From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Jan 24 10:29:15 2003 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, January 24 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1843 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #1842 Engine Trouble fsj: Another oil pressure query fsj: RE: Another oil pressure query fsj: re:engine trouble Re: fsj: Engine Trouble Re: fsj: '85 GW electrical problem - seem like a power surge Re: fsj: engine trouble Re: fsj: NP-229 vacuum diagram Re: fsj: engine trouble Re: fsj: engine trouble fsj: Oil Filters Re: fsj: Oil Filters fsj: Added one to the stable if anyone cares to read about it. Re: fsj: Oil Filters FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:44:12 EST From: Moontanman-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #1842 Engine Trouble In a message dated 1/23/03 12:00:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net writes: > Subject: fsj: engine trouble > > To make a semi-long story short, in my '88 (AMC360), the oil pressure > started gradually dropping a couple weeks ago (thank goodness for a real > gauge and not a dummy light), and it looks like I'll be needing a new > engine. (This one has _just_ under 100Kmi on it, like over 98 or 99K.) I lost oil pressure several years ago, it never came back! Bad oil pressure sending unit. When it fist started going down I though my engine had gone bad too but I'm around 180K now and that was 80K miles ago. Moon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:16:46 -0500 From: James Isennock Subject: fsj: Another oil pressure query Since I bought my 87 Grand Wagoneer 6 months ago I have noticed erratic oil pressure readings. Typically the gauge reads close to 80 PSI (but is not "pegged" ). Sometimes I get what seems a more likely 40 PSI or so. I have replaced the 1-wire sender with no change in the gauge reading. I don't think it is a dead short as even when the gauge is reading around 80 it isn't pegged like a dead short would be. With the exception of the typical erratic fuel readings all the other gauges are believable. Any suggestions as to where to look. Thanks, Jay Isennock Project Manager Centennial Contractors Enterprises Inc. Office 410-297-6790 Fax 410-297-6794 Mobile 443-324-4056 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:30:33 -0500 From: "Frazier Phillips" Subject: fsj: RE: Another oil pressure query I have a 86 GW. It has always started at 80 PSI when cold and goes to 40 PSI when hot. Even lower than that at idle. I thought this was normal Shorty - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of James Isennock Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 1:17 PM To: Jeep maillist (E-mail) Subject: fsj: Another oil pressure query Since I bought my 87 Grand Wagoneer 6 months ago I have noticed erratic oil pressure readings. Typically the gauge reads close to 80 PSI (but is not "pegged" ). Sometimes I get what seems a more likely 40 PSI or so. I have replaced the 1-wire sender with no change in the gauge reading. I don't think it is a dead short as even when the gauge is reading around 80 it isn't pegged like a dead short would be. With the exception of the typical erratic fuel readings all the other gauges are believable. Any suggestions as to where to look. Thanks, Jay Isennock Project Manager Centennial Contractors Enterprises Inc. Office 410-297-6790 Fax 410-297-6794 Mobile 443-324-4056 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:59:06 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: re:engine trouble Hey Dan, I thought I was having this problem, but an oil pump modification put my oil pressure back up. I was seeing 9psi at idle and 37 at highway speeds when fully warm. Now get 14 at idle and 46 on the highway. No rebuilt housing/new gears, I did put in a new relief spring, but I doubt this affected much. The difference is that the oil pump housing gasket is about .005 thick. It used to be .011. You know, comes from FelPro, put a gasket in there, no leaks - must be fine, right? Well, the pump is less efficient, because it now has a reservoir where oil can pool. The key is to find someone/get appropriate material to cut this out, probably should be done on a mill. Mine is plastic. I can't explain why it was gradually dropping prior to this. I've put 7K miles on since then. - - Landon Dan wrote: Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:58:00 CST From: Dan Black Subject: fsj: engine trouble To make a semi-long story short, in my '88 (AMC360), the oil pressure started gradually dropping a couple weeks ago (thank goodness for a real gauge and not a dummy light), and it looks like I'll be needing a new engine. (This one has _just_ under 100Kmi on it, like over 98 or 99K.) So, does anybody have any leads on a used 401 that I could send in to be rebuilt? Cuz if I'm gonna swap engines, I want to do it right. What else do I need for the swap? Just the flexplate? Any other ideas? (And less than a V8 is NOT an option. ;) ) Maybe a lead on a new 4.7 from a wrecked WJ or something? Would I be able to put that in with a tranny adapter and custom mounts? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:58:55 CST From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Engine Trouble I said: {- > To make a semi-long story short, in my '88 (AMC360), the oil pressure {- > started gradually dropping a couple weeks ago (thank goodness for a real {- > gauge and not a dummy light), and it looks like I'll be needing a new {- > engine. (This one has _just_ under 100Kmi on it, like over 98 or 99K.) Moontanman-at-aol.com said: {- I lost oil pressure several years ago, it never came back! Bad oil pressure {- sending unit. When it fist started going down I though my engine had gone bad {- too but I'm around 180K now and that was 80K miles ago. Tesar Landon-r16884 said: {- Hey Dan, I thought I was having this problem, but an oil pump {- modification put my oil pressure back up. I was seeing 9psi at idle and {- 37 at highway speeds when fully warm. {- {- Now get 14 at idle and 46 on the highway. No rebuilt housing/new gears, {- I did put in a new relief spring, but I doubt this affected much. {- {- The difference is that the oil pump housing gasket is about .005 thick. {- It use d to be .011. You know, comes from FelPro, put a gasket in {- there, no leaks - m ust be fine, right? Well, the pump is less {- efficient, because it now has a res ervoir where oil can pool. {- {- The key is to find someone/get appropriate material to cut this out, {- probably s hould be done on a mill. Mine is plastic. {- {- I can't explain why it was gradually dropping prior to this. I've put {- 7K miles on since then. They replaced the oil pump already. Said it didn't help much. They said they were going to hook up a pressure gauge themselves to verify the dash gauge; I assume they did that. :( - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You know what seems odd to me? Numbers that aren't divisible by two. -- Michael Wolf - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 2003 12:55:58 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: '85 GW electrical problem - seem like a power surge Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:55:58 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A: First, carefully check the connector plugged into the alt. If the red wire has a break in it, you can get intermittent surges like that. The other possibility is a short someplace. Make sure you have a ground wire from the battery negative to the body! I burned out Black Jack's headlights day after I bought it (and PO replaced them several times from the look of the screws) John has a pic of the wire I pulled out from behind the seat of Elmo I slapped on before replacing the lights (high beams usually still work after this happens as they take more of a spike before burning out) From: "Keith, Michael S" Thanks for the reply. Sorry about the confusion. I was talking about the dash lights, & they do glow brightly prior to headlight failure. If the regulator is most likely the problem, that leads me to some other questions. Why does it only occur when the lights are on, & why does it only cause the headlight bulbs to burn out? Why does the problem not seem to occur until after new headlights are installed? Being that the symptoms seem intermittent in nature, would a bench test of the alternator show the problem at any given time? In other words, are we going to have to run the car until the symptoms reappear & then pull the alternator on the spot in order to get a valid test? Thanks again, Michael Keith Houston, TX _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jan 2003 12:58:49 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: engine trouble Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:58:49 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A: Dan, if you're talking about the OEM dash gauge, they go bad too (actually, the sender does) If you're running a Fram filter, I suggest getting something else. (at least not the regular one) Has your motor overheated? There is a spring you may need to replace in the oil pump. From: Dan Black To make a semi-long story short, in my '88 (AMC360), the oil pressure started gradually dropping a couple weeks ago (thank goodness for a real gauge and not a dummy light), and it looks like I'll be needing a new engine. (This one has _just_ under 100Kmi on it, like over 98 or 99K.) So, does anybody have any leads on a used 401 that I could send in to be rebuilt? Cuz if I'm gonna swap engines, I want to do it right. What else do I need for the swap? Just the flexplate? Any other ideas? (And less than a V8 is NOT an option. ;) ) Maybe a lead on a new 4.7 from a wrecked WJ or something? Would I be able to put that in with a tranny adapter and custom mounts? _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:03:44 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: NP-229 vacuum diagram A: In a nutshell: Line from intake to black ball. Then from ball to switch on the dash. From there come 2 hoses. 