From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Nov 12 13:38:31 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, November 12 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1790 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Various re: digest #1789 fsj: Fuel Symptoms fsj: Re: the Eagle has landed... :) fsj: brakes again....'power brake booster?' Re: fsj: brakes fsj: Re: one person brake bleeders fsj: Re: odor removal fsj: Re: was amsoil 30... fsj: Re: brakes... fsj: Golden Eagle update... fsj: Re: brakes... fsj: Re: brakes... fsj: Re: brakes... Re: fsj: Battery recommendations? fsj: Re: the Eagle has landed... :) fsj: Re: brakes... fsj: Re: the Eagle has landed... :) FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 13:02:48 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: Various re: digest #1789 Hi, Brakes: believe at first, your front master cylinder portion was out, then the back portion went out. Result -> no brakes. Strongly suggest you replace the master cylinder and bleed, don't replace the booster yet. This is the low cost/highest impact approach. Replacing as much brake fluid as possible is not a bad thing. 2nd: xfer Cases Thanks Mr. Heisey, very informative. I always thought the NP229 and NP231 had essentially the same case. guess not. Where does the NP208 fit in this, or should I be quiet? - - Landon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 13:11:46 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: Fuel Symptoms This started at Ouray - symptoms like vapor lock? '89 GW, stock fuel system, 156K miles. Low speeds, little air movement under the hood, high temperatures. My thermostat had been keeping the truck hot, somewhere around the 200 degree mark. Truck stalled climbing Engineer Pass, and we poured water on the fuel pump, and it started back up, and we were on our way(or ouray). Also did this on California Gulch. But on the highway, and even in traffic, no problems. After I got back, we've had instances of stalling after filling the tank after driving a distance. So I figured the high temps underhood due to the thermostat problem were cooking the fuel in the line. We had to wait 20 minutes or so for it to cool down. I replaced the thermostat on Saturday, and got stuck in front of Hooters on Sunday. Great place to take my two year old son to call my wife, this time it took 40 minutes, anyway....replaced the fuel pump and filter and fuel line feeding/returning at the pump. Are these symptoms of a slowly retiring fuel pump? Also, there is probably air seepage at the joint where the fuel tank sender is clamped to the tank. Thanks for your thoughts. - - Landon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:27:26 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: the Eagle has landed... :) At 12:15 PM 11/11/2002 -0800, ken wetherall wrote: >whats ur technique for repair? mine needs some attention, its not holed but >baddly pitted > > > > > I'll finish patching the floor pan (roof leaked > > and rusted the floor, > >Ken Wetherall Concord CA. wire brush it, vacuum it, spray on a rust converting primer that creates a polymer, I think Duro Extend is one that works ok, or some folks use POR-15. For this floor new sheet metal was screwed in place... I've used old license plates and pieces of scrap sheet metal, bondo and fiberglass even... then paint, undercoat and carpet... john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:09:11 -0600 From: "John Pettit" Subject: fsj: brakes again....'power brake booster?' Hey again, I replaced the Master Cylinder on the Jeep and now the brakes build up pressure when the car is off, but when I turn the car on, the brakes go all the way to the floor and don't build up pressure at all. Is this definitely the Power Brake Booster? Thanks!! John P. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:32:09 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: brakes A: When you pull your rear drums off, you will find either they are way out of adjustment or fallen apart. Now comes the fun part. If they were just way out of adjustment, then when you were pushing the pedal way down you ruined the master by scrubbing the seals across the centering bolt that keeps the primary piston in place. I'm telling you this so that if you replace the master (the booster can be torn inside by going down too far as well) you won't push the pedal too far when bleeding the brakes. This is assuming you checked the fluid level? Most likely 1 half of the brake system went haywire (front pad disintegrated or rear shoes went out of adjust/fell apart) When this happens, you can figure out which is causing the problem, and put a CLEAN (totally grease free) penny nail in the line at the master in the side that has problems and put the line back on. This will often give you temporary brakes to get home on. CAUTION! You will likely have less than 1/2 your braking power and they will be easy to lockup and slide causing steering troubles on dry pavement. I wonder if your brake line to the back rotted through? From: "John Pettit" Subject: fsj: brakes Hello there. I recently bought an '81 Wagoneer that's in great running condition (except for the brakes) I need some help getting to the root of the problem: Two Weeks Ago: The brakes went