From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Dec 14 22:18:29 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, December 14 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1813 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: the ultimate present for a real Jeeper? Re: fsj: the ultimate present for a real Jeeper? fsj: Re: [none] fsj: '68 Jeep 327 for sale (In Seattle) fsj: RE: Re: [FSJ-List] Digest Number 1887 fsj: more panhard bars stuff fsj: Liberty woes fsj: Re: Xfer cases... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Dec 2002 23:24:43 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: the ultimate present for a real Jeeper? Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:24:42 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Did someone tell the guys at www.willysoverland.com about this? They bought what was left of the company including the name rights! _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:27:26 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: the ultimate present for a real Jeeper? those stocks only have historical value... I'm sure they already have some... ;) john At 11:24 PM 12/12/2002 -0800, Jim B wrote: >Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:24:42 -0800 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >Did someone tell the guys at www.willysoverland.com about this? They bought >what was left of the company including the name rights! > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 2002 23:18:37 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: Re: [none] Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:18:36 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A: By that line of reasoning then unbolting a bracket/mount/yoke/etc and swapping it with the old during a change-out should NOT be considered a conversion! (This probably wouldn't have been as sneaky if Landon hadn't lost the subject line!) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #1810 At 12:48 AM 12/12/2002 +0000, fsj-digest wrote: >From: Tesar Landon-r16884 > >I would have a hard time supporting this >if someone tried to tell me early >360s and >late 360s are not interchangeable in FSJs >because there is a >bushing on the >crankshaft of one of them. the bushing is the spacer for the TH400... no difference otherwise... _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 02:43:49 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: '68 Jeep 327 for sale (In Seattle) First $300 obo takes it along with T-15 (3 speed std) and Dana 20. My son pulled it out of a good running, but very body rotted '68 Wag (body sagged when he went offroading because of rusty floors due to missing windshield) He was going to put it into an '88 Grand Wagoneer, but the crossover parts were too expensive to come by, so it's getting a 4.0L conversion (like my '84 J10) The body is going to be hauled off probably about the time you read this (rear D44 is going to a Jeep CJ7 WT) email me direct at carnuck at hotmail.com (in case the link doesn't show) _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:18:19 +1100 From: "Veijo Phillips" Subject: fsj: RE: Re: [FSJ-List] Digest Number 1887 I'll agree with this one. When it's time to restore the GW I'll definatly be buying a xj for my daily driver. I look at all the other four wheel drives available on the market here and they're all just bulky, heavy gas guzzlers. The XJ is the only car that I have come across that is 4WD, has room to carry what you need but is still a smallish, easy to drive and very reliable, In fact I think the XJ has been rated as one of the top buys in the used 4WD market. I'd love a WJ but i can't justify the $$$$ for a daily driver. The xj's are starting to become quite cheap here in OZ and there were a huge amount imported, so plently of spares. The WJ is still quite new to us and the price of one is still triple the price of an xj. I really do have a thing for my SJ's and will never ber able to get rid of them but like you say when it comes to reliability and economy they just don't cut it. Veijo - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john Sent: Thursday, 12 December 2002 7:01 PM To: FSJ-List-at-yahoogroups.com; FSJ-List-at-yahoogroups.com Subject: fsj: Re: [FSJ-List] Digest Number 1887 At 02:15 AM 12/10/2002 +0000, FSJ-List-at-yahoogroups.com wrote: >OKay, baby Cherokees are good all-around station wagons. I beg to differ. I think the XJ is the best all around Jeep ever built. It off-roads better then most of the other Jeep models in stock trim. It balances on-road with off-road