From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Apr 22 08:58:55 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, April 22 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1627 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: FSJ groupings... Re: fsj: Re: 1981 wagoneer, advice fsj: Installing a 4.0L in an FSJ update Re: fsj: FSJ groupings... Re: fsj: Re: 71 wagoneer fsj: Anybody Bored? fsj: FW: DIFFLOCK 16 fsj: FSJ spotting and Big trucks on TV fsj: and who else would it be? :) fsj: Re: [WJ-Grand] and who else would it be? :) FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 01:24:56 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: FSJ groupings... In a message dated 4/20/02 9:54:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net writes: >71 to 73 are another group... AMC v8's, closed knuckle front axle, no disc. >5 lug. these are the least desirable bunch, sorry Ben... LOL. To tell you the truth, I used to feel the same way. IMO, the '73's have the worst traits of both Kaiser and AMC rigs. I can't say I'd prefer a '71 or '72 to a '78, but it's about a wash for me. In '71 the 258 was an option, and most people wouldn't hold the 360 against a FSJ. The 304 is another story altogether. The Dana 30 front axle is plenty stout for my needs and the closed knuckles can be rebuilt with nothing fancier than a .5" drive ratchet and a fisherman's spring-scale. The turning radius is not stellar, but an open knuckle axle wouldn't help me get into those "compact car" parking places anyway. The 5 lug wheels are a bonus for me. I can swap wheels/tires back and forth between the Wagoneer and the Bronco anytime it suits me. The drum brakes would be a non-issue if I weren't too lazy to put new self-adjusters in the front. But, I don't mind tightening them a few clicks every 10 days or so. It's not like I'm ever gonna have bad weather for the 90 seconds I'm on my back in the driveway : ) The only time I notice a lack of stopping power with my drum brakes is when I drive like a moron. I try not to do that anyway, so if it kills me... good riddance of bad rubbish. That said, anybody got a mint '78 1-ton J-truck just laying around gathering dust? (or mold, depending on where you live) You know what the worst problem is with a '71 Wagoneer? Trying to find a gas cap that fits : ) Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 '88 Bronco ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 12:05:11 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 1981 wagoneer, advice A: It's best to be mechanically inclined to own one of these, or have someone around who is. Sometimes little nitpicky things go wrong that can stump you, but you can always ask us here on the list and we'll help the best we can. There are some (like John and myself) that are trying to cut the thirstiness of these beasts by installing a more modern drivetrain. From: john meister Subject: fsj: Re: 1981 wagoneer, advice hard to say what it's worth without seeing it. 100,000 miles is low mileage for an '81. Transmissions seem to go out on those things around that time. They're nice rigs, but they'll always have something that will need fixing. Basically reliable though, they'll get you home. :) They're thirsty too. 10 to 12 mpg, maybe 13 or so if you're lucky. The back windows can be a real pain. However, they ride great and will go just about anywhere. :) john On 4/19/02 11:23 AM, "lah" wrote: > Dear John, > I saw your 1981 jeep on a jeep website, > I am lookig at buying a 1981 exactly like yours, it has 100,000 miles on it. > I am a women so I dont know much about jeeps!! I am trying to find someone to > look at it. but first the guy I feel is asking way to much ,he wants 2500. I > thought maybe 1,000. I live in nc mountains and need something heavy. > Any way I hope you can give me some advice. > Sincerely, > Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 12:24:57 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: Installing a 4.0L in an FSJ update A: It's best to be mechanically inclined to do one of these, or have someone around who is. Sometimes little nitpicky things go wrong that can stump you, but you can always ask us here on the list and we'll help the best we can. There are some (like John Meister and myself) that are trying to cut the thirstiness of these beasts by installing a more modern drivetrain with EFI. I finally got to spend part of yesterday on my J10 with 4.0L conversion (soon to be 4.6L stroker! I need to get the truck running with a known good motor first so I can troubleshoot my wiring prowess) I wasn't sure I was going to be able to as I was sick with flu and had a fever on friday so bad I couldn't go to work. A couple pointers for John and others: The left motor mount has a hole that needs redrilling (or drilling and threading in your case) The older XJs ('87 to '90) have a knock sensor located where one of the motor mount bolts is supposed