From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Mar 24 11:16:17 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, March 23 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1598 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Re: Re: fsj-digest V1 #1595 Re: fsj: Ouray reservations and options fsj: RE: Re: EFI vs. Carb continued. fsj: rally Wag picture fsj: TH400 Questions fsj: RE: twin stick Dana 20 Re: fsj: TH400 Questions fsj: Digital vs. Analog fsj: who wanted a rare Dodge? Re: fsj: Exhaust fsj: Holley vs. Microsoft (was "Digital vs. Analog") fsj: charging trouble fsj: RE: Holley vs. Microsoft (was "Digital vs. Analog") FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:57:58 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Re: fsj-digest V1 #1595 A: It's a waste of a good Jtruck though. At least the one my son is still trying to get papers for is likely a bent frame so chopping is more reasonable. The cab would have a weaker frame on the Wag frame. The front axle mounts are the same, but the rears are different, and the rear is wider so scalloping the fenders will be necessary. From: john On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, seevers wrote: I'm doing okay! The D300 is sitting in my garage waiting for me to buy another FSJ... - -brad brad! how are ya! What'd you do with that 300 you bought at Olympic? You did part with your '82 didn't you? john so what are your plans, FSJ related? I'm getting a '75 J10 without engine/trans/xfr case. Plan on using the back end for a trailer, and have been thinking about putting the cab on a wagoneer chassis and building a flatbed, and of course using a Diesel engine of some sort for propulsion. :) On the other hand someone might rescue the J10 from my evil plans, someone with say a D300 and the know-how to put it back on the road... ;) The buzzard(s) have been circling over the carcass for some time now... I haven't had time to drag it home and my friend is still using it to hold his trans/xfr case for his Jeep collection. Neither one of us is in a hurry. :) I'm also thinking that the axles might be useful under my son's '77 Cherokee, he's got 3.55's, the J10 has 4.10s. Problem is I don't think the axle mounts are the same btwn the J10 and the NT Chero. The cab isn't that great, but still... I hate to trash an FSJ... the windshield is broken, front fenders damaged, etc... nothing serious. I'm still thinking that the cab on a Wag chassis with a Diesel is the best use of the front of it. The back end will make a nice trailer for SuperDawg. :) john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:02:55 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Ouray reservations and options A: I'll be at the KOA (my wife wants to get a room, and I said "You're coming?" and she gave me that look. I figure by then she will have changed her mind and go to visit family in E. TN and VA as she doesn't "do" camping and gets scared on the tame roads we have around here with 100 foot dropoffs!) From: Dan Black Well, I only got a couple responses about reservations for Ouray, especially what nights to get reservations for (or how early/late events will go on Thursday and Saturday) and non-hotel options, but based on what I _did_ hear from a couple people, I reserved a KOA Kamping Kabin for Wed-Thu-Fri-Sat nights (checkout on Sunday). So that's Wed 14 Aug til morning of Sun 17 Aug. For those interested, the KOA Kamping Kabins (I'll refrain from abbreviating that further ;) ) are $49/night. Or if you have more than two people, it's just $4/person extra. (The prices listed on the web site say $3/person extra, but I think that's for normal campsites only, and they say $46-49 for the Kabins...) The Kabins are just simple one-room things with a full-size bed and a bunk bed (no linens), a bench to put your shoes on, and a light. Also a small porch with a porch swing, fire pit, and grill outside. And they said you can change your reservations up to a week before, so if I find out something different about the schedule later, I can always choose fewer nights. (And their campsites were around $30/night, I think.) So with that in mind, I might take the whole week off from work (and probably option the next Monday) and spend a few days at my parents' place in CO first. :) You're welcome to complain more about a cabin of any kind not being "true camping", but it's closer than a hotel, and I figure this will help prevent rain. (If I camp that long with just a tent, it will pour the whole time.) And I can do "true camping" just fine, but that's not the purpose of this trip for me. And that's all I have to say on that subject. :) Here are some more URLs you may be interested in if you're looking to make reservations: main FSJ Invasion page: http://www.cfsja.org/2002/ Ouray's main page: http://www.ouraycolorado.com/ Note the "Lodging" link at the left. KOA's