down pretty far to the floor, but still stopped the car - and I wasn't too concerned about it. Then, eventually, they went all the way down and it didn't stop it at all. Then, the pressure seemed to build back up or something, and they worked again, but very unpredictable. They make somewhat of a hissing noise when you pump them. I was told it was probably the power brake booster. So I bought one - it should be in Monday. Then - I let the car sit for a few days. Today: I was driving the Jeep - trying to go mid-night mudding & the brakes were about the same - until halfway into the trip. Then, before we got off road at all - they went completely out - and I could push them all the way to the floor. Thankfully, we were on a long straight stretch without any traffic, and we eventually stopped. Then, I drove home at about 5MPH the whole way. The brakes never started working again, and even the emergency brake doesn't work. To make a long story short, I stopped by hitting my garage at home. Please help if you can!! Thanks, John Pettit p.s. that's me in the middle of the picture.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 13:49:53 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: one person brake bleeders At 09:26 PM 11/11/2002 +0000, FSJ-List-at-yahoogroups.com wrote: >Lindel..Are those one man brake "thingies" usefull on 82 J's and if so what >are they officially called, where do you get them, about what do they cost, >do you install them and leave them on or are they more like a tool you use >and then remove? Not familiar with them. >Thanks >Frank in Texas You can do the same thing with a glass jar filled with brake fluid, this is an old mechanic's trick. The tools you can buy have a check valve in them, but I always put 'em in a jar of brake fluid anyway. :) works great, and a worthwhile investment. watch the jar when on bubbles come out you're done, tighten the fitting and move on. Sure beats having to have the "assistant" tighten and loosen the bleeder screws. :) one other thing, the combination valve on some of the FSJ's need to be dealt with. Can't remember the details but you won't get a good bleeding if you don't disengage it's "bypass" feature. I created a tool to clamp this thing, I may have pictures on my website in http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech can't remember where I put 'em... ;) Also, if you install a new master cylinder, bench bleed the unit before installing it. I wait until I've got the new unit fully bled before disconnecting the old one, swap it out right away and have yet to have to bleed a system when installing a new master cylinder. :) Some master cylinders come with plastic hoses, you connect them and put them in the resvr. Keep pumping until there are no air bubbles. Another method is to plug the holes and keep pushing the plunger in until there are no air bubbles in the bowl and it's really hard to push the plunger. I like the hose method, but both work john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:32:29 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: odor removal never heard of "Ozium", but when I had a recent mold (bad smell) problem in one of my jeeps (imagine that, eh?) a friend who has run a couple of car dealerships told me to use "Febreeze". No fragrance, no stain and the smell went away, very happy... :) It worked. Amazing stuff, one of the many secrets of the used car underworld... and it works better then sawdust in the rear end too... rofl... btw, my best friend from HS is a programmer for Walgreens... these stores are sprouting up all over out here... I suggested that he come out to test the s/w at some of their new branches... he only laughed... indicating there wasn't much chance of that happening. :) john At 10:07 AM 11/10/2002 +0000, FSJ-List-at-yahoogroups.com wrote: >From: "Jim B" >A: At my store for one! CSK (Checker's Schuck's or Kragen) I assume the >other parts stores and most Wally worlds have it too. > From: "Frank Donnelly" >Subject: Re: smoke odor >Where do you buy Ozium BTW? >Frank in Texas - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/Filter_INFORMATION/air_filter-1.jpg http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/Filter_INFORMATION/air_filter-2.jpg SJ Jeeps: 360/401: TS-23 258: TS-12 retail $21.50 XJ Jeeps: 4.0L/2.5L('87 and up): TS-29 retail $29.95 WJ Jeeps: 4.7L: TS-104 retail $47.50 DieselBenz: typical S1118 or S1680 retail $32.50 or $39.85 http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/ order 1-800-956-5695 cust# 283461 Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:46:44 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: was amsoil 30... At 10:07 AM 11/10/2002 +0000, FSJ-List-at-yahoogroups.com wrote: > From: "Jacques Burgalat" >Subject: Re: Re: Amsoil 30 oil >Snohomish, WA ??? And I thought I'd seen it all when I had to drive through >Spuds to get to the canoe trail in Fruitville (FL). I've definitely gotta >get out more... BTW, what's so special about Q-trac fluid (aside from >it's apparent rarity) that makes it so expensive? >Jacques B. it's designed for the "friction cones" in the Borg Warner QT... not sure what it is, saw a thread on the list earlier saying it was 30W oil with friction modifier... but considering the scarcity of parts