From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Mar 26 20:50:51 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, March 26 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1603 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: RE: TH400 Info fsj: mo' tstat fsj: RE TH400 Info fsj: RE: TH400 Info fsj: RE: TH400 Info Re: fsj: mo' tstat Re: fsj: SJ or FSJ not enough space and too old?! RE: fsj: batteries Re: fsj: mo' tstat fsj: Re: Update.. on ..Will the REAL proper thermostat for 80 J-10, fsj: Re: [FSJparts] 1982 AMC Colors. fsj: Re: Happy good Lady Day - VIRUS ALERT!!! FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:06:37 -0500 From: "Phillips, Scott" Subject: fsj: RE: TH400 Info JC Jones wrote: >Somebody had mentioned they were having a problem with D44's and a 401. >I think they need to learn to keep their foot out of the carburetor, a >D44 is more than strong enough to hold up to a 401 if skill is applied >rather than brute force. In response I had to reply that there are different driving styles definatly. But there are different times when you need to have the throttle. I'm gonna guess that you use your FSJ differently than I use mine. Nothing wrong with that, it just means that my needs are different and I've got to persue other alternatives. The point is that we all enjoy our FSJ's. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:10:12 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: mo' tstat Guys, go with what the factory said. I did. When I got my wag, it had a 160 tstat and sludge all over the place, I couldn't get the temp guage out of the blue. Now I have 190. No problems at all, even pulling a sailboat in 95 degrees. Now I don't run the AC a lot, but to run hot is good for efficiency and cleanliness of the engine. The engine builders I know like aluminum heads, cuz you can run them hotter....I think they carry the heat away from the combustion chamber better. New cars run on the hairy edge, as hot as possible without boiling. And it'll work better in the winter when you need the heater. - - Landon '89 GW Austin Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:08:27 -0800 (PST) From: john < john-at-wagoneers.com > Subject: fsj: tstats RJ, You might want to get an aftermarket temp gauge to monitor the temp better. If it runs too cold you risk sludge buildup if you can't get the moisture out of the engine, and I know y'all got humidity down there to deal with. :) If you run too hot you'll ping more. 160 might be ok, hard to day... a 360 tends to run pretty warm. 180 is about right as far as I can tell. 190 would be too warm by my guess. How's your oil look? are you getting sludge in your oil breather/cap at all? john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:09:15 -0600 From: "Phillips, Scott" Subject: fsj: RE TH400 Info Ken - thanks for the info! I appreciate it. I'd like to keep the TH400 but maybe I'll have to look for a 727 so that I can use the D300 I already have. Thanks again. Scott Ken Gaines wrote: I have a Dana 300 mounted to a TF727 in my FSJ-powered 1980 CJ7. While installing the combo, I ran into the clearance problem with my front driveshaft. I took care of the problem with a springover lift...completed this weekend, I might add...almost 6 inches on my CJ7. Another thing that a lot of CJ owners run into with a TF727 install is that the FSJ kickdown is not only too long to fit in the CJ frame, it is a pain in the neck to adjust. To remedy this problem, the Lokar kickdown cable is just what Dr. Jeep ordered. For ease of installation/adjustment and reliability, the Lokar cable has 'em all beat HANDS DOWN. The TF727 and Dana 300 combo is a really neat set-up. Contrary to popular belief, a Dana 300 transfer case will bolt DIRECTLY to an FSJ TF727. I know this because that is where my TF727 came from. There is NO offset bolt hole or stud on either the transmission adapter or the transfer case flange. There is what APPEARS to be an offset hole on the transmission adapter. This "offset hole" isn't even in the bolt circle for the 6 studs the Dana 300 transfer case uses. You can't overcome the front driveshaft clearance issue with "clocking" of the T/C. The reason is that if you clock it downward, the front yoke will be pointing almost DIRECTLY downward and it will be centered in relation to the front driveshaft. This will give you an undesirable compound driveshaft angle. It may also cause lack of lubrication issues in the T/C itself. If you try to clock the T/C upward by one hole, you will never be able to get the front driveshaft in the truck...the engine and bellhousing are definitely in the way. It is best to just leave it clocked the way it is originally and tackle the clearance issue with a lift of some kind. A CJ7 needs AT LEAST 4" of lift to pull it off. Because of the longer wheel base, an FSJ may be able to get away with a little less lift, but I wouldn't chance it. If the front passenger side suspension