Ouray page with rates: http://www.koakampgrounds.com/where/morekampgroundinfo/06158rates.htm and the Kabins, though I can't connect to this site right now: http://www.rver.com/OurayKOA/ouraykoa.htm A cabin-style house in Ouray. Very nice looking. Says they'll rent for as few as three nights, and the Ouray "Lodging" page says it's $115+/night, which wouldn't be bad at all for that. Nice big stone fireplace, high ceilings, wood burning stove, 3BR, two queens and a full-size and two full-size futons, full kitchen, W/D, two full baths, patio. If I were planning to spend much time at the cabin, I'd be very tempted to go with this if it's really $115/night. http://geocities.com/cozypine/ Another cabin in the area, south of town, and way up in the mountain. Sounds fun, need 4wd to get there... The main thing I don't like about it is it says it has an indoor toilet, but no water -- I mainly want a shower every day. $75/night for 3, $15/person/night for more people: http://skihuts.com/Mountain%20Belle.htm They also have one with a shower, nicer all around, though the toilet is an outhouse 20' away and it's more expensive. $95/night for 3, $20/person/night for more people: http://skihuts.com/Addie-S.htm Availability link on the left; they're still open for the Invasion dates. ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:09:13 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: fsj: RE: Re: EFI vs. Carb continued. A: I'm going one stage further. I'm making my '84 J10 dance a different tune! Liquid propane fuel injection (although it may run just gasoline for the Ouray trip with LPG mixer added) on a stroked 4.6L motor (4.0L block, head and pistons with 4.2L crank and rods with -at-11:1 compression, 275 HP and 300 ftlbs of torque) From: "Thompson, Charlie" Putting EFI on a FSJ is like trying to make a dinosaur dance. It will be fun and exciting most of the time, but you just may get your toes stepped on. My advice? Wear steel toe boots :-0 How many guys with factory fuel injected Jeeps pull the EFI and put on carburetors? Come on James, lets put a carb on that TJ. Point is comparing aftermarket systems to factory ones is apples and oranges. My car, Fords economy model, has never had a mechanical or electrical failure in 140,000 miles. Can't say that about my carbureted Jeep. It goes through the Eisenhower tunnel with the same vengeance as it does up Floyd hill. Can't say that about my carbureted Jeep. It starts with barely a turn of the crank no matter the elevation. Can't say that about my carbureted Jeep. The car has passed emissions every time at far below the limit. Can't say that about my carbureted Jeep. The car makes 130hp from 1.8 liters (72hp per liter), the carbureted Jeep make a pitiful 175hp from 5.9 liters (30 hp per liter). I could go on but you get the point. Oh one more thing, The car sucks on the trail, is small inside, and can't tow crap. I wish Chrysler had seen fit to put Fuel injection on the last of the FSJs, Lord knows at 30K each they were making some serious coin on each and every sale. That leaves us stuck to either try to modernize them ourselves or sticking with what worked best for so many years. Carburetors. ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:33:19 +0000 From: Gary Clark Subject: fsj: rally Wag picture Sorry, find the picture at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cfsja/ I should have said the yahoo group website for cfsja Join the group to join for the fsj digest people. Gary ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:43:06 -0800 From: "Phillips, Scott" Subject: fsj: TH400 Questions I've got a '76 Wag with the 401, TH400 and Quadratrac. I'm interested in swapping the Quadratrac out for a Dana 300 (I've got a pair of Dana 60's just waiting to go in). What I don't know is will the Jeep Dana 300 bolt up to a TH400 that's setup for Quadratrac? If not then who (aside from AA) offers adapters? Thanks for the info Scott ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:46:03 -0800 From: "Phillips, Scott" Subject: fsj: RE: twin stick Dana 20 Sorry for the LONG delay John but you can get a nice factory twin stick setup by using a Scout 20. Most of them came with a twin stick setup factory. You can basically unbolt it from the Scout 20 and bolt it into you Jeep 20 and be good to go. Scott looking for a twin stick shifter setup for a Dana 20 for my son's '77 Cherokee... The shifter quit working and we figure it's better to "improve" than just repair... I've been told a '71 IH or earlier will work. Leads? Links? phone numbers? or if you have one, do you take paypal? :) john ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:10:18 -0600 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: Re: fsj: TH400 Questions Why? I think the Quadra trac is better and the Dana 44 is a tougher drive line.. If it's not broke don't fix it... some