From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Oct 15 16:51:29 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, October 15 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1768 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: TH400 - 360 bushing Re: fsj: Re: Before SAE J245 Re: fsj: RE: TH400 - 360 bushing???? Re: fsj: Re: TH400 - 360 bushing Re: fsj: Re: Snohomish Jeep Fest? fsj: Re: [FSJ-List] Re: Crank spacer bushing TH400 fsj: Re: Fwd: [FSJ-List] Re: Crank spacer bushing TH400 fsj: Re: question about wood grain fsj: RE: Snohomish Jeep Fest? fsj: Re: JC's input on the flex plate situation fsj: administrivia: notes on using this list fsj: Leaking drain plug FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:28:59 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: Re: TH400 - 360 bushing It may have come from a Jeep, and been installed in the Ambassador (was the 727 totalled?) - ----- Original Message ----- From: john Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 10:05 AM Cc: Jim B Subject: Re: TH400 - 360 bushing this makes sense... a 401 WITH a chrysler trans HAD the bushing. need to remove the bushing for a TH400, right? That's why Curtis didn't find one. And why Vince had one. http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ So, bottom line, as far as I can tell: Chrysler (TF727) trans - NEED the sleeve TH400 trans - does not require the sleeve john meister john-at-wagoneers.com At 10:38 PM 10/13/2002 -0400, FSJ1978-at-aol.com wrote: > OK, here's what I know about the bushing I believe you're referring > to... >When we got our 401, it came from an AMC Ambassador with a Chrysler trans >behind it. It had the very thin 'bushing' on the inside of the crank that >the torque converter snout sits in. With the TH400 trans, you remove the >bushing (it's really just a very thin sleeve). > I hope this helps. > >Chris Enos (Chino, CA) > >'91 Isuzu Amigo "Rover" (Calmini header / 2 1/4" exhaust) >'89 Ford Probe "Lazarus" (Stock / 208000 miles / 30MPG!!!) >'78 Cherokee "Hercules" (401 / Holley "D" Projection) > (Holley "Z" intake / MSD ignition with in-cab timing adjustment box) > (TH400 / Q-track with part-time kit / 3.55 / 35" / Onboard air / Ramsey >winch) >'73 Datson 240Z (300 Buick / T5 5-speed trans / Rollcage / PROJECT CAR!) >'64 Buick Skylark (300 Buick / TH400 / Olds Cutlass 12bolt 3.50 posi) > ( the one that started it all !! ) - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:35:04 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Before SAE J245 A: Not sure about those ratings, but before '72 AMC (which wasn't quite AMC yet) rated motors in gross HP (without any accessories) and with all the added stuff after (industry standard) which is why the books show a big HP drop in '72 and on for all automakers. From: "B. C." Subject: fsj: Re: Before SAE J245. Greetings Jim! Jim Cotter wrote: > Brian, do you know what SAE J standard was used to measure horse power > in cars during the 1960s ? The only thing I know for sure, is that the > J245 went into effect in 1972, and the J607 was for small engines, not > cars. Any help would be appreciated, thank you, Jim Cotter. > jimcotter-at-hotmail.com > I am not familiar with this standard; and relating it to horse power would be an interesting calculation. I am thinking that before we got the multigrade oils, that most all engines just ran on 30 weight oil. So I would think that would make horse power calculations easier since you had one consistent oil viscosity. I am forwarding this back to the group to see what their thoughts are on this big question. Until The Next Dimension, Admiral "Coluch." Starfleet Headquarters Ohio Post END TRANSMISSION.................................... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:36:25 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: RE: TH400 - 360 bushing???? A: I posted the part number (readily available from the Jeep dealer) a couple days ago from the other list. From: "JC Jones" Subject: fsj: RE: TH400 - 360 bushing???? If you put a TH400 in, you will need the TH400 torque converter bushing or you will suffer flex plate cracking in short order. The problem is that as far as I can tell those bushings are no longer available. I had a transmission shop give me something they claimed was the right bushing, but it was about 3mm too large (diameter). I assume that the T-18 crank you have pictures of still has the pilot bushing in the center hole of the crank (which will have to be removed). Unfortunately, I could not find the right bushing and did not have enough time to have one machined when I was putting my engine in my J-10 so I could take it to Ouray. I am sure that I will have to deal with a cracked flexplate sometime over the next year or two. JC Jones http://www.jtruck.net http://www.wagoneer.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:38:22 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: TH400 - 360 bushing A: One minor problem with this thought. The 401 was used for 2 years in cars with 727, and 2 years with the Borg Warner auto (which didn't need the sleeve) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: TH400 - 360 bushing this makes sense... a 401 WITH a chrysler trans HAD the bushing. need to remove the bushing for a TH400, right? That's why Curtis didn't find one. And why Vince had one. http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ So, bottom line, as far as I can tell: Chrysler (TF727) trans - NEED the sleeve TH400 trans - does not require the sleeve john meister john-at-wagoneers.