From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Oct 14 14:22:28 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, October 14 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1767 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: MAJOR FSJ ARTICLE COMING IN GERMANY'S CHROM & FLAMMEN fsj: TH400 - 360 bushing???? fsj: Re: Before SAE J245. fsj: REF: While having a 360 rebuilt fsj: Re: TH400 - 360 bushing fsj: Re: Crank spacer bushing TH400 fsj: Re: 360 bushing fsj: RE: TH400 - 360 bushing???? fsj: Re: Crank spacer bushing TH400 fsj: Re: TH400 - 360 bushing fsj: Re: Crank spacer bushing TH400 fsj: Re: Snohomish Jeep Fest? fsj: Re: [FSJ-List] Re: Crank spacer bushing TH400 FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:40:24 EDT From: RMSquaredJeeps-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: MAJOR FSJ ARTICLE COMING IN GERMANY'S CHROM & FLAMMEN Hi everyone, it's been a long time since my last post but I have some good news to share. One of my overseas titles, CHROM & FLAMMEN has commissioned me to do a full feature, 8 to 10 pages, on the history of the Wagoneer, 1963 to 1991. I will be doing sidebars on the FS Cherokee, the pickups and the military derivatives to go along with the story but it will focus on the Wagoneer. I need some excellent photos to illustrate this story, leaning towards front 3/4 beauty shots of stock vehicles although I will be doing a sidebar on modified trail rigs so I will need photos of modified vehicles. Here's my wish list: Clean 1963 first year Wagoneer IFS-equipped Wagoneer with photos of the front suspension setup Sedan delivery Wagoneer 2WD Wagoneer Super Wagoneer - got this one covered already Clean 1970 first year AMC Wagoneer 1970s Wagoneer with a factory installed sunroof Clean 401-equipped Wagoneer Clean Wagoneer Limited Clean 1984 - 1990 Grand Wagoneer Best possible example of a last year, 1991 Grand Wagoneer Any Wagoneer with unusual or rare factory options (such as a Grand Wagoneer with no wood) Any FSJ with historic notoriety (documented actual early or late production unit, Wagoneer used in a movie or over a long distance endurance run) Details of unique OEM or aftermarket accessories Details of the various styles of grilles offered for an identification guide sidebar (full frontal view, shot from headlight level). Underhood shots of exceptionally original or restored engine compartments Interior shots of original or restored vehicles (shots should be taken in the shade, with a camera mounted on a tripod for best results) I'll also need a few shots of Cherokees, pickups and the military versions. Original or restored stock only. If you feel I'm missing something noteworthy, feel free to submit it. Here's my technical requirements for photography: Color JPG or TIFF (low compression/high quality JPGs preferred) 1500 x 1200 (5 x 4 inches -at- 300 DPI minimum pixel size, even bigger images from 3 - 5-meagapixel cameras preferred) Sharp, crisp, well-lighted image quality For stock beauty shots, front 3/4 images preferred No people in photo, if possible (use the stock photos as an example) Color, of course Remember, the images, if selected, will be used in a glossy, 4-color publication that will finally showcase our favorite type of Jeep. I'm hoping that after this is published in early 2003, that a US publication like Collectible Automobile, Four Wheeler or even JP, might pick up US rights so submit the best possible shots of your FSJ. If you think you can help and would like to submit a photo of your FSJ for consideration, please send your images to rmsquaredjeeps-at-aol.com. If you plan to submit more than one image, please attach just a single image per E-mail. Please include your name, year, make and model of your FSJ, in the text of the E-mail along with permission to use the photo (although that is explicit by submission). I have no idea if the editor will choose to use the photos I'm submitting, but it is a solid chance to have your FSJ profiled in a high-quality publication with exceptional production values. If you live in Southern California and you think that you have a worthy Jeep, please contact me directly as it may be possible for me to photograph your Jeep myself. Thanks for any help that you can provide. If you know someone with a photogenic Jeep, not on one of the lists, please feel free to pass along this message. Sincerely, Rich Truesdell Yorba Linda, CA 1969 Jeep Super Wagoneer http://www.richtruesdell.com/background1.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:21:21 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: TH400 - 360 bushing???? bushing or no bushing? pictures on the web... http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ email john-at-wagoneers.com or post to the fsj list on digest.net. trying to figure this out... that is whether it's needed or not. converting a '77 Cherokee from a T-18(for sale) to a TH400/QT. thanx, john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 06:12:27 -0400 From: "B. C." Subject: fsj: Re: Before SAE J245. Greetings Jim! Jim Cotter wrote: > Brian, do you know what SAE J standard was used to measure horse power > in cars during the 1960s ? The only thing I know for sure, is that the > J245 went into effect in 1972, and the J607 was for small engines, not > cars. Any help would be appreciated, thank you, Jim Cotter. > jimcotter-at-hotmail.com > I am not familiar with this standard; and relating it to horse power would be an interesting calculation. I am thinking that before we got the multigrade oils, that most all engines just ran on 30 weight oil. So I would think that would make horse power calculations easier since you had one consistent oil viscosity. I am forwarding this back to the group to see what their thoughts are on this big question. Until The Next Dimension, Admiral "Coluch." Starfleet Headquarters Ohio Post END TRANSMISSION.................................... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:53:03 -0400 From: "Frazier Phillips" Subject: fsj: REF: While having a 360 rebuilt I am planning to send my 360 engine from my 86 GW to the shop for a rebuild. While the engine is being rebuilt, I plan to check some vacuum values. My question is, "Do all values need to be checked?" I plan to replace the fuel pump, water pump, and have the starter tested. Are there any other items I am over looking? Thanks to B.C. for giving me help in posting to this group. He said: Greetings Shorty! Your message only made it to me, as the moderator of the group. Just drop the OWNER from infront of your E-Mail address for the group, and you will post directly to the forum. I hope that helps you get you message to the right place. Sorry about that. I hardly ever post anything. I just read. I probably need help in the correct way to read this post also. I did receive a couple of replies from my first post. 1. Radiator clean up. (I just brought a new radiator.) 2. Replace the front seal on the automatic transmission I am planning to convert the AC during this time. Does anyone have a part list or a good source for parts? I had this checked out by a person who does this kind of work. He said I needed to change out the compressor (The old one is leaking.), the two hoses that go to the compressor, and the dryer. Thanks, Shorty [demime 0.99c.7 removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:26:21 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: TH400 - 360 bushing so the thin sleeve is for the TF727??? that makes sense... that's right, vince has an '81!!! john On Sun, 13 Oct 2002 FSJ1978-at-aol.com wrote: >--> OK, here's what I know about the bushing I believe you're referring to... >-->When we got our 401, it came from an AMC Ambassador with a Chrysler trans >-->behind it. It had the very thin 'bushing' on the inside of the crank that >-->the torque converter snout sits in. With the TH400 trans, you remove the >-->bushing (it's really just a very thin sleeve). >--> I hope this helps. >--> >-->Chris Enos (Chino, CA) >--> >-->'91 Isuzu Amigo "Rover" (Calmini header / 2 1/4" exhaust) >-->'89 Ford Probe "Lazarus" (Stock / 208000 miles / 30MPG!!!) >-->'78 Cherokee "Hercules" (401 / Holley "D" Projection) >--> (Holley "Z" intake / MSD ignition with in-cab timing adjustment box) >--> (TH400 / Q-track with part-time kit / 3.55 / 35" / Onboard air / Ramsey >-->winch) >-->'73 Datson 240Z (300 Buick / T5 5-speed trans / Rollcage / PROJECT CAR!) >-->'64 Buick Skylark (300 Buick / TH400 / Olds Cutlass 12bolt 3.50 posi) >--> ( the one that started it all !! ) >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 09:34:42 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Crank spacer bushing TH400 At 11:31 PM 10/13/2002 -0700, Jim B wrote: >They are there! So thin it's REAL hard to see! I don't think so... :) I took pictures, so did Curtis, we don't see no bushings. Vince did send a picture, while thin, it's quite apparent that it's there, see: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ It's becoming apparent that they need the spacers for the Torqueflite and not the TH400... will continue to look into it before we install. Curtis looked at two TH400 setups, original, neither had the spacers. Vince sent me a picture of one, but thinking about it, he has an '81 and uses a torqueflite. So, if someone didn't remove the spacers or the pilot bushing from a TF727 install, or manual, and installed a TH400 they'd damage the Torque converter. At least that's the way it's looking at this point. BTW, I examined the '77 Service manual and I can't find any mention of that thin bushing either. We'll continue to sort this all out. I'm sure that Jim is aware of a problem, we just need to sort out which way the problem exists. Since Jim has never had a TH400 setup and is dealing with this 2nd hand we can't be sure until we're sure... ;) Appreciate bringing this to our attention Jim, we'll sort it out with a little help from our friends. :) john meister john-at-wagoneers.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 09:40:49 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: 360 bushing which picture? On the pictures I took there is the pilot bushing still in place that we need to remove. The picture that Vince sent, http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/th400-bushing.jpg shows one, hey Vince, what year was this from again? The pictures Curtis took or from TH400 installs, the "jam" pictures. The "77-chero" crank pictures are the ones I took of my son's 77, the pilot bushing still in place... If I saw your face (and or Wag) I'd probably remember it. :) One regret about Ouray is we just flat out didn't have enough meetings of owners. The picnic and the BBQ were pretty much it. Would have liked to have had more gatherings of people. :( john At 10:30 PM 10/13/2002 -0600, Nels wrote: >Hey John, >I looked at the pic and I'm 99.99999% sure that you have a bushing on >there. My bro (Kong) and I just got done taking one off his 401 a few >months ago, and that's what it looked like. I'll show the pic to him to >make sure though. BTW, you may not remember me from Ouray, but it was >nice meeting you - one of the "originals." > >Nelson Davis >1986 Jeep Grand Wagoneer >Provo, Utah - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:29:09 -0600 From: "JC Jones" Subject: fsj: RE: TH400 - 360 bushing???? If you put a TH400 in, you will need the TH400 torque converter bushing or you will suffer flex plate cracking in short order. The problem is that as far as I can tell those bushings are no longer available. I had a transmission shop give me something they claimed was the right bushing, but it was about 3mm too large (diameter). I assume that the T-18 crank you have pictures of still has the pilot bushing in the center hole of the crank (which will have to be removed). Unfortunately, I could not find the right bushing and did not have enough time to have one machined when I was putting my engine in my J-10 so I could take it to Ouray. I am sure that I will have to deal with a cracked flexplate sometime over the next year or two. JC Jones http://www.jtruck.net http://www.wagoneer.net 1979 Jeep J-10 "Max" 1987 Grand Wagoneer 1978 MB 300D "Fritz" 1986 Jeep XJ Cherokee "Junior" * * * * * =================== "They that can give up * * * * =================== essential liberty to * * * * * =================== obtain a little ============================= temporary safety ============================= deserve neither ============================= liberty nor safety." ============================= -Benjamin Franklin - -> -----Original Message----- - -> From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On - -> Behalf Of john - -> Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 8:21 PM - -> To: Recipient list suppressed - -> Subject: fsj: TH400 - 360 bushing???? - -> - -> - -> bushing or no bushing? - -> - -> pictures on the web... - -> http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ email john-at-wagoneers.com or post to the fsj list on digest.net. trying to figure this out... that is whether it's needed or not. converting a '77 Cherokee from a T-18(for sale) to a TH400/QT. thanx, john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 09:57:00 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: Re: Crank spacer bushing TH400 A: ABSOLUTELY NOT! That sleeve is what KILLS 727s (I can document that with several thou$and$ worth of damage$ and pictures!) Want more proof? Use and inside mic in the crank hole, and measure the TH400 hub with an outside one. They don't put them on motors with std trans, BUT the sleeve could have stuck to the torque converter hub. You could get away with aligning the converter carefully without the sleeve, but if it wasn't right, the resultant vibration would destroy the motor in short order. - ----- Original Message ----- From: john Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 9:35 AM To: Jim B Subject: Re: Crank spacer bushing TH400 At 11:31 PM 10/13/2002 -0700, Jim B wrote: >They are there! So thin it's REAL hard to see! I don't think so... :) I took pictures, so did Curtis, we don't see no bushings. Vince did send a picture, while thin, it's quite apparent that it's there, see: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ It's becoming apparent that they need the spacers for the Torqueflite and not the TH400... will continue to look into it before we install. Curtis looked at two TH400 setups, original, neither had the spacers. Vince sent me a picture of one, but thinking about it, he has an '81 and uses a torqueflite. So, if someone didn't remove the spacers or the pilot bushing from a TF727 install, or manual, and installed a TH400 they'd damage the Torque converter. At least that's the way it's looking at this point. BTW, I examined the '77 Service manual and I can't find any mention of that thin bushing either. We'll continue to sort this all out. I'm sure that Jim is aware of a problem, we just need to sort out which way the problem exists. Since Jim has never had a TH400 setup and is dealing with this 2nd hand we can't be sure until we're sure... ;) Appreciate bringing this to our attention Jim, we'll sort it out with a little help from our friends. :) john meister john-at-wagoneers.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 09:59:59 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: TH400 - 360 bushing this makes sense... a 401 WITH a chrysler trans HAD the bushing. need to remove the bushing for a TH400, right? That's why Curtis didn't find one. And why Vince had one. http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ So, bottom line, as far as I can tell: Chrysler (TF727) trans - NEED the sleeve TH400 trans - does not require the sleeve john meister john-at-wagoneers.com At 10:38 PM 10/13/2002 -0400, FSJ1978-at-aol.com wrote: > OK, here's what I know about the bushing I believe you're referring > to... >When we got our 401, it came from an AMC Ambassador with a Chrysler trans >behind it. It had the very thin 'bushing' on the inside of the crank that >the torque converter snout sits in. With the TH400 trans, you remove the >bushing (it's really just a very thin sleeve). > I hope this helps. > >Chris Enos (Chino, CA) > >'91 Isuzu Amigo "Rover" (Calmini header / 2 1/4" exhaust) >'89 Ford Probe "Lazarus" (Stock / 208000 miles / 30MPG!!!) >'78 Cherokee "Hercules" (401 / Holley "D" Projection) > (Holley "Z" intake / MSD ignition with in-cab timing adjustment box) > (TH400 / Q-track with part-time kit / 3.55 / 35" / Onboard air / Ramsey >winch) >'73 Datson 240Z (300 Buick / T5 5-speed trans / Rollcage / PROJECT CAR!) >'64 Buick Skylark (300 Buick / TH400 / Olds Cutlass 12bolt 3.50 posi) > ( the one that started it all !! ) - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:08:35 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Crank spacer bushing TH400 now I'm getting very confused... so far Chris and Vince reported having the sleeve, both had Chrysler trannies from what I can tell. I've seen three or four TH400 360's and not seen a sleeve. If the sleeve isn't there, will it hurt a TH400? http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ john At 09:57 AM 10/14/2002 -0700, Jim B wrote: >A: ABSOLUTELY NOT! That sleeve is what KILLS 727s (I can document that >with several thou$and$ worth of damage$ and pictures!) Want more proof? >Use and inside mic in the crank hole, and measure the TH400 hub with an >outside one. They don't put them on motors with std trans, BUT the sleeve >could have stuck to the torque converter hub. You could get away with >aligning the converter carefully without the sleeve, but if it wasn't >right, the resultant vibration would destroy the motor in short order. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: john >Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 9:35 AM >To: Jim B >Subject: Re: Crank spacer bushing TH400 > >At 11:31 PM 10/13/2002 -0700, Jim B wrote: > >They are there! So thin it's REAL hard to see! >I don't think so... :) I took pictures, so did Curtis, >we don't see no bushings. Vince did send a picture, while >thin, it's quite apparent that it's there, see: >http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ > >It's becoming apparent that they need the spacers for >the Torqueflite and not the TH400... will continue to >look into it before we install. > >Curtis looked at two TH400 setups, original, neither had >the spacers. > >Vince sent me a picture of one, but thinking about it, he >has an '81 and uses a torqueflite. > >So, if someone didn't remove the spacers or the pilot >bushing from a TF727 install, or manual, and installed >a TH400 they'd damage the Torque converter. > >At least that's the way it's looking at this point. > >BTW, I examined the '77 Service manual and I can't >find any mention of that thin bushing either. > >We'll continue to sort this all out. I'm sure that Jim >is aware of a problem, we just need to sort out which way >the problem exists. Since Jim has never had a TH400 setup >and is dealing with this 2nd hand we can't be sure until >we're sure... ;) Appreciate bringing this to our attention >Jim, we'll sort it out with a little help from our friends. :) > >john meister >john-at-wagoneers.com >------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:14:50 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Snohomish Jeep Fest? How about this Sunday afternoon? Jim? Curtis? Walt? Joe? Eddie? brad? chris? :) Any one up here in the PNW interested? An XJ fest, or should we make it an FSJ/XJ/MJ fest so more will show up? :) I think the weather might be good yet this weekend... Say around 2pm - 4pm Sunday, Oct 20? My son's '77 Cherokee is in the middle of a TH400 swap in, providing we can figure out the bushing on the crank situation: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ I'm thinking of a 2 or 3 inch lift on my '87 and using my 31x10.5's... :) guess I'll call a few places for a cheap lift. john At 09:53 PM 10/13/2002 -0700, Alan Chung wrote: >Hey John > > That sounds good, we havent had one in a while. Although I do work >Saturdays now, but any Sunday will usually do. Let me know when you >have one, Ill be there! > >Mahalo Alan - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:22:00 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [FSJ-List] Re: Crank spacer bushing TH400 wow, the plot thickens... :) the 401 had the sleeve, and I know that the 401 only had the TH400 behind it, in the Jeeps anyway, not sure about the madators. ;) So what Jim has been saying, if I understand him correctly, is that the sleeve is BAD for a TF727. So, is the sleeve REQUIRED for a TH400 or not???? http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ john meister john-at-wagoneers.com At 01:18 PM 10/14/2002 -0400, DDDservice-at-aol.com wrote: >John, >The 401 crank for my stroker had the sleeve. Sorry, don't know what tranny >was behind it. I had the machine shop pull the sleeve so I could put a 727 >behind it. I have the sleeve (intact) and will mail it to you if you like. >Glenn Brooke >'86 GW >'83 WT >'80 WT (parts) >'53 Willys PU > >In a message dated 10/14/02 12:12:40 PM EST, diesel-at-wagoneers.com writes: > > > now I'm getting very confused... > > > > so far Chris and Vince reported having the sleeve, both > > had Chrysler trannies from what I can tell. > > > > I've seen three or four TH400 360's and not seen a sleeve. > > > > If the sleeve isn't there, will it hurt a TH400? > > > > http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ > > > > john > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1767 **************************