people want a dana 44 and the quadra trac.. not to get rid of it.. shaking the head..in disgust.. R.J. "Phillips, Scott" wrote: > I've got a '76 Wag with the 401, TH400 and Quadratrac. I'm interested in > swapping the Quadratrac out for a Dana 300 (I've got a pair of Dana 60's > just waiting to go in). What I don't know is will the Jeep Dana 300 bolt up > to a TH400 that's setup for Quadratrac? If not then who (aside from AA) > offers adapters? > Thanks for the info > Scott ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:51:36 -0800 From: john meister Subject: fsj: Digital vs. Analog aka, Fuel injection vs. Carbs carbs basically suck. I do agree with the thought that aftermarket TBI's aren't much better. They're a lot of work to install and get working. That's why I decided to install a complete engine with the factory fuel injection. There's a lot to it too, but when it's done it'll be better than a carb setup. As far as reliability, fuel injection is far less problematic than you might think. As far as carbs go I do like Weber/Edelbrock though. My son is yanking his Holley Commander off of the '77 Cherokee and installing the Edelbrock 1406. :) I'm sure he'll be pleased. His Jeep went from 8.5 mpg down to 6... running real rich. Stupid Holley carbs... I'm not sure which I like less, Holley's or Microsoft, but that's another discussion. ;) john - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:04:26 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: who wanted a rare Dodge? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1813641325 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 08:13:19 -0600 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: Re: fsj: Exhaust RJ wrote: > So what's wrong with the carb? maybe just a good rebuild is all you need? mine > works great.. A: Rebuilt mine about 3 years ago. Ran fine for quite a while then started having troubles. Probably due for another kit. I suspect powervalve is bad. I probably complain too much...the motorcrap carb actually works OK once the engine warms up. Dumps a lot of gas to keep the engine running when cold. I've checked all the carb settings against my technical repair manuals and all seems fine with the carb otherwise. It's one of the funky ones with the altitude compensator on the back side of the carb. > But hey. still look at the fuel injectors anyway, just be more picky now that your > educated about it and know more about them , and understand the faults about > them.. other wise > you will be okay! > hop on the phone and web .. call up Edelbrock.. do some research.. you never know > what is out here until you look.. > Do not give up! > Go out and win one for FSJ's!! A: I seem to remember reading in one of my magazines about a new Edelbrock or Holly carb that is built for radical angles. Supposidly the engine won't stall......if you believe that. As I'm not a very good electrical man, I think I'll take some advice and stick with a carburator setup. Now.....what to get???? Hmmmmmm..... > R.J. "the coach" Baynum > 80 J-10 Honcho > Huntsville AL. > > Vince Orr wrote: > > > Ouch!!! And here I thought I had a real plan for my new engine......now I'm > > back to square one. All I know is that I'm going to take the Motorcrap carb > > off and throw it as far away from the vehicle as I can! I really need a > > fuel delivery solution that I can trust. > > --Vince > > '81 Wag > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "R.J. Baynum" > > To: "Vince Orr" > > Cc: ; "Full Size Jeep" ; > > <1FSJ-at-yahoogroups.com>; > > Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:32 PM > > Subject: Re: fsj: Exhaust > > > > > hmm I don't think so.. > > > But hold on .. I was talking to Mr. white at "White Carb " here in > > Huntsville, the > > > last of the great carb shops that has been in business for a hundred > > years, and is > > > a real live guru of carbs.. He is THE guy you go to around here.. > > > when he talks.. you listen... > > > And this is what he had to say about the after market fuel injection > > system... > > > "The after market fuel injections is a lot of Expensive hype, that is not > > all > > > that it is cracked up to be, and is a complete waste of money," he said. > > "One of > > > the biggest problems is the fact that the "System" has to many ways to > > > mechanically adjust it, in different areas, thus has to many variables, > > and is not > > > computer controlled like a factory model made specifically for that > > specific > > > engine.". Too many things to get out of whack, very easily.." No solid > > state > > > computers" "I know allot of people who has plunked down a few thousand > > bucks > > > thinking they was getting a better performance and better gas mileage, > > when in > > > fact they was really not much better off then when they were when they had > > the > > > original stock carburetor." > > > "I