From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Jul 9 21:04:07 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, July 9 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1686 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: D44's and OX lockers fsj: RE: Ouray or Bust... (at least I'll be in a Jeep... ;) RE: [fsj: Ouray nears...] RE: [fsj: gearing for a J10...] RE: [fsj: gearing for a J10...] Re: [fsj: gearing for a J10...] fsj: RE: WT axles in a NT GW? Re: [fsj: Re: quadratrac and (different subject:) OX lockers] Re: fsj: Re: quadratrac Re: fsj: gearing for a J10... Re: [fsj: Ouray nears...] fsj: website Re: [RE: [fsj: Ouray nears...]] FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 15:55:24 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: D44's and OX lockers At 03:49 PM 7/8/2002 -0600, Michael Shimniok wrote: >john wrote: > > >As far as I know, they make them for REAR D44 in 4.10 and lower > If you can get to 4.10's or 3.73's without spending $1500 like I >did, I say go for it esp with the OD tranny. Just checked with Randy's Ring & Pinion... the D44 from the '75 J10 and the '83 J10, if they're both the same type of pinion, will work. Labor is estimated at $400 to swap 'em. :) So that means SuperDawg can get a Dana 44 with 4.10's in the rear for a simple axle swap, and front 4.10's for the cost of R&P swap. Not sure if Curtis does R&P setup or not... Can't imagine that he couldn't... Or if he's like me, he might not. I don't do carbs, automatics or R&P... to much precision work for my simple brain... ;) > > A full time locker is NOT a good thing. A tree gave it's life proving > > that to me... ;) >Heh. Good to know. I am pretty sure I made the right choice. One of the >main objectives for putting WT axles under my narrow track was to gain back >stock turning radius despite 33x12.50's... that wouldn't be possible with an >auto locker. Lockers can be cool... but they do have their place... in the rear on trails is about it... ;) I've watched a few bobtail pilots get out and unlock their hubs on tight trails to make the turns... seems like a big hassle... > > yeah, I know, but Mr. Murphy is visiting Centralia, Washington these > > days... some low life ran off with my catalytic converter and mufller > > from the '96 XJ Saturday... just sitting outside the garage at my > > friend's house in the alley... :( > >Ugh, that sucks. :( Yeah, we'd just figured out it was probably a good unit and solved the problem of locating the second O2 sensor... Now we have to spend more money and research what'll work... :( john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:19:14 -0600 From: "JC Jones" Subject: fsj: RE: Ouray or Bust... (at least I'll be in a Jeep... ;) - -> SuperDawg would have been a nice ride I'm sure... but in a - -> way I'm content with coming in the Grand Cherokee... it's a - -> sweet highway machine that does well off-road... Quadradrive - -> is a nice system... and at 19 to 20mpg I'll be smiling when - -> we stop for fuel... ;) Hey, I can smile at the gas station too - my J-10 only has a 12 gallon tank. When I'll stop smiling is when I log all the gas receipts and realize that I had to stop ever 72 miles to fill up. ;) JC Jones http://www.jtruck.net http://www.wagoneer.net 1979 Jeep J-10 "Max" 1987 Grand Wagoneer 1978 MB 300D "Fritz" 1986 Jeep XJ Cherokee "Junior" * * * * * =================== "They that can give up * * * * =================== essential liberty to * * * * * =================== obtain a little ============================= temporary safety ============================= deserve neither ============================= liberty nor safety." ============================= -Benjamin Franklin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:19:14 -0600 From: "JC Jones" Subject: RE: [fsj: Ouray nears...] I'm in a similar boat. I still have to put in a new engine, TH400 and BW1339, and rebuild my drive shafts in my J-10 (It's got a 2:1 Dana 20 now). Not to mention the M-715 bed and front fenders, custom fuel tank/skid plate, custom build sway bar disconnects, new front wheel bearings, and a plethora or other maintenance items. All in the next 4 weeks, on top of work and helping with the planning! Oh well, sleep is really underrated anyway. ;) JC Jones http://www.jtruck.net http://www.wagoneer.net 1979 Jeep J-10 "Max" 1987 Grand Wagoneer 1978 MB 300D "Fritz" 1986 Jeep XJ Cherokee "Junior" * * * * * =================== "They that can give up * * * * =================== essential liberty to * * * * * =================== obtain a little ============================= temporary safety ============================= deserve neither ============================= liberty nor safety." ============================= -Benjamin Franklin - -> -----Original Message----- - -> From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On - -> Behalf Of Michael Shimniok - -> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:19 PM - -> To: fsj-at-digest.net - -> Subject: Re: [fsj: Ouray nears...] - -> - -> - -> john wrote: - -> > I'm going to visit briefly with SuperDawg tomorrow... 