From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Jul 9 08:27:24 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, July 8 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1684 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: quadratrac fsj: Re: need help fsj: a pair of FSJs parts or together... Washington State fsj: Re: quadratrac and (different subject:) OX lockers fsj: need a favor... fsj: gearing for a J10... Re: [fsj: Ouray nears...] FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 11:50:14 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: quadratrac Quadratrac is Jeep's name for a full time system. The name and function lives on since '73... it's involved three (or four) transfer cases: Borg Warner 1339, New Process 219 and New Process 247 (or is it 249? ;). I've had at least one of each kind. The NP219 was the best from a driving standpoint. The BW has the reputation as the strongest. The Latest version in the '99 and up WJ's has the Gerotor technology. The original Quadratrac came out in '73 and was made by Borg Warner. Jeep switched transmissions, xfr cases and front axles in '80 and the Quadratrac was made by New Process and designated the NP219. They only made it until '82. It's a better full time system then the Borg Warner unit in my opinion. However I don't have a 401 V8 built to the hilt either and my reasons for saying it's better is as follows: 1) it doesn't bind in turns 2) it weighs less 3) it doesn't require vacuum to operate 4) it doesn't require special fluid Jeep reintroduced the Quadratrac with the ZJ a few years before the WJ ('99) was introduced. My '99 WJ has Quadratrac II, an NV(or is it NP?) 247. It's a full time unit with low range, like the older Borg Warner version it does bind a bit in tight turns, or so I've heard, I don't notice it. :) It does require special fluid... but mine also has the Gerotor lock up feature... basically a "trash" lock setup with a pump. So, saying that the '80-82 or later model ZJs or the new WJs don't have Quadratrac is like saying that anything newer then 1979 isn't a Full Size Jeep because it doesn't have a Turbo 400 AT. :) Full time is full time... and has a low range... and an "emergency" lock feature... all wheel drive has no low range, and probably also lacks the lock up (part time mode if you will.) The Selectrac system came out in '83 and offers full time, low range and 2 wheel drive! The later Selectrac, '87 and up, using the NP242 (same as the Hummer) also permitted a "lockup" mode or part time mode. The early NP229(8)s did NOT have a 4wd HIGH lockup mode, but did lock up in low range. (lock up means 50/50 split of power front to rear). My favorite xfr cases are: NP242 and NP219. john At 11:37 AM 7/7/2002 -0400, fsj-digest wrote: >Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 17:58:26 -0500 >From: "R.J. Baynum" >Subject: Re: fsj: Re: vacuum,paint,heat riser >I don't think the 81 is a quadra trac, at least not a borg warner.. >they stop production of those in 79.. >R.J. > > A: My '81 is full time quadratrac so no problem. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 16:37:15 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: need help At 10:34 PM 7/7/2002 +0000, Richard Thompson wrote: > John: > Was surfing the net and came across your web site: Wagoneers.com >and noticed that you are a born again Christian, like me , and wondered >if you could possibly help me. I,m trying to buy a Wagoneer in Tuscon, AZ >and live in St. Paul,MN. I,m wondering if you personally could help me or >know someone in the area who would be willing to help me with the >logistics of buying it. > Richard Thompson "Richard Thompson" We're about equal distance from it... :) I'm up in the Seattle area... but I'll post this to the FSJ lists and see if anyone is closer, there area a few folks in AZ, not sure where, but they'll be in touch if they can help. :) good luck, john meister snohomish, washington - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 16:49:15 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: a pair of FSJs parts or together... Washington State '79 Golden Eagle WT Cherokee 360/th400/QT - fair - RUNS some title issues to deal with '78 Wagoneer Limited NO ENGINE/th400/QT - rough has title, but NO TAILGATE email: fcwause-at-yahoo.com Gary is located in Maltby, between Woodinville and Snohomish, Washington. I'll have some pictures later if you're interested... I'll email them to Gary later... in a day or two... john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 09:18:00 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: quadratrac and (different subject:) OX lockers >-> reasons for saying it's better is as follows: >-> 1) it doesn't bind in turns >-> 2) it weighs less >-> 3) it doesn't require vacuum to operate >-> 4) it doesn't require special fluid > >The BW 1339 case does not bind in turns unless E-Drive is activated, or >the fluid is filthy dirty and needs to be changed. It is a fairly easy >modification to convert the vacuum E-Drive to be cable operated instead. That's good to know... They have a cable operated Locker too, OX. I like a locker on a trail and in serious slippery goo... but hate them on the street... The only problem I see with the OX is it doesn't appear available for a Model 20. However, I have a Dana 44 rear axle in my J10 trailer... the cab is gone... The axles in the '75 J10 have 4.10 gears... my '83 J10 has 3.31's... I'm not sure what to do... Since SuperDawg won't be ready for Ouray (means I have to drive the wife's '99 WJ, such a shame having to travel in those comfy leather seats getting 20mpg... tsk, tsk... what a shame, what a shame... ;) I may do something in the axle dept... >-> The Selectrac system came out in '83 and offers full time, low range >To my knowledge the NP229 (NP228 in 1986) was used all the way through >91 in FSJ's and the NP242 was never offered. The only difference AGREED, no 242 ever offered... the NP229/228 were the xfr case for the SJ through the end... But the context of my message was QT in general, up to and including the latest WJ model... but thanks for clarifying that... this is often a confusing subject. :) >between the NP228 and NP229 is that the NP229 has a viscous coupler and >the NP228 only has an open differential in 4Hi. The NP229 is more >expensive to repair (if the viscous coupling fails), but gives far >superior traction and handling on slick surfaces. I still prefer the 219 over the 229/228... >-> My favorite xfr cases are: NP242 and NP219. >I prefer the BW1339 Quadratrac myself for several reasons. Not the >least of which is the front *and* rear offset axles, this gives you a >clear high clearance path under the drivers side of the vehicle - if you >clear the front differential, you are most likely also going to clear >the rear too. Another reason is the strength. The other primary reason >I prefer the BW1339 is because it was mated to the longer lasting, >easier/cheaper to modify/build, and overall stronger TH400 automatic >transmission. These are EXCELLENT reasons... However I've had equally bad luck with TH400s in FSJs as I have TF727s. ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:52:36 -0400 (EDT) From: David Charles Gedraitis Subject: fsj: need a favor... This isn't Jeep related... Sorry about this, but seeing as most of you are on the far coast (or closer to it than me), I figured I'd ask here first... I have the chance to buy on Ebay about a dozen different parts at once, all of which I badly need, for a very cheap price. Ths issue is they must be picked up (its one of the conditions of the sale) and not only are they large parts (an 8 foot long hood for one thing), the seller does not have them all listed. That doesnt bother me, as I really need the hood, and as far as I'm concerned, the rest is a bonus, but they are in the Toluca Lake North Hollywood area (wherever that is). And I have no way to get out there, or to get the seller to ship them to me here in mass. Can anyone possibly pick them up and ship them to me? Not only will you earn my eternal gratitude, but I'll also give you money! lots of it! (really), plus gas and shipping. Any takers? obviously, respond only to me, ~dave ps by lots of money, I mean lots in my book, which is roughly around 300, plus exspenses... once agai sorry to bother all of you with the non-jeep related info... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 10:13:15 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: gearing for a J10... Since SuperDawg ain't gonna make it to Ouray and he's at a point in the process where changing axles would make sense. I'm trying to decide if I should stay with the 3.31's I have now or go to something else. I've got the axles from a '75 J10 with 4.10 gears. SuperDawg will have a 4.0L HO engine with the Aisin Warner 4 speed automatic sporting a .75 final gear overdrive... I'm running 235's right now, but have a set of 31's available... It looks like SuperDawg's primary role will be commuting, with maybe a few runs around 200 miles or so, say to Portland or up to BC. The 3.31's seem like ok gears, but if I swap in the Dana 44 rear axle with 4.10's, I'll need to change the front axle ratio as well. I think that 4.10s would probably be too low, but would help acceleration and movement in traffic, and with the overdrive probably not hurt highway mileage... Considering that I'll be moving an FSJ with an XJ engine I'm thinking that might be ok... if it won't hurt in town economy. Thoughts? Problem is I don't know if the '75 D44 pass side offset R&P will work on the '83 driv side offset D44. Also, I don't know if 4.10s will hurt or help fuel economy in mixed driving. Big unknown. I know in my XJ running 30x9.5s my mileage dropped with 4.10s, of course the overall final ratio was 3% lower then "stock". The options appear to be: 1) buy a 3.31 R&P set for the rear '75 D44 and swap out the M20 2) swap 4.10s into the '83 from the '75, if the front D44 R&P will work (setup for front diff only) 3) buy new R&P fore and aft for the D44s, say 3.73 The OX locker looks pretty good, although I'd be more interested in the Electric lockup True Trac. I'd like to have limited slip on the street and the ability to lock the axles on the trail or in snow... The OX locker or ARBs appear to only offer open or locked, while the True Trac locker, elocker?, would do it all... but aren't available right now that I know of. So, bottom line: 3.31's, 3.73's or 4.10s? Or something else? I'd like a Dana 44 in the rear, but at this point my Model 20 is ok and in place so leaving it alone isn't a problem, except that I'm limited to "locker" selection... hmmm... maybe the OX locker on the D44 in the front would be sufficient for trail use and just leave the rear end open or with a true trac for the model20, I think they are available... what to do, what to do... ;) If SuperDawg would have been done last year these thoughts wouldn't have had a chance... the pandora's box is open now... rofl... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 15:19:10 -0600 From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Ouray nears...] john wrote: > I'm going to visit briefly with SuperDawg tomorrow... 5 weeks > to Ouray... not sure if we're going to make it in time... :( Wow... I hope you can pull it off... I fear this will be the case for a few people. I'm still working on my axle swap and trying to fight a hoarde of gremlins (not the 4-wheeled AMC kind, the other AMC kind :)) and get a bunch of other 'goodies' installed. I have a backup truck that'll do fine in a pinch but BOY will I be majorly bummed if I can't bring TC after all these years of build-up. I will either get the axles installed by Wed nite this week or I'm going to enter into a major panic. On top of this we're also putting the finishing details on planning. There is still plenty of work to do before August. FWIW, we're more interested in making sure FSJ -owners- arrive in Ouray in August, than -what- they arrive in. We'd rather see nothing but FSJ's on the streets and trails, but we know these trucks and their owners all too well. :) Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1684 **************************