1 for on, and one for off. There is a tee in the off line that goes to both the shift motors. The on line goes to the axle first (to make sure it's engaged) then to the transfercase motor. That's how it works. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:36:42 CST From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: engine trouble "Jim B" said: {- From: Dan Black {- {- To make a semi-long story short, in my '88 (AMC360), the oil pressure {- started gradually dropping a couple weeks ago (thank goodness for a real {- gauge and not a dummy light), and it looks like I'll be needing a new {- engine. (This one has _just_ under 100Kmi on it, like over 98 or 99K.) {- A: Dan, if you're talking about the OEM dash gauge, they go bad too {- (actually, the sender does) If you're running a Fram filter, I suggest {- getting something else. (at least not the regular one) Has your motor {- overheated? There is a spring you may need to replace in the oil pump. I just double-checked; they did check it with their own pressure gauge, and the dash gauge was accurate. After replacing the oil pump, it was getting about 15psi in neutral, and then dropped to about 5psi when driving. No, the engine's never overheated. Don't think it ever got warmer than halfway up the temp gauge since I've been driving it (over 50Kmi and about four years). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In my day, we couldn't afford shoes, so we went barefoot. In the winter, we had to wrap our feet with barbed wire for traction. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:34:54 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: fsj: engine trouble On Thu, Jan 23, 2003 at 03:36:42PM -0600, Dan Black wrote: > "Jim B" said: > {- From: Dan Black > {- > {- To make a semi-long story short, in my '88 (AMC360), the oil pressure > {- started gradually dropping a couple weeks ago (thank goodness for a real > {- gauge and not a dummy light), and it looks like I'll be needing a new > {- engine. (This one has _just_ under 100Kmi on it, like over 98 or 99K.) > > {- A: Dan, if you're talking about the OEM dash gauge, they go bad too > {- (actually, the sender does) If you're running a Fram filter, I suggest > {- getting something else. (at least not the regular one) Has your motor > {- overheated? There is a spring you may need to replace in the oil pump. > > I just double-checked; they did check it with their own pressure gauge, > and the dash gauge was accurate. After replacing the oil pump, it was > getting about 15psi in neutral, and then dropped to about 5psi when > driving. Somewhat surprising with that low amount of miles on it needing a bottom end already. If it IS the bottom end (low oil pressure but not burning oil) you could probably get away with just slapping a crank kit in and calling it good. Other possibilities, if you're still running a mechanical fuel pump, pull the dipstick and have a sniff. If it smells like gas, there's your problem. Other possibilities while you've got the dipstick out - check your oil level. Too much oil will cause foaming, which will lower the viscosity of the oil. Either way, changing the oil and using oil that isn't the kmart 50 cents per quart oil and an oil filter that isn't the orange fram garbage may help. If you're running something-w30, you might want to switch to oil that is a little thicker. You may also have a clogged pickup (it happens), which would restrict flow to the pump. Good luck. If it was my engine, and the oil pressure problem was bottom end, I'd just slap a crank kit in and call it done. Sure, it's nice to have it freshly rebuilt, and everything new, but it's even nicer to have it running without dropping a couple grand on something which could be a problem once you put the sucker in. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:07:20 -0600 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: Oil Filters I must have been missing something. What is the "preferred filter" for us who have to shop AutoZone most of the time? I thought a FRAM was OK if it was changed every oil change, which I do every 3K. Really I've had this thing since about 75K miles and she's just now beginning to puff blue at start up a little. Now with 203,584 miles I didn't think that was too bad... Someone educate me. JeepNut - -- Registered Linux User #287453 In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows or Gates? - ------------------------------------------------------------ '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer '87 Grand Wagoneer '92 Cherokee ...and they say there's only one... - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:39:06 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Oil