From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Feb 6 23:46:03 2003 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, February 6 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1854 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: fsj: '85 GW electrical problem - seem like a power s urge fsj: steering wheel parts fsj: Re: Q upper half of main rear oil seal Re: fsj: steering wheel parts fsj: RE: Re: Q upper half of main rear oil seal Re: fsj: Q upper half of main rear oil seal RE: fsj: Q upper half of main rear oil seal fsj: Re: Q upper half of main rear oil seal fsj: Cruise Control fsj: Re: J10 questions RE: UPDATE - RE: fsj: '85 GW electrical problem - seem like a pow er s urge Re: fsj: Re: Adjusting bands on the 727 Re: fsj: steering wheel parts Re: fsj: steering wheel parts Re: fsj: steering wheel parts FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:21:53 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: RE: fsj: '85 GW electrical problem - seem like a power s urge Hey, Keith, what's the name of that shop? I'm not happy with the performance of my alternator, I'll go to Houston to get it fixed... - - Landon '89 GW Austin ================ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:47:52 -0600 From: "Keith, Michael S" Subject: UPDATE - RE: fsj: '85 GW electrical problem - seem like a power s urge Thanks again for everyone's help. Autozone's tester couldn't pick up a problem, but an auto electric shop found it. They had to disassemble the alternator, & test the regulator by itself. A new regulator & $15 later, problem seems to be solved. Michael Keith Houston, TX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 16:30:23 CST From: Dan Black Subject: fsj: steering wheel parts Need replacement parts for a '74 Wagoneer steering wheel (automatic on the column, tilt, of course). I need the spring and C-clip that go in there. I can look up the factory manual names for them if needed. Anybody know where I can buy them, or have used ones? Local junkyard does not have any steering columns for FSJs between '73 and '85. I also need a new turn signal switch. That's the plastic round piece. Actually, it's a two-piece plastic thing; the top half I found easily in the Help! stuff at the local parts place; they call it the "turn signal cam". The factory manual never shows or mentions them apart; it calls the bottom and top pieces together as the "turn signal switch". Napa apparently has the bottom half as the "turn signal canceling cam" or something like that, but it's $60 or $70. I was hoping to get one cheaper. However, sounds like you want to buy one new, because a used one will just wear out again that much sooner. (On mine, the plastic pieces that the springs clip onto are broken pretty badly. They're already rigged to sort-of work, but I want a new one to get it working completely correctly again and to make sure it stays fixed.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thunder is a rich source of loudness. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:44:25 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Q upper half of main rear oil seal I had the same problem on my '71. The local jeep guru said that people occasionally use adhesive on them if they have trouble with them "walking" out. That would indicate that the crank bearings need help. Mine did. After some foolishly violent and unproductive hammering with a brass punch, I made a tool to cut the upper seal away from the block. It worked, but ultimately the seal problem was the catalyst for the much-needed engine rebuild when the new seal leaked worse than the old one. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer In a message dated 2/5/2003 9:47:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net writes: >i'm in the process of replacing the main rear oil seal in my 90 gw with the >motor still in. so i have the pan off, and the rear main bearing cap is >off. i'm trying to get at the upper half of the seal to remove it. > >my books say to press one end with a pokey-thing until the other end can be >grabbed with pliers. > >do you gotta hit it hard to get it to slide out? the books also say to be >careful to not damage the crank. > >you any tips? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:46:39 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: fsj: steering wheel parts On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 04:30:23PM -0600, Dan Black wrote: > Need replacement parts for a '74 Wagoneer steering wheel (automatic on > the column, tilt, of course). I need the spring and C-clip that go in > there. I can look up the factory manual names for them if needed. > Anybody know where I can buy them, or have used ones? Local junkyard > does not have any steering columns for FSJs between '73 and '85. The guts to repair the column in the 74 cherokee (though a non-tilt column) came from a parts counter. They didn't stock jeep stuff, but happily sold me stuff for a 72 nova with a non-tilt column, floor shift. Works file :) What failed miserably on me was the plastic gear on the end of the ignition cylinder. Apparently they have a lifespan of around 360k :) > I also need a new turn signal switch. That's the plastic round piece. > Actually, it's a two-piece plastic thing; the top half I found easily in > the Help! stuff at the local parts place; they call it the "turn signal > cam". The factory manual never shows or mentions them apart; it calls > the bottom and top pieces together as the "turn signal switch". Napa > apparently has the bottom half as the "turn signal canceling cam" or > something like