From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Dec 12 16:52:54 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, December 12 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1811 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: Panhard bars fsj: Re: Re: panhard bars fsj: Re: good to hear from you! fsj: Re: Re: panhard bars fsj: RE: solenoid - jeep won't start fsj: RE: RE: solenoid - jeep won't start Re: fsj: solenoid - jeep won't start Re: fsj: solenoid - jeep won't start Re: fsj: Re: 1981 Jeep Wagoneer Questions? fsj: Re: [none] fsj: Re: Re: panhard bars fsj: Re: Panhard bars and FSJ rollovers? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:25:50 -0800 From: "Machinedoc" Subject: fsj: Re: Panhard bars Hi Guy's, Yes Rocky has these. All the GW's 86 and later have front and rear track bars. The 85' had it in the front, but I don't recall seeing any brackets for it in the rear. The purpose for these things, for those enquiring minds that want to know, is axle location and stability. Back in the old days (Before 4 link set-ups became popular in full bodied cars) of drag racing Panhard bars were used for stability. If a car got sideways going down the track at high speeds the leaf springs flexed sideways allowing the center of gravity to change and allowing the car to start doing a barrel roll down the track. As coil spring and trailing arm suspensions became popular the panhard bar was used to maintain axle location under lateral loading conditions. (Sideways force- getting sideways, Diagonal climbing, making turns, being blown by gusty winds and large trucks etc.) The use in our trusty FSJ's is mainly for comfort and for safety. These things help our FSJ's to stay upright (Unlike Exploders) should they encounter a flat tire at speeds, among other situations. Vehicles riding on 4 leaf springs tend to ride like trucks. they tend to sway more than a normal car, even with sway bars. That is because springs flex side to side as well as up and down. People that buy luxury vehicles for on-road (And aren't our GW's supposed to be luxury?) use don't like the impression of instability, nor do they like to ride like a truck just for the impression of stability. So what was the solution? Softer springs and track bars. This helps remove that feeling of "4x4 vehicles handle differently than normal vehicles" that most of us have learned to live with. Curtis - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" To: "Jim B" Cc: ; ; "Paul Kershner" Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 9:47 PM Subject: Re: panhard bars > At 08:00 PM 12/10/2002 -0800, Jim B wrote: > >A: In '82 they were still calling the full size Wagoneers. BTW, There was > >a slight suspension change in '84. The rear spring mounts were moved up > >slightly, causing a minimum 1" drop in the suspension (to go with the > >Panhard rear bars) > > I thought it was 86 that they went to the panhard bars... not > sure... I haven't seen too many later model FSJs... the '85 I parted > MAY have had one in the front, but not the rear... if memory serves correct. > Curtis will correct me... of course I could look at the pictures of parting > it out too... ;) > > btw, they call them track bars in the Jeep world... not sure why they > decided to use them with leaf springs. In the XJ world they're responsible > for the "wobble o' death". > > Hey, Paul, does that '84 deerslayer of yours have panhard bars? > Curtis, does rocky have 'em? (should he's an '86, right? ;) > > john > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:57:44 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Re: panhard bars no, I think that the bushings wear out and then they just rattle around under there... side to side flex ain't that big of a deal with leaf springs. :) john At 03:49 PM 12/11/2002 -0800, Machinedoc wrote: >The clunking is when the track bar bushings are worn out and the springs are >allowed to flex side to side causing metal to contact metal. > >Curtis > > > At 10:00 PM 12/10/2002 -0800, Paul and Megan Kershner wrote: > > >Whatsa panhard bar or trackbar? > > > > > >Paul Kershner > > > > panhard or track bars mount to the frame on one side and the axle on the > > other. Typically they'll mount to the driver's side frame and > > then attach to the axle down by the spring perch on the passenger side. > > > > They are important for coil springs as they keep things lined up. I've > > had it explained to me why they improve handling or ride with leaf >springs, > > but all it has done is create an extra clunking sound that friends with > > late model GW's wonder