comfort, finesse and control. It's economical. It's reliable. It's safe. It handles well. It's not as nice as a WJ for interstate cruising. It won't hold as much as an SJ. It won't hold up under a lot of off-road use like the bobtails or an SJ will, but the bobtails have so many shortcomings we won't go there. The SJ models have a lot of pluses, ride, balance, cargo hauling, I love 'em, but they are unreliable, uneconomical, and if you're not a mechanic, married to a mechanic or independently wealthy it'll be sitting in your driveway needing something fixed more then you'll be out enjoying it. :) > TJ Wraglers are decent off-roaders. But there was nothing in the >jeep line-up that got even close to filling both niches, and with >introduction of the Liberty as a CHerokee replacement even that was lost. I think the Cherokee filled the niche, which makes it's departure a bad thing. I think Daimler-Chrysler (with an emphasis on Chrysler) is out of their collective minds for not updating the SJ model and for cancelling both the XJ and SJ lines. The liberty reeks of Mercedes influence. It rides nicer then my '99 WJ, is quieter, but handles like it's got four soft tires and broken sway bars, it's ugly as sin, unless you like the toon town look, and is anemic. It just doesn't feel right. I went to Jeep 101 the year they launched the WJ. The TJ was to harsh, uncomfortable, just didn't feel right. The WJ was too big, reminded me of an SJ in a few areas, EXCEPT visibility (if it had "panoscopic" vision it would be perfect!), it didn't feel right except out on the open road... it's steering is too harsh in tight spaces... the XJ felt just right. perfect. It offered a good compromise between the WJ and the TJ. I hope to find a nice '97 and up loaded XJ for daily driving, especially since my '83 J10 doesn't look to be done any time soon... :) >Here's the list of turds for you - >- Dana 30 front disconnect big deal. Out of 8 XJ's I've had ONE problem with the front disconnect... it was my own fault, and all that happened was I broke a shift fork, $20 part, 20 minutes to fix. Trying to do a J-turn in the snow while dropping the clutch and hitting a curb all at the same time doesn't work too well... :) I prefer the disconnect over having to replace the double cardan joints on my later model XJs because the front shaft was spinning all the time, and didn't want to spend $750 for warn hubs. ;) My '87 xj with 240k shifts in and out of 4 wheel drive even at 55mph... I use it to keep from becoming an embarrassing addition to all the accidents on the road to work. :) >- Dana 35 or ChryCo 8.25 rear I've had three XJ's with over 200,000 miles, all on that D35 rear axle, never had a problem with one. My daily driver right now is an '87 XJ with 240,000 miles, 3" of lift and 31x10.5s running the stock 3.54's. Original engine and trans/xfr case and axles... no problems... I've had 21 FSJ's and haven't had one go more then 40,000 miles without needing a tranny or something. :) >- Slip-yoke NP 231 This is only a problem if you have a large lift... when my '88 XJ got t-boned at 50mph the driveshaft came out of the np242, and quite possibly spared damaging the drivetrain... of course it already had 230,000 miles and I didn't even attempt to recover anything... :) However, the slip yoke thing caused me to go for an NP219 in my J10 instead of an NP242. >- XJ body: one wheel on the curb, you can't open the tailgate it's not quite that bad, but the tailgate is fiberglass and if the hinges aren't maintained a bit they can wedge. :) The pins walk out of the hinges... It's still a LOT better then messing with that stupid rear window on the GW's. I have a J10 because I love FSJs but can not deal with that flippin' rear window setup. :) The '97 and up XJ's use a metal tailgate, I would think they have fewer issues. :) fwiw, the Uni-frame construction on the XJ's does suffer from a lot of off-road use. I've seen the control arms ripped off the frame rails... cracks appear on the roof from flexing, and so on. So, yeah, the xj body isn't all that robust, but for moderate wheeling it holds up fine. :) >- ZJ and WJ body: one rear-end, and you won't be able to open >or close tailgate forever that's true of any of the wagons though... The WJ and ZJ have so much plastic on their bumper ends that if you got rear ended it'd be hard to tell if there was any damage... maybe you couldn't close the tailgate because the offending vehicle would still be embedded. ;) > YJ: open channel frame that's like no frame at all. still it's got to be better then what I've seen in Dodge pickups. :) >(In