I'd buy the right fluid instead of saving a couple of bucks. :) Snohomish, hey, that's pretty normal, it's all the other cities out here that are interesting: Squim, Puyallup, Chehalis, Duvall, Tacoma, Hoquiam, Toppenish, Yakima, Cle Elum, Oso, Pe Ell, Boisfort, Clallam Bay, Poulsbo, Enumclaw, Issaquah, Startup, Whidbey, Chelan, Othello, Pasco, Ephrata, Skykomish, Toutle, Selah, Omak, Sedro Wooley, Stehekin, Methow, Zillah, Kalama, the list goes on... ...and of course there is that place where the name of the city is normal but the folks that work there are of the evil empire... the bug laden refuge of the Redmondians... of which many worldwide pay homage... the leader of this merciless pack of blue screen wielding varmits holes up on the shores of Lake Washington, amazingly near one of the floating concrete bridges... you wonder why the richest man in the world would live within earshot of one of the busiest roadways in the world... the airport shuttle busses refuse to use these bridges for fear of being stuck in traffic on them... :) :) john meister - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com/UNIX from Snohomish, Washington reminding you not to leave life without Jesus. need a choice of tools? try: http://www.sun.com/staroffice/ ============================================================================= Microsoft Certified Professionals are to the computing industry what McDonald Certified Food Specialists are to gourmet restaurants. Michael Bacarella 3/15/2000 (as seen on http://www.slashdot.com/ ) ============================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:03:40 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: brakes... wow, that's a weird one... Ok, you could be on to something with the power brake booster though... I'm thinking check valve problem.... but try this. Disconnect and plug up the power brake vacuum line on both ends. Then see what happens... besides not having power brakes that is. IF the brakes are normal then the master cylinder and brakes are fine and it's either the check valve or the booster itself. If it still acts weird, might consider an exorcism... ;) or wait to see if jim blair can add something beyond the check valve... BTW, does it idle ok? everything else work? any modifications? john At 04:52 PM 11/11/2002 -0600, John Pettit wrote: >John - >I suppose that you received my FSJ email, but I really need some >help....Here is the email that I sent: >Hey again, >I replaced the Master Cylinder on the Jeep and now the brakes build up >pressure when the car is off, but when I turn the car on, the brakes go all >the way to the floor and don't build up pressure at all. > >Is this definitely the Power Brake Booster? > >(((((Basically, the brakes are building up pressure when I have the car off, >but they ALL the way to the floor and build up no pressure when the car is >on))))) > >thanks!!!!! >john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:29:17 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Golden Eagle update... my son just told me I'm keeping the Golden Eagle... rofl... he thinks it's awesome... I worry about him sometimes... but he said he'd be willing to get rid of his '62 Galaxie for me to keep it... (too many vehicles we have here... we're both afflicted with the same interests it seems... ;) john - ----------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html '83 J10 stepside (SJ) - http://wagoneers.com/SuperDawg '87 Cherokee Pioneer (XJ) - http://wagoneers.com/XJ/rigs/johns-87 238K! '99 Grand Cherokee Ltd (WJ) - http://wagoneers.com/WJ '67 J-100 Panel (SJ) - http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/johns-67-Panel/ '77 Cherokee (SJ) - http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/marks-77-cherokee (son's) '79 Cherokee (SJ) - http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/GoldenEagle/ '76 Datsun 280Z - http://www.wagoneers.com/tmp/280Z/ (for sale) '62 Ford Galaxy - son's "new" car '75 Jeep J10 - trailer... '54 Chevy box... almost a trailer... (for sale) Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:24:11 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: brakes... At 06:12 PM 11/11/2002 -0600, John Pettit wrote: >John - >Hey - I disconnected the vacuum line and the brakes worked fine while the >car was on and off. So, that eliminates the brakes themselves and the >master cylinder. I read your other post... be careful... do you have a good brake pedal with the booster disconnected? >The Jeep was idling fine, so do you think it could still be the check >valve?? Or, do you think that it is definitely the Power Booster?? I hate >to put the Booster on - because then I don't think I can take it back if >that's not what it was.... >john Hard to say... what'd other folks say on the list? I've never had a problem like what you're experiencing, hard to tell for sure. john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:54:06 -0600 From: "John Pettit" Subject: fsj: Re: brakes... Nobody's really said much.... I have a good pedal while the booster is disconnected, but I still have to push pretty hard to get the Jeep to stop, but it definitely doesn't go down to the floor. I know that I don't have the brakes bled very well at all, but I wouldn't think that would cause it