5 weeks to - -> > Ouray... not sure if we're going to make it in time... :( - -> - -> Wow... I hope you can pull it off... I fear this will be the - -> case for a few people. I'm still working on my axle swap - -> and trying to fight a hoarde of gremlins (not the 4-wheeled - -> AMC kind, the other AMC kind :)) and get a bunch of other - -> 'goodies' installed. - -> - -> I have a backup truck that'll do fine in a pinch but BOY - -> will I be majorly bummed if I can't bring TC after all these - -> years of build-up. I will either get the axles installed by - -> Wed nite this week or I'm going to enter into a major panic. - -> - -> On top of this we're also putting the finishing details on - -> planning. There is still plenty of work to do before August. - -> - -> FWIW, we're more interested in making sure FSJ -owners- - -> arrive in Ouray in August, than -what- they arrive in. We'd - -> rather see nothing but FSJ's on the streets and trails, but - -> we know these trucks and their owners all too well. - -> :) - -> - -> Michael - -> - -> - -> --- - -> Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net - -> "For every complex problem, there is a solution that - -> is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken - -> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 18:53:39 -0700 From: john Subject: RE: [fsj: gearing for a J10...] At 06:10 PM 7/8/2002 -0700, Jim Sterling wrote: >John, et al, >Of course you could run 4:30's and use 35 inch tall tires. :) >Jim Sterling 4:30's? the tallest tire I'd use is a 33. Big tires just create all kinds of issues... :) heading out to work on the 280Z, it's back from the shop and looking good... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 18:59:26 -0700 From: john Subject: RE: [fsj: gearing for a J10...] At 06:58 PM 7/8/2002 -0700, Jim Sterling wrote: >John, >I understand. But you have to remember that I am running that Dana60 I got >from your buddy at ARB. Also upgrading the front D44 to 4:29 and a trac-lok >(rear has the 4:30's and a detroit). Of course this is not a daily driver >(at least for the wife). >Jim I thought you meant 5:30's... I forgot about the axle. :) Do you think 31's with the 4.09's and the Aisin Warner 4spd od will be a good combo? I wonder if it'll be a problem to run 4.09's with my new 235's for awhile... thoughts? john >-----Original Message----- >From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] >Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 6:54 PM >To: jsterling-at-businessbasic.com >Cc: fsj-at-digest.net >Subject: RE: [fsj: gearing for a J10...] > > >At 06:10 PM 7/8/2002 -0700, Jim Sterling wrote: > >John, et al, > >Of course you could run 4:30's and use 35 inch tall tires. :) > >Jim Sterling > >4:30's? the tallest tire I'd use is a 33. Big tires >just create all kinds of issues... :) > >heading out to work on the 280Z, it's back from the >shop and looking good... :) > >john >------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 22:57:52 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: [fsj: gearing for a J10...] At 03:44 PM 7/8/2002 -0600, Michael Shimniok wrote: >4.10's... 31's... and overdrive... what's to decide?? :) "$" that's all... ;) If the 4.10 rear axle will drop in, which I think it will, and the 4.10 R&P from the front will drop into my driver's side drop D44, which I don't know, then it's just a matter of some labor... 4.10's would assist the get up and go factor in town for certain... and help low speed trail activity. hmmm... >If I had an opportunity like yours, I'd pounce on a set of 4.10 axles in a >second. In my mind, the best part about OD is the ability to run deep diff Almost sold the front axle last night... need to check on whether or not the R&P can be moved... will call Randy's Ring & Pinion to find out... A: Yes they can, but you can get new gears for what you can get for the front axle! BTW, the front axles have flat tops which are machine-able to take high mount steering (the tie rod holes need to be reverse reamed so the tie-rods are on the bottom instead of top though!) >gears without redlining on the hwy... so you can get stupendous performance >without any economy penalty. That's my favorite thing-- getting my cake and >eating it too. :) then how come I saw a drop in fuel economy with my XJ with 4.10's and 30's? oh, yeah, my right foot... yeah, go ahead, blame it on me... my wife does... ;) A: Also, 30 is not 31! (or 35 for that matter! LOL!) >Instead I opted for 3.73's