to go (not sure which thread yet, but it's bigger than the 3/8" NC the FSJs use) I'm just going to drill the hole in the mount bracket open and put in a larger bolt, but yours has no knock sensor, and sometime after '93 they stopped drilling the boss the bolt is supposed to go into, so drilling it while the motor is out would be a good thing to do. I don't suggest using the XJ mounts in an FSJ. I saw lots of them busted in XJs and I only tore up the rubber pads in Elmo pulling the 5 ton trailer I had up a long hill in low range with 2.72 gears and 31" tires. I switched to Energy Suspension and except a little extra vibration till they broke in, they were fine. The XJ oil filter inversion will be in a great place for changing and less likely to be knocked off than the original (not too likely to happen but if the motor mount breaks, the motor lifts till you let go of the gas and it comes down with a thud on the frame. DAMHIK! ) The throttle cable from the XJ appears that it's going to be just right, but the stock brake booster is in the way. It may even be in the way with the 2" body lift, so I am temporarily going to slip an XJ booster in it's place, until I can get the Hydroboost rebuild kit (I won't be hauling anything with the XJ 5 speed I'm using temporarily either). I'll be running an AMC Eagle serpentine belt waterpump pulley on a new TJ waterpump (along with the clutch fan from the Eagle as I already have it) and removing the offset XJ fan as it would hit my battery box. My rad is a new V8 CJ 3 row unit that will be going in as soon as the wiring issues are out of the way (I'm going to cut the plug off an old ignition box and retrofit it that way). The hole where the BBD computer harness came through will be where I wire the Renix computer. I'm going to use a Delco alternator as they are cheap and easy to come by in a pinch (I'll put on the chrome 200 amp one I have in my collection) The AC compressor will become my onboard air (I debated drilling my Killer32 nerfs for air fittings, but they aren't boiler tested! ) The old bumpers are off, getting ready to put my new ones on, and it appears I will need a different winch (I goofed when I ordered and thought mine was bottom mounted. It's actually front mounted) My old rear bumper is going by UPS to N. Carolina (it would have gone friday, but I was so dizzy I could hardly stand up let alone drive!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 12:54:06 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: FSJ groupings... A: Group 1: 327 is NOT a Chev motor (to unconfuse people, it is really a Nash motor and John has pics of one on his site and I have a '66 Wag with 327 and uncommonly found TH400 about to temporarily take up residence in my son's backyard till someone buys it, along with the '78ish J10 with front end damage. He was thinking about putting the 360 4 speed out of that into an XJ till I told him it would pass everything but the gas station and would twist the body in half!) Group 2: I wouldn't mind having a Buick V8 powered FSJ (sorry John) I got great gas mileage out of my '73 Le Sabre after I tweaked the Rochester 4 bbl for a couple days. Group 3: they are not all automatics. In fact many were standards (I know what you meant to say was all AMC, but I thought I'd clarify that! ) Group 4: Most models have too many of the fancy things that aren't needed like power windows. (I don't mind power locks, as long as they aren't the self locking version!) This is my favorite group too, but now we are morphing them into a new group! Group 5: OD automatic, EFI, onboard air, big tires with low gears, fulltime 4x4 capable, and still get -at-20 mpg for less than $30,000 and be reasonably reliable. (this is what Chrysler Jeep should have advanced FSJs into!) Think of all the tech know-how that went into the upcoming Moab edition Wrangler put into a rig like ours? I think when Chrysler bought Jeep, they thought they could just slip the technology into their trucks and lay the Jeep name down, but they were probably very surprised at the SUV revolution that put one in every other garage. From: john meister Subject: fsj: FSJ groupings... On 4/19/02 7:25 PM, "fsj-digest" wrote: > - -> Jeep similarities > - -> can be divided into 3 groups: pre-1974, 1974 to 1983, and > - -> 1984 to 1991 There is the '63 to '70 vintage, and 2 groups within that realm, because you have the 6 cylinders and the 327's/ and then the 350 buick powered ones. - all closed knuckle, wide turning radius, no disc brakes 5 lug - classic FSJ for certain. my first was a '67 with the 327... I wouldn't go out of my way for another of this vintage... :) 71 to 73 are another group... AMC v8's, closed knuckle front axle, no disc. 5 lug. these are the least desirable bunch, sorry Ben... 74 to 79 is all AMC/TH400/QT disc, 6 lug - many prefer this grouping. not a bad vintage to have... 80 and up, AMC v8, torqueflite/NP/6 lug... most desirable... as far