compresses too much, say goodbye to Mr. Transmission because it will eat the pan and mounting flange on the bottom of the TF727. I also installed a dropped bump stop brace in my CJ to prevent this from happening. You will not be able to get a double-cardan u-joint on the space between the transmission and the front of the t-case with a TF727/Dana 300 combo. Just put the "short end" (double cardan end) of the front driveshaft on the diff yoke. No problem there. If you have a LOT of lift, clearance won't be a problem, but rear driveshaft angles may be. I was able to tackle this during the process of my SOA by pointing the pinion yoke at the rear t-case yoke before welding the perches on the axle tube. I have about as straight a rear driveline angle as you can get. One more thing about a Dana 300 t-case...it uses strap-style retainers for the u-joints. There is no way to drill the yokes to accept a u-bolt, BUT, there is a way to fix it. Most FSJ'ers should have access to a BW 13-39 (QT) transfer case. If you have access to TWO QT cases, this is even better. The FRONT yoke of a BW 13-39 t/c will bolt directly onto a Dana 300 transfer case. Both Dana 300 output yokes are the same size/spline count. SOOOO...if you can get 2 FRONT output yokes from 2 QT cases, you can fix the problem of the strap-style u- joint retainers. U-bolts are, of course, the same as the QT case would use. I have the P/N's at home. I will post them tomorrow if anyone is interested. The last thing that is really nice about my TF727/Dana 300 combo is the fact that I did the twin-stick mod on the case. Now, I can control both axles independently of one another. I can also run in front-wheel-drive WITHOUT excessive torque wrap in the rear should I toss a driveshaft or roast a u- joint...or, God forbid, destroy another rear end. This was REALLY simple to do. If anyone else is interested in how I did it, let me know and I will email/post instructions and maybe even some pics if I can get a digital camera. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:11:13 -0800 From: "Phillips, Scott" Subject: fsj: RE: TH400 Info James, I was wrong. I totally forgot that CJ's did have the TH400 and 1339 combo. Others on the list (Sam) corrected me. Scott James Blair wrote: A: That's what I was wondering. I know I saw some that were pre '80 with auto trans. Never looked to see what trans they had (maybe 998? The AMC cars were running them and 727s) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:12:09 -0800 From: "Phillips, Scott" Subject: fsj: RE: TH400 Info Thanks John! Scott http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/FSJ-trans.html http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Transmissions/SJ-transmissions.html john ---- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:48:08 -0500 (EST) From: David Charles Gedraitis Subject: Re: fsj: mo' tstat Landon is absolutely right. I go to an engineering school, and we study such things-one of our yearly projects is to build an entire car from scratch. The best thing is to have your engine run nice and hot, as combustion is more efficient at higher temperatures. I won't bother to go into details, but We like to run our engines as hot as possible, while avoiding premature detonation. Aluminum IS far better than cast iron in regards to heat distribution. The ideal engine is All aluminum with cast iron sleeves in the cylinders (like the engines in the prowlers). ~dave On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Tesar Landon-r16884 wrote: > Guys, go with what the factory said. I did. When I got my wag, it had a 160 tstat and sludge all over the place, I couldn't get the temp guage out of the blue. Now I have 190. No problems at all, even pulling a sailboat in 95 degrees. Now I don't run the AC a lot, but to run hot is good for efficiency and cleanliness of the engine. The engine builders I know like aluminum heads, cuz you can run them hotter....I think they carry the heat away from the combustion chamber better. New cars run on the hairy edge, as hot as possible without boiling. > And it'll work better in the winter when you need the heater. > > - Landon > '89 GW > Austin > > Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:08:27 -0800 (PST) > From: john < john-at-wagoneers.com > > Subject: fsj: tstats > > RJ, > You might want to get an aftermarket temp gauge > to monitor the temp better. > > If it runs too cold you risk sludge buildup if you > can't get the moisture out of the engine, and I know > y'all got humidity down there to deal with. :) > > If you run too hot you'll ping more. > > 160 might be ok, hard to day... a 360 tends to > run pretty warm. 180 is about right as far as I > can tell. 190 would be too warm by my guess. > > How's your oil look? are you getting sludge in > your oil breather/cap at all? > > john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:27:10 -0800 (PST) From: Alexander Wall Subject: Re: fsj: SJ or