with 33's to get me to a stock 3.31/235 combo >because I just couldn't justify the effort or expense to do anything but a >727 trans. Performance won't be all it could be, but it'll be better than >what I have now without totally driving me nuts on the hwy (but I may not >like going over 65 anymore or may be forced to get a quieter exhaust >system) I spent a fortune on axle regearing and lockers, so this is what >I'm sticking with for the next 10 years I guess. :) I like 3.73s... not sure why... my '67 Wagoneer came with them, and my '99 GC has 'em... seems like a good "middle range" gear ratio... A: I had them in my '69 Ford 3/4 ton camper special (390 2 bbl C6 auto 2WD) and saw 17 mpg with a camper and trailer. >Time to play with some gear calculators, huh? :) yep, need to break out my excel spreadsheet... or look on my own webserver, already have the data there... hold the line, maybe it's in here: http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/tech/GEARING/ with 4.09 gears, around 55mph: 2550 rpm 235's: 53.57 31's: 56.35 http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/tech/GEARING/409gears.html with 3.31's, around 55mph: 2050 rpm 235's: 53.21 31's: 55.98 http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/tech/GEARING/331gears.html with 3.73's, around 55mph: 2250 rpm 235's: 51.83 31's: 55.42 http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/tech/GEARING/373gears.html OF course those figures are with a 1:1 final gear, the overdrive will drop it about 25%. tire size vs. rpm and speed =($A17*I$4*PI()*60)/(I$3*12*5280) a17 is engine rpm I4 is tire diameter estimated 30.38 for the 31x10.5's... Pi is pi... :) 3.1416 I3 is the gear ratio... in this case 3.31 A: You will drop 20%, not 25% with the post '91 AW4 because the ratio changed to .75 from .70 for O/D. Tire pressure and weight will affect the mileage too! >Btw, I'm far more looking forward to meeting you than your truck, but if you >couldn't tell, I am really bummed to hear the news that SuperDawg will be >a no show. Michael This will be a good time. We'll get to put faces to the emails. :) Of course some times that can be a bit frightening... ;) Some of us type better then we look. We must take care not to tramatize young children or little dogs. rofl... john A: Better put some sunblock on now so as not to blind anyone too! LOL! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:08:11 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: RE: WT axles in a NT GW? A: That would work for pre '80 Wagoneers and Cherokees, but the front drop is wrong for '80 and newer (unless you plan to swap transfercase internals with a RH drop NP case like I may have to) That said, I'd like a set of NT '74-'79 for the new toy. The '65 Wagoneer is coming home tomorrow to replace my wife's '99 Ranger (it's HERS to drive but she needs better than stock turning radius. The 327/TH400 will stay and get Holley Pro-Jection) From: Mark Anthony Sproviero Subject: RE: WT axles in a NT GW? I've got a set of QT D44's from a 79 Chief if anybody else is thinking about this... - -Spro Grand Blanc, MI -----Original Message----- From: VanAllen, Jeremy SPC [mailto:Jeremy.VanAllen-at-jackson.army.mil] It ought to make it more stable. Jeremy in SC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:40:08 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: [fsj: Re: quadratrac and (different subject:) OX lockers] A: Hey now! I'll have my 4.0L powered J10 out there! (I plan on doing some wiring and the trans crossbar tomorrow before going to get the '65 Wag. My son is down from Canada to help ensure I get it finished and we both get there! ) From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Re: quadratrac and (different subject:) OX lockers] john wrote: > That's good to know... They have a cable operated Locker too, OX. > I like a locker on a trail and in serious slippery goo... but hate > them on the street... The only problem I see with the OX is it doesn't > appear available for a Model 20. As far as I know, they make them for REAR D44 in 4.10 and lower carrier. They plan to do the 20 but no word on when last I checked. Eaton e-locker may be available some year... good solutions are out there, just none for us. :) I would trust cable or electricity over air any day. Nevertheless, I had no choice but to install an ARB up front on mine while I was having the axles regeared. I decided the turning radius off-road and in snow would leave me regretting a locker and a limited slip seemed pointless for off-road use. Plus, the cost of an ARB was only $150 over a Powertrax Lock Right. The choice was easy. > Since SuperDawg won't be ready for Ouray (means I have to drive the Major poop. :( That stinks. I know the WJ will be nicer to drive but... I doubt I'm the only one disappointed that I won't get to see the cool 4.0L conversion in person. :( :( :( Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:50:40 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: quadratrac A: Ah! But you forget the strongest of the NP cases FSJS got! The NP208, which with the front hubs unlocked, also has the option of 2WD low (great for towing) but it doesn't do 4 hi on dry high traction areas well (who needs it for that though? ) The later model NV242s look pretty good to me (I hope I get my new case soon!) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: quadratrac Quadratrac is Jeep's name for a full time system. The name and function lives on since '73... it's involved three (or four) transfer cases: Borg Warner 1339, New Process 219 and New Process 247 (or is it 249? ;). I've had at least one of each kind. The NP219 was the best from a driving standpoint. The BW has the reputation as the strongest. The Latest version in the '99 and up WJ's has the Gerotor technology. The original Quadratrac came out in '73 and was made by Borg Warner. Jeep switched transmissions, xfr cases and front axles in '80 and the Quadratrac was made by New Process and designated the NP219. They only made it until '82. It's a better full time system then the Borg Warner unit in my opinion. However I don't have a 401 V8 built to the hilt either and my reasons for saying it's better is as follows: 1) it doesn't bind in turns 2) it weighs less 3) it doesn't require vacuum to operate 4) it doesn't require special fluid Jeep reintroduced the Quadratrac with the ZJ a few years before the WJ ('99) was introduced. My '99 WJ has Quadratrac II, an NV(or is it NP?) 247. It's a full time unit with low range, like the older Borg Warner version it does bind a bit in tight turns, or so I've heard, I don't notice it. :) It does require special fluid... but mine also has the Gerotor lock up feature... basically a "trash" lock setup with a pump. So, saying that the '80-82 or later model ZJs or the new WJs don't have Quadratrac is like saying that anything newer then 1979 isn't a Full Size Jeep because it doesn't have a Turbo 400 AT. :) Full time is full time... and has a low range... and an "emergency" lock feature... all wheel drive has no low range, and probably also lacks the lock up (part time mode if you will.) The Selectrac system came out in '83 and offers full time, low range and 2 wheel drive! The later Selectrac, '87 and up, using the NP242 (same as the Hummer) also permitted a "lockup" mode or part time mode. The early NP229(8)s did NOT have a 4wd HIGH lockup mode, but did lock up in low range. (lock up means 50/50 split of power front to rear). My favorite xfr cases are: NP242 and NP219. john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:53:47 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: gearing for a J10... A: The 4.10s allow for much bigger tires though! I've got a set of 32" tires on 16" rims for only $100 (the ones in the pics on Black Jack, which are WAAAYYYY too small now with 8" of lift) From: john Subject: fsj: gearing for a J10... Since SuperDawg ain't gonna make it to Ouray and he's at a point in the process where changing axles would make sense. I'm trying to decide if I should stay with the 3.31's I have now or go to something else. I've got the axles from a '75 J10 with 4.10 gears. SuperDawg will have a 4.0L HO engine with the Aisin Warner 4 speed automatic sporting a .75 final gear overdrive... I'm running 235's right now, but have a set of 31's available... It looks like SuperDawg's primary role will be commuting, with maybe a few runs around 200 miles or so, say to Portland or up to BC. The 3.31's seem like ok gears, but if I swap in the Dana 44 rear axle with 4.10's, I'll need to change the front axle ratio as well. I think that 4.10s would probably be too low, but would help acceleration and movement in traffic, and with the overdrive probably not hurt highway mileage... Considering that I'll be moving an FSJ with an XJ engine I'm thinking that might be ok... if it won't hurt in town economy. Thoughts? Problem is I don't know if the '75 D44 pass side offset R&P will work on the '83 driv side offset D44. Also, I don't know if 4.10s will hurt or help fuel economy in mixed driving. Big unknown. I know in my XJ running 30x9.5s my mileage dropped with 4.10s, of course the overall final ratio was 3% lower then "stock". The options appear to be: 1) buy a 3.31 R&P set for the rear '75 D44 and swap out the M20 2) swap 4.10s into the '83 from the '75, if the front D44 R&P will work (setup for front diff only) 3) buy new R&P fore and aft for the D44s, say 3.73 The OX locker looks pretty good, although I'd be more interested in the Electric lockup True Trac. I'd like to have limited slip on