as I'm concerned... mainly because of the "fuel" economy modes, lighter, New process xfr cases, etc... john ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 13:05:56 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 71 wagoneer A: You have to watch these things closely, or your "rules" will come back and bite-ya! (happens to me often enough!) '84-'88 had manual windows as an option delete. Not sure about power door locks, but power mirrors were (I added them to my '84 J10) '74-'78 was 1/2 points and 1/2 Presto(no)lite. '78 up was all Motorcraft ignition including the Chrysler years AFAIK. Just a different box from the earlier ones (I have a couple of those on my for sale list) The 327 and Kaiser 6 cyl were the first motors in FSJs, then Buick because AMC couldn't supply them fast enough (and people wanted "more power! unh unh unh"), and they were going through tooling changes to make the Gen 3 motors. Then AMC bought out Jeep and bumped the GM powerplants altogether. From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: 71 wagoneer I've had a good laugh over this thread : ) There are so many good reasons for identifying different general catagories of FSJs, I should have known better than to try. Many of you brought up things that I hadn't considered. Since I didn't explain myself at all and everyone is sharing... I looked at this from an otherwise ignorant Kaiser-era perspective: '84 -'91, essentially Chrysler FSJs - no manual nothin' on Wags '74 - '83, disc brakes, slightly more driver leg room in Wagoneers, Dana 44 front axle, 6-bolt wheels, a real fuse panel, removable rear seat, Motorcraft ignition, etc. '73 and earlier, until the re-designed interior and Quadra-trac in '73, these are all basically Kaiser rigs. I lump '73 in with them even though it's only real similarity is the grill and the front axle. Alot of people like to point out the AMC motors in '71, but Kaiser used so many different motors that the AMC variety doesn't really stand out. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 16:25:26 -0600 From: "JC Jones" Subject: fsj: Anybody Bored? Just in case any of you are just wondering what to do next: http://www.jtruck.net/misc/games/ JC Jones http://www.jtruck.net http://www.wagoneer.net 1979 Jeep J-10 "Max" 1984 Grand Wagoneer "Eeyore" 1978 MB 300D "Fritz" 1986 Jeep XJ Cherokee "Junior" * * * * * =================== "They that can give up * * * * =================== essential liberty to * * * * * =================== obtain a little ============================= temporary safety ============================= deserve neither ============================= liberty nor safety." ============================= -Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 15:25:09 -0700 From: john meister Subject: fsj: FW: DIFFLOCK 16 they have an article on tent trailers... http://www.difflock.com/buyersguide/newproducts/tentrax/index.shtml DIFFLOCK 16 Online Now! http://www.difflock.com - ------ End of Forwarded Message - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com often via PINE on Linux ** (prefer plain text emails please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 16:59:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: FSJ spotting and Big trucks on TV Last night on my way home from dropping my son off in Kent, WA, I passed a couple driving a Red/Orange '75ish Cherokee 2 dr (It had the Big emblems on the side and front bumperettes on 3 piece bumpers on the front) on the I-5 right by I-405 (she was driving, he was sleeping) Maybe someone here? Nice rig anyways! (I was the one in the White Comanche that waved thumbs up) It was the end of a busy but productive day (unlike today which sees me going to a meeting at work in an hour) but I couldn't reach my ifsja.org sign I keep in the truck (I took it down to put up my own upcoming site http://virtualjeep.com which is linked to http://www.ifsja.org ) Anyway, at 5:00PM PST (a couple minutes) the top ten monster trucks will be coming on of all places the Travel channel! ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 MJ http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ Black Jack's before pic: http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/FESTS/Snohomish-April2-2000/PIC00004.JPG ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 21:09:36 -0700 From: john meister Subject: fsj: and who else would it be? :) On 4/21/02 8:53 PM, "Adam Townsend" wrote: > Ahhhh, I thought it was the same John Meister. who else would it be? ;) You heard about the demise of the little wagoneer, right? Went down to an auction and picked up this '99 WJ, theft recovery... it's showing about 47,000 miles on the odometer, but it's got closer to 60,000 miles on it. I've been working my way through all the normal problems. Rear end being the biggest issue so far. Need to replace the computers so I have more than one key for it though... Otherwise it's doing fine. My wife has