that, but it's $60 or $70. I was hoping to get one > cheaper. However, sounds like you want to buy one new, because a used > one will just wear out again that much sooner. (On mine, the plastic > pieces that the springs clip onto are broken pretty badly. They're > already rigged to sort-of work, but I want a new one to get it working > completely correctly again and to make sure it stays fixed.) I'm eventually going to have to do this myself for the 74. I'm betting that the chevy parts will bail me out again :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 74 Cherokee 2 door (258 1bbl, T15, D20, open 3.54 d44's) 77 Cherokee 4 door S (401 4bbl, TH400, BW QT, open 3.54 d44's) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:46:18 -0800 From: "Faith Jeff" Subject: fsj: RE: Re: Q upper half of main rear oil seal ug how make tool? - -----Original Message----- From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com [mailto:Brazzadog-at-aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 2:44 PM To: fsj-at-digest.net Subject: fsj: Re: Q upper half of main rear oil seal I had the same problem on my '71. The local jeep guru said that people occasionally use adhesive on them if they have trouble with them "walking" out. That would indicate that the crank bearings need help. Mine did. After some foolishly violent and unproductive hammering with a brass punch, I made a tool to cut the upper seal away from the block. It worked, but ultimately the seal problem was the catalyst for the much-needed engine rebuild when the new seal leaked worse than the old one. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, contains information from Prescription Solutions which may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy all electronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:01:11 -0800 From: "Machinedoc" Subject: Re: fsj: Q upper half of main rear oil seal Hi Guy's, Yes this is pretty simple to do. A small punch tapped on one end (on the wire) on the seal until you can get a grip on the other end with pliers then just pull it through. It works easiest if you loosen the main nearing caps a little first. Be sure to not damage the crank. I did this repair on my 86 GW without having to jack it up. Be careful to keep things clean while the pan is off. I paid $18 for that stupid seal, but with close to 200,000 miles it needed it real bad. That was about two years ago. Good luck, Curtis Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:38:15 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: Re: fsj: Q upper half of main rear oil seal Hey, can you do this stuff with the flexplate / flywheel / torque converter / tranny connected? Just curious... Greg - - --- john wrote: > go to napa and buy the slim jim seal tool or whatever they > recommend. careful not to scratch the journals... keep things > clean... > > john > > At 09:41 AM 2/5/2003 -0800, Faith Jeff wrote: > >hi all, > > > >i'm in the process of replacing the main rear oil seal in my 90 gw > with the > >motor still in. so i have the pan off, and the rear main bearing > cap is > >off. i'm trying to get at the upper half of the seal to remove > it. > > > >my books say to press one end with a pokey-thing until the other > end can be > >grabbed with pliers. > > > >do you gotta hit it hard to get it to slide out? the books also > say to be > >careful to not damage the crank. > > > >you any tips? > > > >thanks, > >jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:57:25 -0500 From: James Isennock Subject: RE: fsj: Q upper half of main rear oil seal Both rod and main bearings should be less than $100.00. If you only do one set, do the rods as they rotate twice as fast as the mains. Take a look at the bearing shell from the rear main cap you pulled. You can tell what sort of shape its in just by looking. If you see obvious grooves or scratches or an area where the inner copper material is exposed its time to replace. The most professional way to do the job involves removing the crankshaft and having the bearing surfaces checked and in most cases machined to the next standard undersize typically .010 under. Then new bearings corresponding to the undersize amount are installed. Another option is to use plastic-gauge available in better auto parts stores. This is thin plastic that is laid on the crank journal surface then the cap is replaced and torqued to spec. The plastic squishes out when the cap is torqued down. Then you remove the cap and measure how far out the plastic-gauge squished. This gives a good idea how much wear has occurred. Then you can purchase the correct undersize bearings. The way I originally mentioned is to just replace the bearings with new ones of the same size (or undersize if the crank has been previously ground down) I am sure that some will complain that not measuring and grinding the crank is sacrilege. They will say that the proper way involves the crank removal/grinding explained above Blah blah blah. I say that if the bearing is worn and you just put in a new one your better off then having done nothing at all. Also you can do it "my" way in less than a day and the only cost is the bearings as opposed to the hassle of removing your crank and hauling off to the machine shop and waiting who knows how long for machine work and then hoping that the machinist wasn't hung over and having a bad day when he grinds on your crankshaft. Sure, The best way is to machine the crank but your working on a low compression low RPM Jeep motor. If you had a race car that was spun to 8500 RPM it would be different but the Jeep motor probably never even sees 3000 RPM and it will live forever if your just replace the bearings every 50K miles or so. I have done a stock size bearing swap on two different motors so far and have been pleased with the improvements in oil pressure and the certain knowledge that I have done something relatively low cost that will pay off in increased longevity for my motor. Jay Isennock Original Message----- From: Faith Jeff [mailto:Jeff.Faith-at-rxsol.