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:42:47 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Snohomish Jeep Fest? A: I'm doing Turkey day next sunday. (Canadian T-day late by 1 week because no-one could get time off this weekend) BTW, I sent a message to the digest list I forgot to bcc to John. The 401 came 2 years with 727 in Ambassadors, and 2 years prior to that with Borg Warner (which didn't need the sleeve because the crank was drilled to fit the BW and they never changed it. The 727 neck just happens to be the same size as the BW) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Snohomish Jeep Fest? How about this Sunday afternoon? Jim? Curtis? Walt? Joe? Eddie? brad? chris? :) Any one up here in the PNW interested? An XJ fest, or should we make it an FSJ/XJ/MJ fest so more will show up? :) I think the weather might be good yet this weekend... Say around 2pm - 4pm Sunday, Oct 20? My son's '77 Cherokee is in the middle of a TH400 swap in, providing we can figure out the bushing on the crank situation: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ I'm thinking of a 2 or 3 inch lift on my '87 and using my 31x10.5's... :) guess I'll call a few places for a cheap lift. john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:52:57 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [FSJ-List] Re: Crank spacer bushing TH400 where's the link? :) I will take you up on the offer for the bushing if we determine it's needed... thanx! john At 01:49 PM 10/14/2002 -0400, DDDservice-at-aol.com wrote: >Hi John, >Don't know what the results would be if you left it out. Here is a link to >TCI website outlining TC details, fits and clearances. You ought to be able >to measure out your crank end and compare to their limits. Let me know if you >need the spacer. >Glenn > >In a message dated 10/14/02 12:23:15 PM EST, john-at-wagoneers.com writes: > > > > > wow, the plot thickens... :) the 401 had the sleeve, and > > I know that the 401 only had the TH400 behind it, in the > > Jeeps anyway, not sure about the madators. ;) > > > > So what Jim has been saying, if I understand him correctly, > > is that the sleeve is BAD for a TF727. > > > > So, is the sleeve REQUIRED for a TH400 or not???? > > > > http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ > > > > john meister > > john-at-wagoneers.com > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:57:27 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Fwd: [FSJ-List] Re: Crank spacer bushing TH400 thanx, will check it out... :) john meister john-at-wagoneers.com At 01:52 PM 10/14/2002 -0400, DDDservice-at-aol.com wrote: >I guess I should have given the link: >http://www.tciauto.com/tech_info/converter_dims.htm > >Glenn Subject: Re: [FSJ-List] Re: Crank spacer bushing TH400 >To: john-at-wagoneers.com >CC: fsj-list-at-yahoogroups.com >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 114 > >Hi John, >Don't know what the results would be if you left it out. Here is a link to >TCI website outlining TC details, fits and clearances. You ought to be able >to measure out your crank end and compare to their limits. Let me know if you >need the spacer. >Glenn > >In a message dated 10/14/02 12:23:15 PM EST, john-at-wagoneers.com writes: > > > > > wow, the plot thickens... :) the 401 had the sleeve, and > > I know that the 401 only had the TH400 behind it, in the > > Jeeps anyway, not sure about the madators. ;) > > > > So what Jim has been saying, if I understand him correctly, > > is that the sleeve is BAD for a TF727. > > > > So, is the sleeve REQUIRED for a TH400 or not???? > > > > http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ > > > > john meister > > john-at-wagoneers.com > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:18:31 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: question about wood grain At 03:02 PM 10/14/2002 -0500, John Pettit "John Pettit" wrote: >John, > Is there a place where i could get the wood grain adhesive for pretty > cheap? Do you have any ideas? > Thanks, > John Pettit JC Whitney, auto body supply stores, ebay... even the dealer. :) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:22:36 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: RE: Snohomish Jeep Fest? sounds good, we'll see who else will be able to make it over. :) 2-4pm this Sunday. :) john At 11:25 AM 10/14/2002 -0700, allyoop wrote: >Sounds good, John. > >I should be able to make it over. > >The truck is running quite well. > >Walt > >-----Original Message----- >From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] >Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 10:15 AM >To: Alan Chung >Subject: Re: Snohomish Jeep Fest? > > >How about this Sunday afternoon? Jim? Curtis? Walt? Joe? >Eddie? brad? chris? :) > >Any one up here in the PNW interested? An XJ fest, or >should we make it an FSJ/XJ/MJ fest so more will show up? :) > >I think the weather might be good yet this weekend... >Say around 2pm - 4pm Sunday, Oct 20? > >My son's '77 Cherokee is in the middle of a TH400 swap in, >providing we can figure out the bushing on the crank situation: >http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate/ > >I'm thinking of a 2 or 3 inch lift on my '87 >and using my 31x10.5's... :) guess I'll call a >few places for a cheap lift. > >john > >At 09:53 PM 10/13/2002 -0700, Alan Chung wrote: > >Hey John > > > > That sounds good, we havent had one in a while. Although I do work > >Saturdays now, but any Sunday will usually do. Let me know when you > >have one, Ill be there! > > > >Mahalo Alan > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:56:27 