to have different pressure while on/off.... thanks again, john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:58:46 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: brakes... On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, John Pettit wrote: >-->Nobody's really said much.... >--> >-->I have a good pedal while the booster is disconnected, but I still have to >-->push pretty hard to get the Jeep to stop, but it definitely doesn't go down >-->to the floor. I know that I don't have the brakes bled very well at all, >-->but I wouldn't think that would cause it to have different pressure while >-->on/off.... try bleeding the brakes (engine off) and then driving it with the booster vacuum removed... carefully... but first make sure your emergency/parking brakes work... maybe pull the rear drums and look for leaking brake fluid back there... don't drive it if you see fluid in the backing plate/drum area, replace those wheel cylinders... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:43:37 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: fsj: Battery recommendations? On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 10:46:15PM -0600, JeepNut wrote: > Anyone care to offer an opinion? > I've got no Schucks, PepBoys, Kragen or Checker 'round here. > AutoZone, NAPA, CarQuest, about all that I know of around here. > Don't want another Champion like I bought already at Sam's. > Wonder if Sear's DieHards are any good any more? > WalMart sell a good battery? > ....anybody have particularly good experience with a battery? > Am needing a good strong one for an SJ that I'm in the process of > adding to my collection! > List member John P's '87 is moving to Memphis... Right now, I run price costco specials in both of my jeeps - the huge marine deep cycle ones. As far as price goes, they're hard to beat, and IF they ever go dead (haven't yet), I can just jump them and they happily come back to life. In the cars I usually run either an interstate, a die-hard, or a price costco battery. None have given me any problems. Lots of people I know swear by optimas, but I don't drive my jeeps often enough to keep a battery happy, and I try to not get into situations where a dry cell is needed :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 74 Cherokee 2 door (258 1bbl, T15, D20, open 3.54 d44's) 77 Cherokee 4 door S (401 4bbl, TH400, BW QT, open 3.54 d44's) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:26:39 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: the Eagle has landed... :) At 06:27 PM 11/11/2002 -0800, Kenneth Wetherall wrote: >bondo >now ur talkin ;) > >i saw a kit from hurculiner for 90$ at the auto store. it will do >one >6' truck bed...this product any good for an undercoat? It's ok, pretty thin though... if you've got a compressor you're better off to go to a auto body / paint supply store and buy the stuff directly and buy a cheap sprayer... you'll get better coverage at about the same price... :) john >Ken Wetherall >Concord, CA. USA > > > > > wire brush it, vacuum it, spray on a rust converting primer > > that creates a polymer, I think Duro Extend is one that works >ok, > > or some folks use POR-15. > > > > For this floor new sheet metal was screwed in place... I've used > > old license plates and pieces of scrap sheet metal, bondo and > > fiberglass even... then paint, undercoat and carpet... > > > > john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:28:16 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: brakes... At 09:05 PM 11/11/2002 -0600, John Pettit wrote: >john - >i bled the brakes, and it was a little better - but not really. The pedal >is VERY stiff, but it definitely stops the car. The brakes even stop the >car when the car is on now - but they go ALL the way to the floor. There is >no trace of fluid leaking around the wheels, etc... Do you know what the >symptoms would be if a brake booster went completely out? It seems like >that's what it is, but I don't think I should try to change it out. >Thanks! >john Ok, knowing that the pedal sinks to the floor and the other symptoms you've got I'd say the master cylinder is the problem. It's hard to troubleshoot when I've only got bits and pieces of info. :) You really should consider taking an elective class in automotive mechanics. :) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:38:01 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: the Eagle has landed... :) At 08:35 PM 11/11/2002 -0800, Kenneth Wetherall wrote: >just been to hurcs web site...cant use this stuff over rust :( >iv power wire-brushed the floor pan to get rid of the loose rust, >but unless i grind the entire pan >im not gonna get rid of all the rust. > >so whats ur brand of 'rust converting primer'? I've used Duro Extend. I think that's the stuff... works well. There are a number of brands out there... converts rust into a polymer, black... john >Ken Wetherall >Concord, CA. USA > > > It's ok, pretty thin though... if you've got a compressor you're > > better off to go to a auto body / paint supply store and buy > > the stuff directly and buy a cheap sprayer... you'll get better > > coverage at about the same price... :) > > > > john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1790 **************************