the street and the ability to lock the axles on the trail or in snow... The OX locker or ARBs appear to only offer open or locked, while the True Trac locker, elocker?, would do it all... but aren't available right now that I know of. So, bottom line: 3.31's, 3.73's or 4.10s? Or something else? I'd like a Dana 44 in the rear, but at this point my Model 20 is ok and in place so leaving it alone isn't a problem, except that I'm limited to "locker" selection... hmmm... maybe the OX locker on the D44 in the front would be sufficient for trail use and just leave the rear end open or with a true trac for the model20, I think they are available... what to do, what to do... ;) If SuperDawg would have been done last year these thoughts wouldn't have had a chance... the pandora's box is open now... rofl... ;) john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:57:07 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: [fsj: Ouray nears...] A: Black Jack will be there if I have to pull the EFI and put on a carb and points and run 2WD! My biggest problem at the moment is finding enough rear lift in time to match the front (Alcan is 5 weeks wait!) I don't really want to cut the rear spring mounts and lower the whole assembly, but I will if nothing else comes up! From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Ouray nears...] john wrote: > I'm going to visit briefly with SuperDawg tomorrow... 5 weeks > to Ouray... not sure if we're going to make it in time... :( Wow... I hope you can pull it off... I fear this will be the case for a few people. I'm still working on my axle swap and trying to fight a hoarde of gremlins (not the 4-wheeled AMC kind, the other AMC kind :)) and get a bunch of other 'goodies' installed. I have a backup truck that'll do fine in a pinch but BOY will I be majorly bummed if I can't bring TC after all these years of build-up. I will either get the axles installed by Wed nite this week or I'm going to enter into a major panic. On top of this we're also putting the finishing details on planning. There is still plenty of work to do before August. FWIW, we're more interested in making sure FSJ -owners- arrive in Ouray in August, than -what- they arrive in. We'd rather see nothing but FSJ's on the streets and trails, but we know these trucks and their owners all too well. :) Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:14:14 -0600 From: "Daniel Beiers" Subject: fsj: website Sorry about the cross posts. A friend of mine has started a new website that he asked me to mention to you guys. its not much to look at right now but... its a cool idea. basically, if you are going wheeling anywhere in the country you can "plan a trip" on this website and it keeps the data and makes it really easy to search for groups going in your area etc. i think it could be a great way to meet up. sometimes trip plans get buried in emails of other subjects or get lost in huge digests...i can see how it might be nice to have a bunch of trip info in one place. anyway, he has a lot of time invested and i thought it couldn't hurt to send a link http://www.offroadjourneys.com thanks a lot daniel _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:31:04 -0600 From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [RE: [fsj: Ouray nears...]] Oh, no problem.... gack! :) Yah, that's a pretty intimidating to do list alright. I got my rear axle swapped... it only took me from 8pm to 4am... after midnite I started moving really really slowly. I probably should have either given up or taken painkillers. :) I still have to fill the diff with fluid and get the brakes reassembled. I may delay the locker swap for a little while. That should only be a 2-3 hour job barring problems. The front axle swap will be more time consuming, but hopefully I can take that in small bites (press in new ujoints, tap new vent tube, etc). Btw I have a custom J-truck gas tank that I was going to put in my rig but I don't think it's worth the time/hassle; I'd rather put an air tank back there anyway. Yours free if you want it. May save you some time. I think it's probably 20 gallon minimum. What's this 'sleep' you speak of? :) Michael "JC Jones" wrote: > I'm in a similar boat. I still have to put in a new engine, TH400 and > BW1339, and rebuild my drive shafts in my J-10 (It's got a 2:1 Dana 20 > now). Not to mention the M-715 bed and front fenders, custom fuel > tank/skid plate, custom build sway bar disconnects, new front wheel > bearings, and a plethora or other maintenance items. All in the next 4 > weeks, on top of work and helping with the planning! Oh well, sleep is > really underrated anyway. ;) > > JC Jones http://www.jtruck.net http://www.wagoneer.net - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1686 **************************