FSJ not enough space and too old?! That particular tirade was FULLY warranted, considering someone was stupid enough to badmouth FSJs on an FSJ ENTHUSIAST mailing list. We are not all sharing our fanatacism for FSJs because it's all we can afford, but because all the other SUVs are wrong! Alexander Wall Spokane, WA '84 Wagoneer "Lucky" - --- Greg Loxtercamp wrote: > RJ, control yourself...don't go spouting off like you have the definitive > answer. Everyone has opinions and preferences. Don't go flaming someone just > for saying something. I, for one, agree with Jeff on many points. I had my > '79 wag and it was great for doing what it needed to do...get me around in the > MN winters and haul stuff (people, dirt, kayaks). But, you put four guys in it > and there's not much room left. Yes, it's a full size, but they are ~8" > narrower than other full sizes and much smaller than the Excursion, Surburban > and even the Yukon. The drivetrain is similar to that found on other vehicles > of it's class. > > When I got rid of the '79, I looked around for a newer model. The core of the > interior was updated in the late '70s for the Limited editions and really > didn't change much till the end (minus the dash, upper console and other minor > things). The outdated styling of the carpet and the seats prevented me from > purchasing a Jeep. I went with the Volvo AWD wagon instead...after all, it was > going to be my wifes car...and it's really nice. Of course, these are my > opions and my preferences... I also really love the exterior of the wag/cher > and am still a member of the mailing list because I like the correspondense...I > still have the Jeep sickness and speak proudly of them. Who knows, maybe > someday I may get another one...or maybe I'll get a Bronco, LandCruiser or a > Rover. > > So, ease up on the flaming and keep this list family oriented. BTW, this is > not the first time I asked this of you. > > Greg > fsj-less in Mpls. > > > --- "R.J. Baynum" wrote: > > Son, You just don't understand do you? > > The Grand wagoneer, or SJ, or we call FSJ, is by far, the roomiest, safest, > > reliable, toughest Jeep from the old School. the original SUV that today's > > SUV's > > are trying to copy and pawn off as it's reputation, which people fall for > > because > > of the size, then get wowed, by the luxury plastic fancy doo dads you don't > > really > > need.. > > They are cheap to rebuild, easy to work on, cost 75% less then a new SUV, and > > very > > classy in style. You see allot of the Grand wagoneers in movies today. they > > are > > popular not only for "Enthusiasts" ( And do NOT say it in a sneer, as if it's > > a > > dirty word!) We prefer as a Collector's > > Classic, the FSJ.. > > They are not owned by soccer moms.. only mini vans.. get it straight! > > People who love the great Outdoors and Drive off road -or trails own them, > > and for > > good reason.. Which came first in a family Jeep, on the Beach, When Surf > > fishing, > > Or down Very Muddy Forest service roads in the middle of nowhere , hundreds > > of > > miles from a single human being.. And gets you back with out a problem in > > anyway.. > > That is a FSJ! > > A FSJ can Carry more, and haul more at once, then any other SUV or other Jeep > > on > > the Muddy trail.. > > So next time , think before, and do yourself a really big favor ,..don't let > > your > > big mouth overload your tweety bird ass! > > Or you will get really plucked! > > > > R.J. > > 1FSJ-at-yahoogroups.com > > FSJ_SE-at-yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:12:22 -0600 > > From: "Garrison St.Clair" > > Subject: Re: Measurements... > > > > Jeff, > > > > An SJ is just too old and space-inefficient. > > > > My preference will be to buy a new vehicle. If I decide on something that I > > can't afford new, say a Gelandewagen, then I'll look at used but certainly > > not anything owned by an enthusiast. the correct used vehicle is always > > something bought by its original owner for the wrong reasons. For example a > > G-wagen owned by a typical soccer mom for three years might have 30-35000 > > easy miles and be priced about 40% of a new model. > > > > The last thing I want to happen is a breakdown in CENTAM due to something > > that was hard to spot or completely unforeseen. So old vehicles, enthusiast > > owned vehicles are not an option. > > > > Gunslinger > > > > Gunslinger's Fifth Law: "The ostrich that buries its head in the sand, gets > > its tail feathers plucked." > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jeff Hammes" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, 24 March, 2002 17:20 > > Subject: Re: [jeep] Measurements... > > > > > > > How 'bout a SJ? > > > http://www.grandwagoneers.com sells some SJ's in very good condition. (No > > > affiliation) > > > > > > Jeff Hammes > > > '79 Wagoneer (BW1339 in pieces) > > > Utica, NY > > > > > > > ...over the past year or so I've been contemplating replacing my