Filters frams are really bad... wix or hastings... or amsoil of course. ;) john At 11:07 PM 1/23/2003 -0600, JeepNut wrote: >I must have been missing something. >What is the "preferred filter" for us who have to shop AutoZone most of >the time? >I thought a FRAM was OK if it was changed every oil change, which I do >every 3K. >Really I've had this thing since about 75K miles and she's just now >beginning to puff blue at start up a little. >Now with 203,584 miles I didn't think that was too bad... >Someone educate me. > JeepNut > > >-- >Registered Linux User #287453 >In a world without walls and fences, >who needs Windows or Gates? >------------------------------------------------------------ >'87 Street Comanche #24/100 >'88 Grand Wagoneer >'87 Grand Wagoneer >'92 Cherokee > ...and they say there's only one... >------------------------------------------------------------ - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 00:01:58 -0600 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: Added one to the stable if anyone cares to read about it. I bought another Jeep from list member John P and have been trying to get up to central Kentucky to pick it up for quite some time. Finally got the wife and kids together and went after it this weekend. It was the typical fiasco for us. Friday night I loaded a trailer with parts needed to get this Jeep home. I knew it needed some things. John was very forthcoming about the condition and what it's needs were. It was so nice to deal with him and his family. Great folks. They have been very fair, patient, and helpful on this deal. They took care of getting a windshield in it for me so I could drive it home and just did a lot of little helpful things. Someone should get the white one that was sitting next to the one I bought. Ask John Pettit for the details, but it looks GREAT! Wish I could have bought it instead. Someone needs to take her home. The paint is fantastic from what I noticed, looks REALLY clean inside. The worst thing I could say about it is that the woodgrain is flaking in a few places. NOT a big detriment to the otherwise great looking truck. The one I got is much rougher, but the engine has been recently rebuilt so I NEED it badly. My '88 has 203K miles on the original engine now and just pings all the time, no matter what I do. I think it is just loose and tired as can be. Valve train, lower end, everything has the full 203K miles on it but the timing chain. I don't think I've even had to replace the water pump on this puppy. The timing chain "only" has about 125,000 miles on it. But it pings nearly all the time upon accelerating from a stop, even with colder plugs, 93 octane AND even with octane booster in it.... I have given up trying to stop it. I presume she's just worn out. But it doesn't use hardly any oil. Leaks, but not really burns. But to get the new Jeep home I took extra wheels, tools, floor jack, cardboard to lay on, oil change kit, etc, etc. and I spent half of Friday night getting the lights working on the trailer, loaded, tied down, etc. Finished up Saturday morning, got the kids all ready, everyone going out to get in the Cherokee to start out the trip... .and the battery was dead. Classic. It's been pretty cold lately and it's 4 or 5 years old, so no surprise I guess. So I had to get out the jump starter and get the thing running, then loaded up everybody and started the trip. First stop, AutoZone for a new battery, and off we go. Got to Murray, KY and it started snowing like crazy, had to shift into 4x4 by the time we got on the Western KY Parkway. That slowed us down some.... sat through a wreck on a bridge on the Pennyrile, made it to Madisonville about 3 hours later than I intended. Went into Madisonville to get gas, took yet another potty break , grabbed some water bottles and a sandwich and started to head for central KY to look at the Jeep and start working on it to make it road ready... and somebody pulls up beside us and says, Hey did you know your trailer has a flat? So back to WalMart to try and buy a spare wheel, which I could not find the right size of course. So I pulled it off and worked it over in the gas station parking lot, got it to seal up again (why it went flat I dunno. There was nothing in it) and pumped it up and got it to stop leaking around the bead, so we mounted it up and off we go.... But by now we're more than half a day behind, it's 4:30-5:00, getting dark so we abandoned the effort to work on the Jeep and decided to go straight to the hotel in Evansville where we had planned to meet some family for a mini-vacation while we were close. Got to Henderson, KY just across the river from Evansville and some goon had wrecked on the bridge so we sat in traffic for about an hour trying to get to Evansville. Eventually we got settled down at the hotel, let the kids play in the pool, (indoor of course) and had a nice dinner and visit, got little or no