claimed it as hers. SuperDawg (my '83 J10 Stepside) is finally getting worked on again. Hopefully he'll be done in another month or so. He's getting a '96 XJ 4.0L HO motor, aisin warner 4speed auto, and an NP-219 (Quadratrac). We're painting him Woodland Brown (WJ color). Need to find the color code for it. :) BTW, almost got the EZlocker in my son's '77 Cherokee today, but he broke one of the bolts holding the ring gear in... tried to find a bolt at Home Depot but no luck... tried to call jim blair but he wasn't home... I know he's got the parts laying around. So my son will have to chase down the bolt at Napa tomorrow. > I am a member of the three FSJ lists as well. (lurk mode now) I'm in transmit mode only on a few of the FSJ lists... only one I even read is the fsj list on digest.net. I was trying to get a WJ list going on digest.net but this one on Yahoo seems to be working ok. If yahoo ever messes up I'll start one on digest.net to match up with the fsj, xj and diesel-benz lists. :) I keep the digests for the FSJ and XJ on my server for hysterical, er, historical reference... To think all this started with an FSJ list in 1995, which sure beat "CC'ing" all the "list" members at one time via Eudora. :) So, are you planning on making it to Ouray this August? ;) > Makes me feel happy knowing there are people like John on this list as well. thanx. btw, what picture were they referring to before? Or do I want to know? ;) ttyl, john > Adman > try this: > http://www.wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/codes.html > > On 4/21/02 7:25 PM, "JAY COLLINS" wrote: > >> I tried to get the error code by turning the key on and off as John >> suggested, >> but wasn't successful. I may try again in the morning. Hopefully this is >> something minor that is still under warranty. Thanks for your input and I'll >> let you know what I find out. >> >> Cynthia >> > ************************************************************************** > '79 Chero 'S' "Chief Outamiway" {RIP} 8" Lift, SOA, Buggy Springs > '82 Chero "Moby" Worked 360, 4" Skyjacker, Detroits F&R > '97 TJ "Jack" 2" Lift, BFGs > '00 WJ "Casper" > Sydney, Australia > ***************** > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com often via PINE on Linux ** (prefer plain text emails please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 22:43:53 -0700 From: john meister Subject: fsj: Re: [WJ-Grand] and who else would it be? :) On 4/21/02 10:22 PM, "Adam Townsend" wrote: > No, I hadn't heard about the little Wag. I'd been keeping up to date with the > adventures of SuperDawg though. yeah, the wife was coming up the hill and a kid in a Saab broadsided her, spun her around... destroyed the OME rear springs, folded the rock sliderz under the jeep, ripped the driveshaft out and sprung the doors on the pass side, bent the rear rim too... flattened the BFG AT... wife is still dealing with a sore neck from it... but on the bright side we ended up with the '99 WJ. Trying to talk her into trading it in for a late model XJ... but she won't hear any of it. :) So we're stuck with payments for a while. > I'm actually selling my '82 Chero 'Moby' cause I can't justify paying rego and > insurance on it to drive it a few times a year. understand, been down that road a few times. :) sold Old Blue in '98, but I came back to another FSJ... funny how it works, I bounce between XJ's, SJ's and Diesel Benz... :) I'm driving an '83 Ford Ranger with a Mazda 2.2L Diesel in it right now... may keep it after SuperDawg is done if fuel prices keep going up... only issue then is the insurance... oh well... will have to do the math to see if 30mpg over 17mpg justifies the extra insurance. :) > It's sad, but my partner said we can go to town on the TJ now so I've still > got something to build. And I still have the rolling chasis and running gear > from the 79 Chero I rolled, awaiting transplant into a suitable flatfender. > :-) why not build up a CJ10 with a nice Diesel... :) then you can ship it here to me. :) > I can't make it to Ouray unfortunately. I was booked to go but with the > collapse of Ansett over here I lost about 300000 frequent flyer points. :-( I'm looking forward to the trip... already booked the hotel... :) john > > Talk soon > Adman > > > > On Monday, 22 April 2002 2:09 PM, john meister wrote: > > On 4/21/02 8:53 PM, "Adam Townsend" wrote: > >> Ahhhh, I thought it was the same John Meister. > > who else would it be? ;) > > ************************************************************************** > '79 Chero 'S' "Chief Outamiway" {RIP} 8" Lift, SOA, Buggy Springs > '82 Chero "Moby" Worked 360, 4" Skyjacker, Detroits F&R > '97 TJ "Jack" 2" Lift, BFGs > '00 WJ "Casper" > Sydney, Australia > ***************** > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com often via PINE on Linux ** (prefer plain text emails please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1627 **************************