carry and aren't REALLY prone to failure anyways. Aside from a major failure like the wiring harness frying, that's all there is to it. It's really a matter of what you wanna learn about and what you're comfortable with. There are lots of folks that know carbs just as well as I know certain cameras. And since I'm gonna install my TBI, I'm sure i'll know my way around that, too. Even so, I'll still carry backup stuff, but not so far as to bring a whole extra carb with me. :-) From: Ethan ~*~*~**~*~*~**~**~*~**~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~**~*~ Message: 23 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:43:18 -0700 From: Ethan Subject: Re: Re: FI vs carbs At 05:51 AM 3/21/02 -0000, you wrote: >I recomend an endelbrok everyone of my friends that ia have talked >to said they are really good for four wheeling, maybe opinion not >fact but i like the carburationr better then the fI just because >price and personal reason >kyle spragg >1987wag "GW" Price is an issue. But look -at- new carbs vs used TBI's. There's not equal, but it's not much more for a TBI unit. Plus, I'm looking to not stall out on Poughkipsie this year! From: Ethan Subject: Re: Re: FI vs carbs ~*~*~*~***~*~**~*~*~*~**~*~*~*~*~*~**~*~*~*~**~*~*~***~***~*~***~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:50:28 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Exhaust A: Don't let the naysayers influence you. I still get "LPG isn't usable as a fuel" crap from people all the time, and I have logged well over 100,000 miles with it! The Holley Pro-Jection unit is being used by many people on these lists (If I had a V8, I'd run it). It doesn't give you stellar fuel economy (14 to 16 mpg seems the norm) but it only cost -at-$1000 for parts. Ray D is running it on his rig w/o any great problems. He posted the fuel map he figured out for AMC V8s on the 1FSJ site I think. Heck, even I once thought EFI and electronic ignition were hoodoo! (same goes for computers!) A quick course in their function, and the internet for explanations of what I didn't know, and I'm off! From: "Vince Orr" Ouch!!! And here I thought I had a real plan for my new engine......now I'm back to square one. All I know is that I'm going to take the Motorcrap carb off and throw it as far away from the vehicle as I can! I really need a fuel delivery solution that I can trust. - - --Vince '81 Wag ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:09:57 CST From: Dan Black Subject: fsj: Ouray reservations and options Well, I only got a couple responses about reservations for Ouray, especially what nights to get reservations for (or how early/late events will go on Thursday and Saturday) and non-hotel options, but based on what I _did_ hear from a couple people, I reserved a KOA Kamping Kabin for Wed-Thu-Fri-Sat nights (checkout on Sunday). So that's Wed 14 Aug til morning of Sun 17 Aug. For those interested, the KOA Kamping Kabins (I'll refrain from abbreviating that further ;) ) are $49/night. Or if you have more than two people, it's just $4/person extra. (The prices listed on the web site say $3/person extra, but I think that's for normal campsites only, and they say $46-49 for the Kabins...) The Kabins are just simple one-room things with a full-size bed and a bunk bed (no linens), a bench to put your shoes on, and a light. Also a small porch with a porch swing, fire pit, and grill outside. And they said you can change your reservations up to a week before, so if I find out something different about the schedule later, I can always choose fewer nights. (And their campsites were around $30/night, I think.) So with that in mind, I might take the whole week off from work (and probably option the next Monday) and spend a few days at my parents' place in CO first. :) You're welcome to complain more about a cabin of any kind not being "true camping", but it's closer than a hotel, and I figure this will help prevent rain. (If I camp that long with just a tent, it will pour the whole time.) And I can do "true camping" just fine, but that's not the purpose of this trip for me. And that's all I have to say on that subject. :) Here are some more URLs you may be interested in if you're looking to make reservations: main FSJ Invasion page: http://www.cfsja.org/2002/ Ouray's main page: http://www.ouraycolorado.com/ Note the "Lodging" link at the left. KOA's Ouray page with rates: http://www.koakampgrounds.com/where/morekampgroundinfo/06158rates.htm and the Kabins, though I can't connect to this site right now: http://www.rver.com/OurayKOA/ouraykoa.htm A cabin-style house in Ouray. Very nice looking. Says they'll rent for as few as three nights, and the Ouray "Lodging" page says it's $115+/night, which wouldn't be bad at all for that. Nice big stone fireplace, high ceilings, wood burning stove, 3BR, two queens and a full-size and two full-size futons, full kitchen, W/D, two full baths, patio. If I were planning to spend much time at the cabin, I'd be very tempted to go with this if it's really $115/night. http://geocities.com/cozypine/ Another cabin in the area, south of town, and way up in the mountain. Sounds fun, need 4wd to get there... The main thing I don't like about it is it says it has an indoor toilet, but no water -- I mainly want a shower every day. $75/night for 3, $15/person/night for more people: http://skihuts.com/Mountain%20Belle.htm They also have one with a shower, nicer all around, though the toilet is an outhouse 20' away and it's more expensive. $95/night for 3, $20/person/night for more people: http://skihuts.com/Addie-S.htm Availability link on the left; they're still open for the Invasion dates. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When cryptology is outlawed, bayl bjgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:17:46 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: Montessori method of Jeep building A: This sums up my way of doing things too! (so wheres my money?) From: "Ed Tapanes" Subject: Re: Re: FS: running 401 (Lockport, NY) Jeff, I'm sorry, I occassionally get a bad case of "obscure reference syndrome" (also known as the Earl Lackeneir disease)... Montessori refers to a teaching 'method' for young children where there's not a lot of structure and the children are kinda left to develop on their own. The thought being that structure crushes their little creative spirits. Mind you that for this "lack of structure", most Montessori schools charge you an arm and a leg (read rich kid school). I set my kids straight about this right off, explaining how they probably wouldn't amount to anything anyways so why waste money on a-schoolin...(toss another book on the fire junior, it's getting cold in here) LOL, that's great! I'm gonna start using that one as well! Later, Ed T. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:37:54 -0600 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: fsj: more EFI vrs Carb more EFI vrs carb, from CFSJA list.. R.J. very interesting.. ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~**~ Message: 1 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:59:01 -0700 From: "JC Jones" Subject: RE: Re: EFI vs. Carb continued. I really have nothing against electronics in general, just look at the dashboard of my J-10. I just tend to expect the worst, and I know that I can fix a point type ignition, or rig a carb to make it home. I like to keep critical systems as simple as possible so that hopefully I wont have any failures that leave me stranded anywhere. That's one of the reasons I want a Diesel in my J-10, no ignition system at all and a mechanical fuel injection system (can't get much more simple then that). I have to agree that most factory installed EFI sytems or electronic ignition systems are very reliable, unfortunately Ford is an exception, and that's what AMC chose to use. JC Jones http://www.wagoneer.net 1979 Jeep J-10 "Max" 1984 Grand Wagoneer "Eeyore" 1978 MB 300D "Fritz" 1986 Jeep XJ Cherokee "Junior" * * * * * =================== "They that can give up * * * * =================== essential liberty to * * * * * =================== obtain a little ============================= temporary safety ============================= deserve neither ============================= liberty nor safety." ============================= -Benjamin Franklin - -> -----Original Message----- - -> From: shimniok [mailto:michael.shimniok-at-usa.net] - -> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 11:06 AM - -> To: cfsja-at-yahoogroups.com - -> Subject: [cfsja] Re: EFI vs. Carb continued. - -> - -> - -> --- In cfsja-at-y..., "JC Jones" wrote: - -> > If you have enough spares, or have a degree in EE with - -> all your test - -> > equipment and service tools along I think EFI would be fantastic. - -> - -> Heh, maybe that is why I like the EFI option... altho my degree - -> technically is in computer engineering but that is probably more - -> applicable to the digital side of an EFI system than EE... - -> assuming I - -> can remember any of what I learned!! :D - -> - -> I will probably get a diagnostic reader and carry spares of - -> the major - -> stuff. - -> - -> If you ask me, I think it is a myth that electronics are inherently - -> less reliable than mechanicals. I have a Mac Centris 650 bought in - -> 1993 that still operates flawlessly. My 486/100 never had any - -> failures for years. The VAIO is '95 vintage and no electronics - -> failures. I am running 3 Mac 7500's all of which are used. No - -> problems. My Thinkpad 760EL (P133) has never given me the slightest - -> trouble and it is a used unit that is years old with an unknown - -> history. - -> - -> To bring it home, my Nissan is a 1993 with 90k on the clock and I've - -> never had any problems with EFI (or mechanical). A friend does - -> electronic ignition conversions for Datsun roadsters and has - -> found an - -> extremely high rate of functional, good ignition modules out of old - -> datsun pickups and cars in the junkyard. One friend had a 