think If you keep your power valve replaced ( which is the only big > > flaw in the > > > motor craft 2150 ) every couple years, a properly tuned carb can last for > > many > > > years". > > > > > > He said it was much better to stick with the stock carb I had. > > > They are cheap to rebuild too.. ( 50 bucks for the kit including power > > valve,, > > > complete with instructions, even I could do it.;) > > > > > > R.J. Baynum > > > 80 J-10 Honcho > > > Huntsville AL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vince Orr wrote: > > > > > > > Do you need a heat riser on a fuel injected motor? > > > > --Vince > > > > '81 Wag > > > > '99 TJ > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "R.J. Baynum" > > > > To: "James Blair" > > > > Cc: > > > > Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 3:18 PM > > > > Subject: Re: fsj: Exhaust > > > > > > > > > That is all the Heat riser was for,.. is to let the warm air rise to > > get > > > > to the > > > > > carb in the automatic choke, temp sensor coil, as it warms the coil > > spring > > > > it > > > > > backs down the auto choke.. > > > > > right? > > > > > > > > > > R.J. > > > > > > > > > > James Blair wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Brian Turner" > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok on the exhaust how is the best way to fix stock eshust problem > > with > > > > > > the heart riser problem? How do you replace the riser with out > > spenting > > > > > > 85 bucks on a new one. And if you do remove how do you seal the > > exhaust > > > > > > with a flat gasket? Do you braze in the old one with out guts or > > gasket? > > > > > > Is there a replacement part that takes its place with out guts? Have > > to > > > > > > take the Jeep back in a couple of days to get done. Because the next > > > > > > progect is the flex plate, which involese dropping the exhaust to > > get to > > > > > > the tranny and transfer case. Have to move them to replace the flex > > > > > > plate. Right now the flex plate sound better than a machine gun. So > > it > > > > > > is only a mover in the drive way. Brian > > > > > > 73 Wag > > > > > > 78 Cherokee > > > > > > & Nephew's 79 Wag > > > > > > > > > > > > A: The heat riser can be replaced with a solid open piece or weld up > > the > > > > > > holes where the old hinge came through. It just makes your motor run > > > > > > rougher cold. > > > > > > > > > > > > ************************************* > > > > > > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 MJ > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ > > > > > > Black Jack's before pic: > > > > > > http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/FESTS/Snohomish-April2-2000/PIC00004.JPG > > > > > > ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 08:19:00 CST From: Dan Black Subject: fsj: Holley vs. Microsoft (was "Digital vs. Analog") john meister said: {- As far as carbs go I do like Weber/Edelbrock though. My son {- is yanking his Holley Commander off of the '77 Cherokee and {- installing the Edelbrock 1406. :) I'm sure he'll be pleased. His {- Jeep went from 8.5 mpg down to 6... running real rich. Stupid {- Holley carbs... I'd like to try an Edelbrock sometime; I'm tempted to try one as a temporary measure on my '74 until I can afford fuel injection for it, too. I fully agree on the Holley. As I've said before, there seem to be two camps on the topic of Holleys -- those that think they're fairly decent and those that despise them (usually due to experience). Last summer I joined the latter. Anybody here in the former, especially anybody who's actually installed and gotten good performance from a Holley on their FSJ? I don't doubt there are a few, but the percentage of success stories (out of total attempts) seems pretty low. {- I'm not sure which I like less, Holley's or Microsoft, but that's {- another discussion. ;) Well, though I'm not fond of Microsoft in principle, I do like their stuff on the Mac (ironic, but their Mac team is actually good -- they hired most of them directly away from Apple, after all). And despite jokes about MS cars (renewed since there are some that will have Windows CE in them now), Microsoft didn't leave me stuck in CO and NE paying over $1K for towing and "repairs" by people who didn't know as much as they claimed and really fixed absolutely nothing. In fact, even though win95 is on the laptop I was using, the OS kept running fine when the engine just simply stopped with no warning (not even a sputter) at 80mph on the NE interstate. And I can't say with 99% certainty that I will never use another MS product on my own computers -- I actually think MIE5 on the Mac is the best browser ever made (literally). As you can guess, I _can_ say that about Holley. I really would be interested to hear any success stories from people on this list with Holleys they installed on their FSJs. (Not one your neighbor got already installed on a used car with a custom Chevy 350.