about. :) > > > > john > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:03:22 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: good to hear from you! Tom, Good to hear from you. Ok, so I can't say everyone. ;) john At 12:48 AM 12/12/2002 +0000, fsj-digest wrote: >Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:56:50 -0800 (PST) >From: Thomas Anhalt >Subject: fsj: Re: John Sings The Jaacobs Blues Again > >I've got a Jacob's Omnipak in my '81 Cherokee that has >been going strong for over 6 years. > >Small sample size, I know....but now you can't say >that EVERYONE has problems.....;-) > >Tom Anhalt >'81 Cherokee Laredo >Santa Barbara, CA - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:14:22 -0800 From: "Machinedoc" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: panhard bars I beg to differ. :) You only need about an inch or less of side to side flex to get that clunk. I'll bet your capable of at least that much side to side play just making a slow turn. ;) Curtis - ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 3:57 PM Subject: Re: Re: panhard bars > > no, I think that the bushings wear out and then they > just rattle around under there... side to side flex > ain't that big of a deal with leaf springs. :) > > john > > At 03:49 PM 12/11/2002 -0800, Machinedoc wrote: > >The clunking is when the track bar bushings are worn out and the springs are > >allowed to flex side to side causing metal to contact metal. > > > >Curtis > > > > > At 10:00 PM 12/10/2002 -0800, Paul and Megan Kershner wrote: > > > >Whatsa panhard bar or trackbar? > > > > > > > >Paul Kershner > > > > > > panhard or track bars mount to the frame on one side and the axle on the > > > other. Typically they'll mount to the driver's side frame and > > > then attach to the axle down by the spring perch on the passenger side. > > > > > > They are important for coil springs as they keep things lined up. I've > > > had it explained to me why they improve handling or ride with leaf > >springs, > > > but all it has done is create an extra clunking sound that friends with > > > late model GW's wonder about. :) > > > > > > john > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > > > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > > > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:13:16 -0800 From: Clark Novak Subject: fsj: RE: solenoid - jeep won't start John, what do you mean by "doesn't start" -- do you mean it cranks but won't fire, or the solenoid energizes but the starter doesn't turn, or nothing happens when you put the key in "start" position? All of these have different causes. Clark Novak Veteran of the GW Wars San Diego > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:29:43 -0600 > From: "John Pettit" > Subject: fsj: solenoid - jeep won't start > > I was wondering why my Wagoneer doesn't start - even though I've > put on a new > solenoid.... > > It starts right up when I bypass the solenoid, but I've tried > replacing them > and it still doesn't start... > > The battery is fine and the starter is too. I was wondering if > there were any > other things to check... > > Thanks! > > John P. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:55:53 -0800 From: Clark Novak Subject: fsj: RE: RE: solenoid - jeep won't start John, it sounds like you have an ignition switch that's either maladjusted or gone bad. This is not the keyswitch in the steering column; it's the actual electrical switch that lives further down the column, under the dash. There is a rod that connects the two, and if it's out of adjustment, the ignition switch may not go into the proper position when you turn the key to "start." To test this, you'll need to hook a voltmeter to the wires that go to the solenoid ("starter relay" in Ford lingo) and watch the reading as you turn the key. If you get a voltage spike when you turn the key to "start," your ignition switch is OK; if you don't get that jump, the switch is either out of adjustment or gone bad. You get get a replacement switch at NAPA for about $10. Cheers, Clark Novak Survivor, Grand Wag, San Diego > -----Original Message----- > From: John Pettit [mailto:john-at-johnboyproductions.