1987 - -> Maxima that had 140 on the clock and only died when the computer got - -> submerged. Another friend has a 96 Chevy pickup and it has - -> never had - -> a single problem and probably has well over 100k on it now. - -> - -> How often do you hear of electronics failures in figher jets, - -> bombers, or passenger jets? What's the ratio of hours logged versus - -> failures. Or planes versus failures. - -> - -> Now... electronics CAN be less reliable. But since it is in - -> the best - -> interest of GM (or any car manufacturer) to engineer electronics and - -> use quality components so that their - -> 100,000-miles-before-a-tuneup- cars actually make it to 100k - -> before falling apart, and because they - -> can afford to design and test systems extensively, I submit that - -> vehicle electronics are actually highly reliable. - -> - -> We have a tainted view because of our confounding, evil Duraspark - -> ignition systems that die at the drop of a hat. I even remember my - -> Mom's 80 Thunderbird had the module go out at like 50k miles. - -> Pathetic. But then, my 76 Buick never had the HEI go out -- it was - -> the only thing on the car that never broke! :) I think so - -> many of us - -> have been stranded by these (*!&-at-!#! Ford ignition systems that we - -> view all electronics as questionable. - -> - -> Michael - -> - -> - -> TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST, send blank email to - -> cfsja-unsubscribe-at-yahoogroups.com - -> - -> List admin Michael Shimniok (cfsja-owner-at-yahoogroups.com) - -> - -> Website - http://www.cfsja.org/ - Webmaster Toby DeMoss - -> (toby-at-cfsja.org) - -> - -> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to - -> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ~~_~~*~*~**~*~*~*~*~*~*~**~*~*~**~*~*~*~**~*~*~**~*~ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 07:58:04 -0700 From: "Thompson, Charlie" Subject: RE: Re: EFI vs. Carb continued. Putting EFI on a FSJ is like trying to make a dinosaur dance. It will be fun and exciting most of the time, but you just may get your toes stepped on. My advice? Wear steel toe boots :-0 How many guys with factory fuel injected Jeeps pull the EFI and put on carburetors? Come on James, lets put a carb on that TJ. Point is comparing aftermarket systems to factory ones is apples and oranges. My car, Fords economy model, has never had a mechanical or electrical failure in 140,000 miles. Can't say that about my carbureted Jeep. It goes through the Eisenhower tunnel with the same vengeance as it does up Floyd hill. Can't say that about my carbureted Jeep. It starts with barely a turn of the crank no matter the elevation. Can't say that about my carbureted Jeep. The car has passed emissions every time at far below the limit. Can't say that about my carbureted Jeep. The car makes 130hp from 1.8 liters (72hp per liter), the carbureted Jeep make a pitiful 175hp from 5.9 liters (30 hp per liter). I could go on but you get the point. Oh one more thing, The car sucks on the trail, is small inside, and can't tow crap. I wish Chrysler had seen fit to put Fuel injection on the last of the FSJs, Lord knows at 30K each they were making some serious coin on each and every sale. That leaves us stuck to either try to modernize them ourselves or sticking with what worked best for so many years. Carburetors. ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:53:30 -0000 From: "shimniok" Subject: Re: Quadrajet vs Motorcraft 2150: who is the carb champ? All I know is I've used 2150's off-road exclusively off-road on some fairly hardcore trails since I started wheeling in 98 and I think they're excellent. Been on 3-1/2 rated trails, maybe a couple of 4's but have not done what I'd call extreme rock crawling. I've been pointed up, down, and a little sideways and gone over some mondo bumps overly fast. The only times I've stalled were not due to the carb but usu due to climbing with inadequate traction then letting off the gas quick (ie, pilot error). The 2150 got me through all of Crystal Mountain, the hard part of Rose Garden Hill, all of Gold Bar Rim, all of Kane Creek Trail, all of Spring Creek, all of Poughkeepsie Gulch, all of California Pass, and several others with no problems. My 2150 ran way too rich above 10,000' or so with #55 jets but seemed to be more tolerable with #52's. Never ran a Q-jet off-road. I'm about to take a 1400 with offroad needles/seats (I may lower the floats as Edelbrock recommends too) to Moab, so it'll be interesting to compare. Never wheeled this carb before. Frankly I'm afraid to. It was intended only as a stopgap until I had EFI. Maybe I better take a spare 2150... Michael - --- In cfsja-at-y..., "JC Jones" wrote: > I've got a 2150 on Max now, and based on my previous experience with > Q-Jet's off road on Chevy's, that's what's going on Max as soon as I get > the engine swap done. > > JC Jones http://www.wagoneer.net ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1597 **************************