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My brains are spilling out! -- Marfalump - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 08:28:57 -0700 From: wp3 Subject: fsj: charging trouble i would appreciate any help on this one. evr since my old alternator went out, i have not been able to get the charging system to charge the battery fully anymore. i have changed the alternator and the battery, even took out the radio and cb thinking that they were grounded. i jump start the truck let it run for 20-30min and the battery is still dead as a door nail. any help would be great. thanks will 80 j10 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:28:13 -0700 From: "JC Jones" Subject: fsj: RE: Holley vs. Microsoft (was "Digital vs. Analog") No holly's for off-road. I had a Holly 750 DP on my 70 Chevelle and it was fantastic for 1/4 mile and cruising around town. I did have to adjust the darn thing weekly, but that was the way of nearly everything on that car. As for off-road, go with a Q-Jet. Cheap, reliable, won't flood or starve in off-camber situations, better mileage, etc. I am wholly un-impressed with the edelbrock 14xx series for off-road. They are a relatively good performance carburetor if you want decent performance and don't want the hassles of weekly maintenance, but they can't hold a candle to the Q-Jet for an all purpose carburetor. JC Jones http://www.wagoneer.net 1979 Jeep J-10 "Max" 1984 Grand Wagoneer "Eeyore" 1978 MB 300D "Fritz" 1986 Jeep XJ Cherokee "Junior" * * * * * =================== "They that can give up * * * * =================== essential liberty to * * * * * =================== obtain a little ============================= temporary safety ============================= deserve neither ============================= liberty nor safety." ============================= -Benjamin Franklin - -> -----Original Message----- - -> From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On - -> Behalf Of Dan Black - -> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 7:19 AM - -> To: Full Size Jeeps - -> Subject: fsj: Holley vs. Microsoft (was "Digital vs. Analog") - -> - -> - -> john meister said: - -> {- As far as carbs go I do like Weber/Edelbrock though. My son - -> {- is yanking his Holley Commander off of the '77 Cherokee and - -> {- installing the Edelbrock 1406. :) I'm sure he'll be pleased. His - -> {- Jeep went from 8.5 mpg down to 6... running real rich. Stupid - -> {- Holley carbs... - -> - -> I'd like to try an Edelbrock sometime; I'm tempted to try - -> one as a temporary measure on my '74 until I can afford fuel - -> injection for it, too. - -> - -> I fully agree on the Holley. As I've said before, there - -> seem to be two camps on the topic of Holleys -- those that - -> think they're fairly decent and those that despise them - -> (usually due to experience). Last summer I joined the - -> latter. Anybody here in the former, especially anybody - -> who's actually installed and gotten good performance from a - -> Holley on their FSJ? I don't doubt there are a few, but the - -> percentage of success stories (out of total attempts) seems - -> pretty low. - -> - -> {- I'm not sure which I like less, Holley's or Microsoft, but that's - -> {- another discussion. ;) - -> - -> Well, though I'm not fond of Microsoft in principle, I do - -> like their stuff on the Mac (ironic, but their Mac team is - -> actually good -- they hired most of them directly away from - -> Apple, after all). And despite jokes about MS cars (renewed - -> since there are some that will have Windows CE in them now), - -> Microsoft didn't leave me stuck in CO and NE paying over $1K - -> for towing and "repairs" by people who didn't know as much - -> as they claimed and really fixed absolutely nothing. In - -> fact, even though win95 is on the laptop I was using, the OS - -> kept running fine when the engine just simply stopped with - -> no warning (not even a sputter) at 80mph on the NE - -> interstate. And I can't say with 99% certainty that I will - -> never use another MS product on my own computers -- I - -> actually think MIE5 on the Mac is the best browser ever made - -> (literally). As you can guess, I _can_ say that about Holley. - -> - -> I really would be interested to hear any success stories - -> from people on this list with Holleys they installed on - -> their FSJs. (Not one your neighbor got already installed on - -> a used car with a custom Chevy 350.) - -> - -> ------------------------------------------------------------- - -> ------------------ - -> My brains are spilling out! - -> -- Marfalump - -> -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- - -> dan-at-black.org -------------- - -> ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1598 **************************