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: JC's input on the flex plate situation ok, this makes sense and agrees with what Jim is saying, but not what curtis and I have found. (yes, the pictures I took still show the pilot bushing in place). So, if we install without this bushing, then we could see excessive flex plate movement leading to a cracked flex plate, correct? My guess is that if it hasn't happened in Max after the trip to Ouray, it might not ever happen... big tires and big hills usually make things that are going to break break. :) thanx, john meister http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/360-TH400-Bushing-debate At 05:23 PM 10/14/2002 +0000, fsj-digest wrote: >Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:29:09 -0600 >From: "JC Jones" >Subject: fsj: RE: TH400 - 360 bushing???? > >If you put a TH400 in, you will need the TH400 torque converter bushing >or you will suffer flex plate cracking in short order. The problem is >that as far as I can tell those bushings are no longer available. I had >a transmission shop give me something they claimed was the right >bushing, but it was about 3mm too large (diameter). I assume that the >T-18 crank you have pictures of still has the pilot bushing in the >center hole of the crank (which will have to be removed). > >Unfortunately, I could not find the right bushing and did not have >enough time to have one machined when I was putting my engine in my J-10 >so I could take it to Ouray. I am sure that I will have to deal with a >cracked flexplate sometime over the next year or two. > >JC Jones http://www.jtruck.net http://www.wagoneer.net >1979 Jeep J-10 "Max" 1987 Grand Wagoneer - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 06:15:01 +0000 From: Richard Welty Subject: fsj: administrivia: notes on using this list Digest.Net mailing list "Meta FAQ" These general notes on using Digest.Net mailing lists are posted on the 1st and 15th of each month. This file may be found on the web at http://www.digest.net/general-notes.txt [last revised 5/1/02; removed list of spam strings, as i'm not the only one filtering on them -- rpw] Additional information on Digest.Net's spam policies may be found at http://www.digest.net/email-policy.html and http://www.digest.net/blocked.html Table of Contents 1. Why don't my postings go through? 2. Why can't I unsubscribe? 3. How do I post to the list? 4. Where are the archives? 5. What other lists are on digest.net? 6. Is there a web subscription form? 7. Why not move the lists to someplace like (egroups, topica,...)? 8. How do I contact the server adminstrator in an emergency? 9. What is Krusty Motorsports, anyway? The Meta-FAQ 1. Why don't my postings go through? There are several things that may interfere with postings making it to the list. a) Are you a member? Some read the ftp archives rather than receiving the list in email. Persons who read the list via email are automatically members, but readers of the FTP archive are not, and need to contact me (rwelty-at-krusty-motorsports.com) and get your name added to the list of "permitted senders". b) has your email address changed? some of you have had changes in your email address. your old address still works, and is still on the list, but your From: line shows a new address. this can happen for various reasons; you may have changed jobs or ISPs, and left a forward in place, or your IT staff may have fiddled with the email system. you will need to unsubscribe your old email address and subscribe the new one. this may require my involvement, if you can't figure out a way to get your old address off the list using the conventional majordomo commands. you can use the majordomo "which" command to probe for old addresses. send a message to majordomo-at-digest.net with one or more which commands in the body, one per line. to check for potential addresses for Fred Flinstone, formerly of bedrock.org, the following commands can be sent: which flintstone which bedrock note that the matches above might return any of the following addresses, if they appear in the list (in other words, you can use vagueness and incompleteness in your recollection as a tool): Fred.Flinstone-at-bedrock.org fflinstone-at-wilma.bedrock.org flintstonef-at-bedrock.com c) do you have more than one email address? if so, only the subscribed addresses can post, unless you contact me (see 1.a) above for relevant information) d) are you using (intentionally or accidentially) special "features" of your mail client? [this section is no longer operative, as the demime software now strips html, attachments, rich text format, etc. from postings automatically.] e) are your posts too large? there is a 10,000 character limit on posting sizes; this is done for various reasons. you can always split up large postings to get mail through. f) are you including majordomo commands at the start of your message? administrivia control is turned on; this is a trap for things like "unsubscribe" at the start of a message. try to avoid obvious majordomo commands in the subject and the first 10 lines, or misspell them in obvious ways (e.g. unzubscribe, 1ndex, h3lp, g3t, etc.) g) are you triggering spam traps? some things are red flags; for example, many phrases found commonly in spam are automatically blocked. h) are you using "funky" character sets? [7 bit restriction lifted experimentally on 8/2/00 -- film at 11] unfortunately, there are "issues" if i permit any character set other than old fashioned 7 level ASCII; therefore, you need to avoid national character sets that include various accents, umlauts, national currency characters such as the British pound symbol, etc. i) are you unintentionally including complete digests in your reply? You need to check and make sure you cut down replys to the minimal size; digests are between 20,000 and 25,000 characters in length, and if you include a complete digest in your reply, it clearly won't make the 10,000 character limit. By the way, this feature is intentional. j) Are you using a "bad" ISP or mail relay? See http://www.digest.net/email-policy.html for more information about Digest.Net policies about email. k) Is the error message you get back "User Unknown"? If so, you may be running afoul of spam control severices (again, see http://www.digest.net/email-policy.html) When these services register a hit, the error code 550 is returned. 