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 5:14 PM > To: Clark Novak > Subject: Re: RE: solenoid - jeep won't start > > > Thanks for writing... > > It doesn't start to crank at all - but the lights don't go out when I turn > the key. It cranks right up when I jump the solenoid, but nothing happens > when I try to turn the key.... > > is that enough info?? > > thanks, > > John P ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 02:06:10 +0000 From: "John Bushnell" Subject: Re: fsj: solenoid - jeep won't start If you have an automatic transmission, check the transmission safety switch. I don't have a FSJ, but the solinoid should be the same... If so, it connects to the bottom of the solinoid and you can simply ground it to see if bypassing the switch solves the problem. I had this problem once. >From: "John Pettit" >Reply-To: "John Pettit" >To: >Subject: fsj: solenoid - jeep won't start >Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:29:43 -0600 > >I was wondering why my Wagoneer doesn't start - even though I've put on a >new >solenoid.... > >It starts right up when I bypass the solenoid, but I've tried replacing >them >and it still doesn't start... > >The battery is fine and the starter is too. I was wondering if there were >any >other things to check... > >Thanks! > >John P. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 2002 19:04:04 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: solenoid - jeep won't start Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:04:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A: What year? Does it crank, but not start? If not, then the neutral safety switch may have come unplugged or it's broken (on the Dodge style trannies, the plastic piece inside the pan on top of the valve body can fall apart causing this problem. See if the backup lights come on it drive. That's a dead giveaway!) There is a ground wire that attaches to the bottom of the solenoid that only works when you are in park or neutral (grounding this wire can save you opening the hood to start it all the time, but you have to be careful you don't start in gear!) The last item may be the ignition slider switch on the steering column (especially if you have sloppy tilt steering) Quick test of that is turn the key to start, then wiggle the switch at the same time) Also try starting in neutral. From: "John Pettit" Subject: fsj: solenoid - jeep won't start I was wondering why my Wagoneer doesn't start - even though I've put on a new solenoid.... It starts right up when I bypass the solenoid, but I've tried replacing them and it still doesn't start... The battery is fine and the starter is too. I was wondering if there were any other things to check... Thanks! John P. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 2002 19:44:54 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 1981 Jeep Wagoneer Questions? Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:44:53 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed From: john At 09:23 PM 12/10/2002 -0700, Mark Shepherd wrote: I have an 1981 Jeep Wagon - I have already replaced the stock 360 with a built 401 edelbrock performer intake, blue printed 4-bbl carb, rv style cam, the stock distributor was removed and replaced with an MSD. Anyway now that the engine is capable of lots of power I need to work on the tranny & axels. > I read that you were contemplating shifting from the TF727 to a >TH700r4 - where did you find the adapters to go from a AMC motor to the >tranny and then from it to the QuadraTrac? John wrote: Actually I'm switching my 258 for a 4.0L with the Aisin Warner 4 speed Automatic. A: I'm doing similar, but my motor will be a 289 cu in inline six stroker! AW4, NV241OR and D44 front with 4.10 and D60-2 rear with Moser axles and 6 bolt wheels (18" aftermarket rims with Metric equivalent to 38"/12.5/18 BFG tires that just came available) As you can guess, my brakes are getting modified to handle it too! John wrote: The 401 will mate up to the Aisin Warner ok, possibly with a few minor mods. A: You would have to use a '91 or newer AW4, the 6 cyl 4.0L starter beefed up, and flexplate rebalanced to fit the 401 unless you had it zero balanced during rebuild (which would have been a smart thing. I feel it's worth the extra $500 I put into my stroker for longevity) John wrote: However, you'll need a computer to control it... or you could do a manual switch box to do it. A: A throttle position switch would also have to be added to the carb to help the computer automatically control the box. John wrote: A lot of trouble... I think the AW4 would hold up to the 401, but it might be asking a lot of it. :) I've got one out in the drive that has 240,000 miles on the original tranny... :) running 31's on it, 3.54 gears... it's a bit sluggish... :) A: Lexus uses the same trans with some heavier duty mods with their V8 SUV (same as the Tundra) and many have 100,000 miles without trans trouble yet! BTW, speaking of sluggish off the line, I'm now running 32" tires on my Comanche now