YJ. > > > > besides being my daily driver around town, the Jeep is used for long > > > > distance trips in sometimes inhospitable places. So the goal is more > > > > interior space and the ability to lock the vehicle (no more softop). > > > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards. > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > ===== Alexander Wall Spokane, WA ================================================================================= "Where there's a will, there's a way." - Eliza Cook "Where there's a way, there's a construction crew disrupting traffic!" - Alex Wall ================================================================================= Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards. http://movies.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:26:50 -0800 From: Clark Novak Subject: RE: fsj: batteries Hey Landon, I got tired of the OEM-spec battery dying every single stinking winter ;) So I went to Costco and got a 34-series SUV/Truck battery. 1250 CCA, $49.95. Fits no problem and cranks like a champ! Clark Novak 87 GW/San Diego > Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:38:48 -0700 > From: Tesar Landon-r16884 > Subject: fsj: batteries > > Hi, > > need to replace my battery, as it seems to have sprung a leak out > of an inboard cell. This has really made a mess as the acid has > covered a good portion of the fender and leaked down onto and run > along the passenger frame rail. > > Anyway, what size is right for FSJ? It looks like a 24 series > will fit, but mine is a smaller 71? series. Anyone put in a 24 > series in late model GW/Truck? > > - - Landon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 21:03:57 -0600 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: Re: fsj: mo' tstat Okay after much thought, I thought, remember when I had the last engine's piston's crack and fall off, I thought was because pre detonation or poor metal in those Badger pistons? Could they have gotten fractures, condensation of water, because of the low thermostat, thus, cold weather to heating up breaking or chipping off the metal into the cylinders like it did smashing the spark plugs killing the # 2 & 7? Which why I had to get a new Engine.. I never did replace the thermostat.. Also it may be stuck open.. Anyway Today this is what I decided.. So I went to Auto Zone, and got the 5.99 195 degree, Lifetime warranty ( I bring it back , they give me a new one, free) Gasket 89 cents. and the Blue RTV gasket maker.. So.. I will go with what these rocket science engineers think, ..what do I know? And Who am I to say? If it goes into the red.. I will get back to you.. I know i don't really want to do it tonight, because it is colder then a well digger's Butt outside! But I have not the time any other day.. By the way I got the Steering box in with the help from my mechanic Friend Kevin, and the Pitman arm came of really easy.. the nut , was rather large, like about the size of 1 1/4 ", So we had to use a very large Adjustable wrench.. an just about step on it to tighten it to be sure with the 271 lock tight. I think it is really cool that the steering is really solid! Also, come to find out, that one side turned farther to the right, more then the left, So we had to adjust the tie rod.. I just never noticed it as much, just that I always thought it was just the quirk of the J-10, that I do a 2 point turn , in order to the left.. So He finally got the steering back to right in the middle, and even with that it still does not go out to the stops on both sides, The only thing stopping me is the steering box, it as far as it will go.. It turns and handles better I think. I replaced the hoses too.. Now also, the power steering pump is making a slight vibrating gravel noise, that you really just feel,. when you put your hand on it.. He says the power steering pump, will go here some time in the future, but not just yet, and for now it is still working. I looked into it and a new rebuilt pump with reservoir was $50. bucks at Auto zone, so I am not too worried about it. I also today got the Oil, all the Differentials, transfer case, drive line U -Joints, air filter , Lubed and changed And for the third time, Trying to see why the people at Express Oil lube, after they changed the Tranny filter, can not fix the tranny pan gasket leaking.. well today, I found out why , it was over tighten, with the orange RTV spread out to the side in huge gobs, broken cork gasket in three places.. Also the pan was apparently been beaten on with a screwdriver or some object, and the pan is now bent out , or "warped" so it will not seal right anyway.. So I ahd to ask them to order a new pan from the dealer ship, for them to put it on.. I should make them pay for it.. Although, i know already , I am pretty sure my Shifter seal is leaking but that is higher, and not much of a big deal and I do keep a eye on that. which leads me to another question.. Is there