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 5:28 PM To: James Isennock Subject: RE: fsj: Q upper half of main rear oil seal how much work is replacing the bearings? how cheap are good bearings? ten, fifty bucks? this is the farthest into the internals of an engine i've been. i've done intake and exhaust manifolds and things with pulleys, even brakes and suspension, so i'd probably be okay. i just need to learn the vocabulary and read the books and stuff. would i need to use a machine shop to do any of the things you're talking about below? thanks, jeff - -----Original Message----- From: James Isennock [mailto:Jisennock-at-cce-apg.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:12 PM To: 'john'; Greg Loxtercamp Cc: fsj-at-digest.net Subject: RE: fsj: Q upper half of main rear oil seal While your in there this far anyway you ought to take a look at all the bearings too. Bearings (even good ones) are pretty cheap the cost is in the labor. If you don't want to mic or plasticguage the crank you could just put standard bearings back in without measuring anything. Ideally you measure everything and use undersize where appropriate but fresh standards are better than worn standards. Be sure to look at the back of the bearing shell to check if they were previously replaced with undersized though and put back in what you take out. Also, on the back - replacement bearings typically have a manufacturing date stamp so you can verify if the motor has ever been re-built. Being 13 years old new bearings can't hurt (even if you only do the rods) and the only special tool required is a torque wrench. An added benefit is with all the main caps loose the rear seal replacement is a little easier. Jay Isennock This electronic message transmission, including any attachments, contains information from Prescription Solutions which may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy all electronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:06:39 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Q upper half of main rear oil seal In a message dated 2/5/2003 2:49:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jeff.Faith-at-rxsol.com writes: >ug > >how make tool? Grind a chisel point on the end of a hacksaw blade. Grind the side so that it's narrow enough to fit in the seal groove. Start with a short nub (maybe 3/8") that's mostly unground blade. Work it in behind the seal from both sides using lots of WD-40 type lube. Grind more of the blade side down to fit the seal groove as you go deeper. The deeper you get behind the seal. the more you're at risk of snapping off the tool behind the seal. This is a slow tedious process that requires lots of patience and luck. If I haven't been clear about the tool, let me know. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:33:13 -0500 From: "Frazier Phillips" Subject: fsj: Cruise Control My cruise control on my 86 GW quit working. It will not engage. The only thing I remember doing recently was to remove the speedometer cable, cleaned it and lubricated it with speedometer lubrication. I am assuming this cable ends in the speed sensor. Would removing this cable and putting it back in be a waste of my time? The speedometer is working properly. Shorty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 20:32:45 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: J10 questions At 04:23 PM 2/5/2003 -0500, Joel Piotrowski wrote: >That would be interesting. Mine did not say Honcho on the side like most >of the ones I have seen. It just had black, orange, yellow and musturd >colored stripes over the red paint with a sticker of a charging bull on >the leading edge of the door. I've never seen another jeep with a charging >bull sticker, have you? >Joel my '83 has red, orange and yellow stripes on the copper brown metallic paint... well, will have had... repainting it a later model color... dark driftwood poly I think... (been so long since I decided I forgot now... :) here's some feeble attempts to photograph the color: http://www.wagoneers.com/SuperDawg/DawgYear2002/SuperDawg-Color/ALL-superdawg-color-2002.jpg john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 20:43:53 -0800 From: john Subject: RE: UPDATE - RE: fsj: '85 GW electrical problem - seem like a pow er s urge the small independent's like that are great... send them as much business as you can. :) john At 03:09 PM 2/5/2003 -0600, Keith, Michael S wrote: >Yep, I did the R&R, but the electric shop basically rebuilt the alternator >for $15. They disassembled it, cleaned & checked everything, & reassembled >it with a new regulator. Not a bad deal in my book, & I'd rather give my >business to a hard-working independent shop than a large corporation any day >of the week. > >Michael Keith >Houston, TX >-----Original Message----- >From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] >Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 2:33 PM >To: Keith, Michael S; 'michael_shimniok-at-mac.com' >Cc: fsj-at-digest.net >Subject: Re: UPDATE - RE: fsj: '85 GW electrical problem - seem like a >power s urge > > >no surprise that a chain store's tester didn't find it... sounded >like a thermal problem in the regulator... glad