550 is a generic code that many broken mail systems report as "user unknown". The "rejectlog" entries for the previous day's mail traffic on digest.net may be viewed at http://www.digest.net/rejectlog.01 Some of you may find it useful or instructive to use the telnet program to connect directly to port 25 on krusty-motorsports.com and see what kind of reply you get; this requires some technical knowledge and is not for everyone (you can get out of this at anytime after the initial banner simply by typing quit and hitting enter.) l) Is SMTP over TLS involved? This is a bit esoteric, but as of 8/8/01 the digest.net mail server will attempt to use "TLS" (Transport Layer Security) for outbound mail if the destination mail server offers it. SMTP over TLS is fairly new technology, and a bit buggy. I am monitoring the logs on the server, and when I see TLS related problems, I manually place the problem destinations on a special exception list; however, this may delay email to the destination host until I make the exception. 2. Why can't I unsubscribe? a) are you using the right address? send to majordomo-at-digest.net, and the command format is unsubscribe list-name my-email-address b) has your email address changed? majordomo has no way of knowing that Fred.Flinstone-at-BarneyCo.com was once fflintstone-at-bedrock.org. you can check this with the which command (see 1.b) above for details) 3. How do I post to the list? You may use either one of two addresses: for example, the bmw-digest may be reached using either bmw-at-digest.net or bmw-digest-at-digest.net If you are using the correct addresses and your posts don't show up, check out the stuff in 1. above. 4. Where are the archives? see ftp://ftp.digest.net/ for digest archives. the web archives have proven problematic, and are awaiting time for a systematic attack on the problems they've been having. 5. What other lists are on digest.net? see http://www.digest.net/ for more information. 6. Is there a web subscription form? Yes, recently added. go to http://www.digest.net/bin/digest-subs.cgi 7. Why not move the lists to someplace like (egroups, topica,...)? The Krusty Motorsports server (aka, digest.net) was explicitly to provide for efficient management of the various automotive mailing lists, done the way that the owner of the server wanted it done. Any migration off of the server (which is already bought, paid for, and configured) would create any number of issues. 8. How do i contact the Server Administrator in an emergency? If my regular email address (rwelty-at-krusty-motorsports.com) isn't working for you, you can fall back on rwelty-at-suespammers.org 9. What is Krusty Motorsports, anyway? Krusty Motorsports (http:/www.krusty-motorsports.com/) is a business which is owned and operated by Richard Welty (rwelty-at-krusty-motorsports.com). Krusty is an S-Corporation in the State of New York. Krusty provides a number of Internet related services, such as mailing list, web sites, pop3/telnet accounts, and consulting on internet related issues. For more information, see the web site. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 00:02:14 -0700 From: "Paul and Megan Kershner" Subject: fsj: Leaking drain plug As most of you know, a deer met its maker with the front of my '84 GW on the way back home from Ouray. After repairing it enough to get the family home, the Insurance company totaled it. I took the money and bought it back for a minimal amount. The decision to fix it went away when I found this nice looking 1991, Final Edition GW with 151K on it - I bought it. Soon, I will be posting a list of parts I am selling, but if you need something sooner e-mail me off-list and I will accommodate you the best I can. Of course, as my daily driver, I am finding all sorts of things that the PO either screwed up or someone screwed up for him. Intake leak, Exhaust Manifold leak, oil leak - even a spot on the tranny cooling lines that rubbed, wore thin and was bleeding fluid from the side of the tubing. The PO's mechanics stripped the drain plug and then put an oversize plug into the pan. I put a nylon washer on it, but only slowed the flow. It still drips a little, and that is too much. Short of buying a new oil pan from the dealer -at- $157.00 or buying a new one on eBay for $79 + $15 shipping, does anyone have any suggestions as to how to fix the darned drip? Paul Kershner **************************************** **************************************** **************************************** **************************************** **************************************** **************************************** **************************************** **************************************** ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1768 **************************