a access plate , So I can get to it and replace that tranny linkage seal? Or do I have to do it the hard way? I hope I don't have to take out the tranny.. So anyway.. So that part is ready for Ouray.. R.J. J-10 Honcho Huntsville AL. Tesar Landon-r16884 wrote: > Guys, go with what the factory said. I did. When I got my wag, it had a 160 tstat and sludge all over the place, I couldn't get the temp guage out of the blue. Now I have 190. No problems at all, even pulling a sailboat in 95 degrees. Now I don't run the AC a lot, but to run hot is good for efficiency and cleanliness of the engine. The engine builders I know like aluminum heads, cuz you can run them hotter....I think they carry the heat away from the combustion chamber better. New cars run on the hairy edge, as hot as possible without boiling. > And it'll work better in the winter when you need the heater. > > - Landon > '89 GW > Austin > > Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:08:27 -0800 (PST) > From: john < john-at-wagoneers.com > > Subject: fsj: tstats > > RJ, > You might want to get an aftermarket temp gauge > to monitor the temp better. > > If it runs too cold you risk sludge buildup if you > can't get the moisture out of the engine, and I know > y'all got humidity down there to deal with. :) > > If you run too hot you'll ping more. > > 160 might be ok, hard to day... a 360 tends to > run pretty warm. 180 is about right as far as I > can tell. 190 would be too warm by my guess. > > How's your oil look? are you getting sludge in > your oil breather/cap at all? > > john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 21:23:44 -0600 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: fsj: Re: Update.. on ..Will the REAL proper thermostat for 80 J-10, Here's the really cool thing about Alabama .. There is no emissions here at all! you can run open pipes if you want to.. However, the muffler shops are not allowed to take off the already installed cats.. My Air pump is out, so I need to take it off, or find a new one.. I think i should take it off and get rid of all the California emissions stuff.. But am afraid to mess it up or there will be no going back if something goes wrong, say something like excessive pinging or something like that.. I had a guy who offered to do it, for a hundred bucks.. and he said, when the the cat gets clogged, then you just take it off punch it out ( the inside), and put it back on Like it was a simple every day thing.. R.J. J-10 Honcho Huntsville AL. Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:14:58 EST From: Hummer502-at-aol.com Subject: Re: Update.. on ..Will the REAL proper thermostat for 80 J-10, PLE... I just went for Inspection here in Charlotte, NC and here are my results CO% 0.0 CO2 % 14.5 Hydrocarbons 025 and i'm running a 185 t-stat and 0.060 gap plugs, stock ignition coil, rotor, cap, wires. - - just food for thought Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:59:24 -0800 From: john meister Subject: fsj: Re: [FSJparts] 1982 AMC Colors. I've got the 1980, 1981 and 1983 color charts, but not the 1982. year - description - code 1980 - Cardinal Red - 0P 1981 - Oriental Red - 1M 1981 - Vintage Red, Met. - 1J 1983 - Sebring Red - 3B hope this helps. john > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, piakp wrote: > >> -->Anyone know what color AMC painted J20's? I have a red one, but >> -->would like to know that exact color so I can paint it this summer. >> -->Thanks!! - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:35:48 -0800 From: john meister Subject: fsj: Re: Happy good Lady Day - VIRUS ALERT!!! I9m not 100% certain, but it looks like Scotty has a virus... Hopefully I9m not too late.... Pass the word along NOT to open attachments from KILLER32, especially if it has a goofy subject like the one above. Scotty does send out sales info from time to time, but usually no attachments, just links and info. In my mac 3attachments2 window I saw a file with the extension .bat when I went to Linux and examined the files I found a jpg with a viper image and an executable that had all the typical virus stuff in it... kernel32.dll and so on. Of course I didn9t test it on a PC. I guarantee that it isn9t a sound file attached, even though the listing below in PINE showed it as an X-WAV, it9s a windows executable program with the typical virus stuff you see. On 3/26/02 4:04 PM, "killer32" wrote: From: killer32 > Parts/attachments: > 1 ~4 lines Text > 2 OK 88 KB Audio > 3 Shown 0 lines Text > 4 6 KB Application > ---------------------------------------- > [Part 1, Text/HTML 4 lines] > [Cannot display this part. Press "V" then "S" to save in a file] > [Part 2, Audio/X-WAV 117KB] > [Not Shown. Use the "V" command to view or save this part] > [Part 4, Application/OCTET-STREAM (Name: "vipr") 8KB] > [Cannot display this part. Press "V" then "S" to save in a file] > > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1603 **************************