sleep, loaded up the Cherokee again on Sunday and started back to central KY. Spent a long cold afternoon out by their lake, getting the Jeep as road ready as we could and got out of there just about an hour to sunset. We made it back to Madisonville just about dark time. Which was good as one headlight didn't work and the other one lights up the ground only about 2 feet in front of the truck. So we spent the night in Madisonville. Then the next morning drove all the way back to Memphis. Once Dakota and I got a couple of good wheels on her, put cardboard in where 3 of the windows were broken out, killed a bunch of spiders, threw out a dozen wasp nests, and several mud daubers nests, etc, to make it road ready, I drove her (with no heat) all the way to Memphis without a hitch. Good ol' Jeep. Dakota is my 10 year old Grandson, and main mechanic, and loves working on Jeeps with his Papaw. Our other two Grandkids (M12, F14) and the wife sat in the Cherokee all afternoon keeping warm while Dakota and I busted hump in the cold wind and got it road worthy, so "us men" drove it home together. What a kid. He's decided that when we get the engine swapped into "My" Jeep, then we will rebuild the old engine and put it back in this one which he has already decided will be "HIS" Jeep when I'm done with it. !!!! He says by the time he gets 16 he'll have it all fixed up and ready to go off-roading. Like I said. What a kid. The wife of course isn't as excited about the new Jeep as either Dakota or I are. As the financial manager of this menagerie, her take on it is that this $550 Jeep cost $1200 actually. With the windshield I had to have put in it before we made the trip up, and $50.00 a pop everytime we stopped to eat, 2 nights in hotels with double rooms one night, gas in 2 trucks neither of which gets more than 15mpg, oil filters, miscellaneous car parts.... I guess maybe it did. Oh well, gotta have that motor before too much longer or we don't eat cause I won't have a way to get to work. She doesn't seem to count the value of the mini-vacation as much of a bonus for some reason. humph. Anyway that was our adventure for the weekend, hope I didn't bore anybody too much. Somebody buy John's white SJ. It's too nice to leave sitting there. JeepNut - -- Registered Linux User #287453 In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows or Gates? - ------------------------------------------------------------ '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer '87 Grand Wagoneer '92 Cherokee ...and they say there's only one... - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:42:53 CST From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Oil Filters OK, so where do we pick up the non-Frams? I'm guessing most of us will have to order them. And if we have to order them, I want specific information -- place, web site if possible, phone/address if not, exact model numbers, and preferrably prices. If you suggest multiple ones, might give a ranking and, if you have time, pros/cons of each. I'm getting sick of sources drying up for consumables... Actually, I might prefer ordering them anyway. It's getting to be a pain to even find one at Wal-Mart or Jocko's or anywhere that actually fits ours! And I like to buy a few at a time anyway, so I have them on hand when I need them and I don't have to then make a special trip in to a store to get one. john said: {- frams are really bad... wix or hastings... {- {- or amsoil of course. ;) {- {- john {- {- At 11:07 PM 1/23/2003 -0600, JeepNut wrote: {- >I must have been missing something. {- >What is the "preferred filter" for us who have to shop AutoZone most of {- >the time? {- >I thought a FRAM was OK if it was changed every oil change, which I do {- >every 3K. {- >Really I've had this thing since about 75K miles and she's just now {- >beginning to puff blue at start up a little. {- >Now with 203,584 miles I didn't think that was too bad... {- >Someone educate me. {- > JeepNut {- > {- > {- >-- {- >Registered Linux User #287453 {- >In a world without walls and fences, {- >who needs Windows or Gates? {- >------------------------------------------------------------ {- >'87 Street Comanche #24/100 {- >'88 Grand Wagoneer {- >'87 Grand Wagoneer {- >'92 Cherokee {- > ...and they say there's only one... {- >------------------------------------------------------------ {- {- ------------------------------------------------------------------ {- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ {- Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... {- jesus, don't leave life without him, please! {- ------------------------------------------------------------------- {- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I come from a small town whose population never changed. Each time a woman got pregnant, someone left town. -- Michael Prichard - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1843 **************************