with a 180,000 mile 4 cyl and 5 speed with 4.10! It still runs fine, but power drops considerably with a load on it. John wrote: If you go with the 700R4 you'll need an adapter to make it so. Not cheap. A: http://www.advancedadaptors.com makes them (Like John said, not cheap!) John wrote: To get my AW4 to mate to my NP219 I paid $65 for a chunk of metal then another $255 to get it machined... dumb, dumb, dumb. I could have had an NP242 and added a Slip Yoke Eliminator to mate to my driveshafts... It was one of those minor tactical errors. Hopefully we won't make any more of them. A: If you had a 727 ('80 and newer) you could also go with a NP241 OR (like mine) with 4:1 low range, capable of handling 800 ft/lbs of torque from an '03 Wrangler Rubicon (these are soon to be available aftermarket for -at-$3000. I saw one for sale already for $3500) The guys at New Venture gear didn't think the NP242 could handle high power. (later model NV242 HD can though! That's what the Hummers run. Different spline count and wider drive chain than earlier ones) If anyone close to me has a Jeep 727 or 998 out that can be used to test fit to the NV241, let me know! > I have thought about changing the >stock axle gears from 2.73 to 3.54 >then >shifting to a 31.5 tire, but my fear has >been the combination would >push the rpms >to an high point on the interstate - there >for the .74 >ratio of the 4th gear in the >th700r4 is very appealing. A: Bigger tires to make the ratio match is a nice thing too! (this from a guy that went from 28.8" tires and 2.72 gears with 110 HP to 38" tires, 4.10 gears and -at-250 HP inline six that's slowwwwly being assembled the right way!) > Also, any suggestions for the axles - keep origonal just change the >gears & carrier or total axle swap? John wrote: 32" tires with the 3.54's would put you around 2,250 rpm at 60mph. http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/tech/GEARING/355gears.html A: I have a pair of (they fit '79 or older pickup or newer if you convert a GM NP208 to fit the 727) Dana 44s with 4.10 (rear one has a trackloc that needs new spider gears) for $200 the pair. ($100 more gets you a D44 SOA to fit the same, but with 3.08 gears and '84 J10 hubs and knuckles) Also check out the calculator on http://www.4lo.com for tire gear combos. With a 999 lockup, Elmo revved -at-1700 RPM at 70 mph with the same tires and gears. (it felt like overdrive) Since you have the TH400 and RH drop though, this isn't an easy option. Same goes with the AW4 (I can give a list of what's needed to make that work though) John wrote: (old blue with 235's, 2.72's would tach about 1,700 at 60mph, if memory serves correctly... ) You're only a day's drive from me, I just went to Rapid City and stopped in Butte on the way there. :) Easy 7 to 8 hr drive to Helena. Shoot, I drove from Great Falls, through Glacier and still made it home the same day. :) A: I'm at the other end of Seattle from John (the south end of the I-405 and I-5) > Thanks for the assistance you may have to offer in advance. Cheers, >Mark Shepherd East Helena, Montana _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 2002 19:50:16 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: Re: [none] Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:50:15 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A: On that note, I would like to point out that the '71 and older 360s DO have a different crank flange (they were built for Borg Warner automatics and require a special flange adapter to bolt to the TH400 or 727. Learnt this one the hardway a long time ago!) From: Tesar Landon-r16884 I would have a hard time supporting this if someone tried to tell me early 360s and late 360s are not interchangeable in FSJs because there is a bushing on the crankshaft of one of them. - - - Landon ================================ "when you swap out stock parts to make something work, even if it's one bolt, you've converted it... it's NOT a simple drop in, now is it? :) A little filing, a little bolting, a little welding, a big flippin' hammer and you can just about make anything work... oh yeah, might need to use the handyman's secret weapon too... ;)" _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:12:33 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Re: panhard bars At 04:14 PM 12/11/2002 -0800, Machinedoc wrote: >I beg to differ. :) You only need about an inch or less of side to side >flex to get that clunk. I'll bet your capable of at least that much side to >side play just making a slow turn. ;) I never do slow turns though... ;) Yeah, I agree with you, but I don't