Jeep's defense, the new Quadra-drive setup with D44s all around >is 100% excellent, like no one else.) yeah, but the factory set up the preload incorrectly and everyone is blaming the Dana 44 axle! Mine went bad just outside of the warranty... $650 or so... it's fixed right now. Quadradrive is pretty cool, but I've had just as much success with any Jeep 4x4 system. Quadra-drive uses Quadratrac at the heart of it all, and the veri-lock axles... >I could go on about little bits and pieces here and there, having >owned (and liked) an XJ before, and worked on my friends' XJ, ZJ, and >YJs a number of times. IMO, the recent Land Rovers are the closest >thing ever to a full size jeep, concept and execution-wise. Rovers are ok. They stole a lot of ideas and concept from Jeep. I've got a couple of friends with them. One friend has a '98 or '99 and rode in my tired old '88 XJ and couldn't believe how much power it had... :) His Range Rover had a 4.0L, right? :) The Rover cruises nice on the interstate, but trying to figure out the controls is a lesson in Klingon logic. ;) He has a lot of fun with the suspension, raising and lowering it... One thing I do wish though... is that we'd have the option for Diesel engines in our Jeeps. :) I had a turbo Diesel in my '85 XJ, while underpowered and parts were expensive, it was a blast. :) later, john - ----------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:06:04 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: more panhard bars stuff If the bushings wear out quickly, is this evidence that the bars are doing their job? or just poor bushing material... - - Landon - -================= Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 23:33:11 -0800 From: "Machinedoc" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Re: panhard bars You are right Jim. I just didn't want to get into details of completely worn suspensions, especially since the track bar bushings wear out much faster than spring bushings. Curtis ========== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:08:00 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: Liberty woes Also, I've read reviews that the gas mileage is pretty poor, esp. with the V6. - - Landon ================ The liberty reeks of Mercedes influence. It rides nicer then my '99 WJ, is quieter, but handles like it's got four soft tires and broken sway bars, it's ugly as sin, unless you like the toon town look, and is anemic. It just doesn't feel right. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:06:28 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Xfer cases... looking at the MR244 (june '85) it lists the following: transmissions: AX4 (2wd & 4wd) AX5 (2wd & 4wd) 904 Auto (4wd & 2wd) Transfer cases: Model 207 Model 228 for engines it lists the 2.46L I-4, 2.8L V6 (worst engine ever installed in a jeep), and the 2.1L Turbo Diesel. I know it's confusing to sort out the xfr case/trans on various Jeeps. The Haynes manual for the XJ/MJ shows 228/229/242 and also 207/231. The MR253 (for the SJ) cites other trans/xfr case, see: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/FSJ-trans.html http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Transmissions/SJ-transmissions.html I know they use the NP231 later in the XJ, like '87, but it's behind the Aisin Warner 4 speed automatic. After '87 the Selectrac was the NP242. Personally I could have sworn I saw an NP229 in my '86 xj's and MJ. But that was a few years back... not sure if I resolved anything or not, except what the factory manual said up until '85. But it wouldn't seem to make sense to use the NP229 after the NP228. john At 02:07 AM 12/14/2002 -0800, Jim B wrote: >A: I recall trying to answer this one, but can't recall if it got through or >not. '84 to '86 XJs with automatic came with NP229 or NP228 (Selectrac) and >I have a NP228 for sale from an '86 4 cyl auto XJ with EFI ($200), so this >isn't based on hearsay. (check out john meister's website >http://www.wagoneers.com for more info) > > From: "pmatusov" > > >A: Unless the Jeep is an automatic, that will be a NP207 with 21 splines. > >If it is automatic, then it should be either a NP228, 229 with 23 splines. > >The 208 never came stock in an XJ, BUT if it's automatic, someone may have > >put it in there. (like I will be doing on my MJ when I get an AX-15 to put > >behind my motor) >228 or 229 in an XJ? last time i checked, there weren't major earthquakes in >Washington state lately :) >I heard that some early XJs had 207. >peter - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1813 **************************