it was so >easy to fix... I assume you did the R&R for only $15. ;) > >john > >At 01:47 PM 2/5/2003 -0600, Keith, Michael S wrote: > >Thanks again for everyone's help. Autozone's tester couldn't pick up a > >problem, but an auto electric shop found it. They had to disassemble the > >alternator, & test the regulator by itself. A new regulator & $15 later, > >problem seems to be solved. > > > >Michael Keith > >Houston, TX - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 23:12:40 -0600 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Adjusting bands on the 727 Are you kidding? I used the duct tape to rebuild the half of the plenum that is busted up and for sealing the blower motor to the front of the plenum so I can have heat.!! (along with the wood block wedged in there keeping the fan pressed in place) ROFL!!! JeepNut P.S. the tie wrap worked great. This thing shifts pretty much normally, just no kickdown... john wrote: > At 11:00 PM 2/4/2003 -0600, JeepNut wrote: > >> I didn't have any baling wire on hand. > > > what? and you didn't have any duct tape neither???? :) > > john > ----------------------------- > Oh well, > I'm a man, > but I can change, > if I have to, > I guess > -Red Green > ------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > If you're thinking about Lasik, you have to check out this > place: http://www.restorevisioncenters.com/ My vision went from over > 20/200 to 20/15 or better! Tell 'em john at wagoneers.com sent you. :) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - -- Registered Linux User #287453 In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows or Gates? - ------------------------------------------------------------ '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer '87 Grand Wagoneer '92 Cherokee ...and they say there's only one... - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 08:38:38 CST From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: steering wheel parts Kevin Pekarek said: {- On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 04:30:23PM -0600, Dan Black wrote: {- > Need replacement parts for a '74 Wagoneer steering wheel (automatic on {- > the column, tilt, of course). I need the spring and C-clip that go in {- > there. I can look up the factory manual names for them if needed. {- > Anybody know where I can buy them, or have used ones? Local junkyard {- > does not have any steering columns for FSJs between '73 and '85. {- {- The guts to repair the column in the 74 cherokee (though a non-tilt column) {- came from a parts counter. They didn't stock jeep stuff, but happily sold me {- stuff for a 72 nova with a non-tilt column, floor shift. Works file :) So I can just walk into a parts place, get a spring and C-clip for a '72 Nova steering column, and it'll work? (That part doesn't surprise me, but I'd like to know what other ranges of models and years are available - -- they don't generally have that stuff cross-referenced.) And that will not work for the plastic pieces (turn signal switch), eh? Or _are_ there some models of steering columns from other brands that will work? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Real Programmers don't play tennis, or any other sport which requires a change of clothes. Mountain climbing is OK, and Real Programmers wear climbing boots to work in case a mountain should suddenly spring up in the middle of the machine room. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:32:33 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: fsj: steering wheel parts On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 08:38:38AM -0600, Dan Black wrote: > So I can just walk into a parts place, get a spring and C-clip for a '72 > Nova steering column, and it'll work? (That part doesn't surprise me, > but I'd like to know what other ranges of models and years are available > -- they don't generally have that stuff cross-referenced.) > > And that will not work for the plastic pieces (turn signal switch), eh? > Or _are_ there some models of steering columns from other brands that > will work? AMC bought the steering columns from Saginaw, a division of GM. Because of this you can easily get parts for it by referring to it as a GM column. The overall length and case is different (ever see a GM column that says "torque command"?), but the internals interchange. Your best bet would be to go to the parts store armed either with broken parts or measurements of the part you need so you can doublecheck before you paid for it. The unfortunate thing about the books at the parts store is they don't cross- reference between brands very well. BUT, it'll know what other chevies used the nova part or the suburban part, for example. If you're talking about the spring that goes behind the backing plate and the clip that holds the backing plate in, the one in my brother's 80 el camino was the same as the one in my 81 eagle (both tilt column) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:33:50 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: fsj: steering wheel parts On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 08:38:38AM -0600, Dan Black wrote: > And that will not work for the plastic pieces (turn signal switch), eh? I'm pretty sure the plastic pieces are the same as well. To be safe, I'd bring in the old/broken piece for comparison. > Or _are_ there some models of steering columns from other brands that > will work? I thought I heard rumors of someone putting a suburban column in an SJ, but can't remember where I heard that. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1854 **************************