agree that the GW's need the Panhard bars. Sway bars I can see, but not the track bars. Someone explained it to me that it helps the ride... not sure how. Care to take a shot at explaining the benefits? :) Does it limit articulation? If it helps the ride but doesn't hurt articulation then maybe we should include 'em on SuperDawg... ;) rofl.... ;) john >Curtis > >----- Original Message ----- >Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 3:57 PM >Subject: Re: Re: panhard bars > > > > > > no, I think that the bushings wear out and then they > > just rattle around under there... side to side flex > > ain't that big of a deal with leaf springs. :) > > > > john > > > > At 03:49 PM 12/11/2002 -0800, Machinedoc wrote: > > >The clunking is when the track bar bushings are worn out and the springs >are > > >allowed to flex side to side causing metal to contact metal. > > > > > >Curtis > > > > > > > At 10:00 PM 12/10/2002 -0800, Paul and Megan Kershner wrote: > > > > >Whatsa panhard bar or trackbar? > > > > > > > > > >Paul Kershner > > > > > > > > panhard or track bars mount to the frame on one side and the axle on >the > > > > other. Typically they'll mount to the driver's side frame and > > > > then attach to the axle down by the spring perch on the passenger >side. > > > > > > > > They are important for coil springs as they keep things lined up. >I've > > > > had it explained to me why they improve handling or ride with leaf > > >springs, > > > > but all it has done is create an extra clunking sound that friends >with > > > > late model GW's wonder about. :) > > > > > > > > john > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > > > > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > > > > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:18:04 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Panhard bars and FSJ rollovers? good explanation.... but I can't see the reason for them on the GWs, expect of course for the use of softer springs in the later models... but even then... ...my old '67 Wagoneer with no sway bar would have taken the help of two blowouts and a forklift to roll... :) Which brings me to the thought of how many Wagoneers, Cherokees and J10's have ever rolled? I've heard of a few, one at Ouray, the guy went off the road and went down a mountain... right? One up in Canada where a mountain road gave way, but that's about all I can think of right now. I may have seen one with some roof damage in the rear in a salvage lot once. I'm curious especially about the J10's, especially after having owned a Dodge 4x4 3/4t that had been rolled, and seeing two big Dodge 4x4's either spin out or on their side on the interstate. Anyone know of any? Let's here the stories. :) john At 04:25 PM 12/11/2002 -0800, Machinedoc wrote: >To: "john" >Cc: >Subject: Re: Panhard bars > >Hi Guy's, > >Yes Rocky has these. All the GW's 86 and later have front and rear track >bars. The 85' had it in the front, but I don't recall seeing any brackets >for it in the rear. >The purpose for these things, for those enquiring minds that want to know, >is axle location and stability. >Back in the old days (Before 4 link set-ups became popular in full bodied >cars) of drag racing Panhard bars were used for stability. If a car got >sideways going down the track at high speeds the leaf springs flexed >sideways allowing the center of gravity to change and allowing the car to >start doing a barrel roll down the track. As coil spring and trailing arm >suspensions became popular the panhard bar was used to maintain axle >location under lateral loading conditions. (Sideways force- getting >sideways, Diagonal climbing, making turns, being blown by gusty winds and >large trucks etc.) >The use in our trusty FSJ's is mainly for comfort and for safety. These >things help our FSJ's to stay upright (Unlike Exploders) should they >encounter a flat tire at speeds, among other situations. Vehicles riding on >4 leaf springs tend to ride like trucks. they tend to sway more than a >normal car, even with sway bars. That is because springs flex side to side >as well as up and down. People that buy luxury vehicles for on-road (And >aren't our GW's supposed to be luxury?) use don't like the impression of >instability, nor do they like to ride like a truck just for the impression >of stability. So what was the solution? Softer springs and track bars. >This helps remove that feeling of "4x4 vehicles handle differently than >normal vehicles" that most of us have learned to live with. > >Curtis - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1811 **************************