From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Mar 18 21:48:47 2003 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, March 19 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1888 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: everyone needs THIS place, canadian or not fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual FSJ content Re: fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual FSJ content fsj: new cam: suggestions? RE: fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual FSJ content RE: fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual FSJ content RE: fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual FSJ content Re: fsj: new cam: suggestions? fsj: '76 J10 for sale or parts $850 obo Re: fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual FSJ content RE: fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual FSJ content FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 00:36:31 -0700 From: "Tacoma White" Subject: fsj: everyone needs THIS place, canadian or not www.amracing.com sadly the prices are in USD, I got all excited for a second. but anyway, they have some good prices on heads etc, and a LOT of stuff for any performance-minded FSJ/amc'ers out there. I know, I know, paradox, but they said we'd never get into space either. also check out the sweet tall valve covers and steel main caps, and the cam anti-walk buttons etc etc.. site is kinda screwy, so explore and drool. also, to those who know me, I am leaving Thursday for my biannual work trip, heading to OH, PA, and WV. Anyone want to get together while I'm out there? Would be nice to meet some Listers.... have a few M715'ers lined up in PA, and of course Zack Heisey, who conveniently lives minutes away from my parents now.. OH YEAH, I'll be going to upstate NY too.. anyway, I'll stop reading my mail late, late Wed. night... hope to hear from some of you. Thanks! Tacoma ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:37:29 -0600 From: "Keith, Michael S" Subject: fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual FSJ content That was a story that ran in Autoweek I believe. It made the rounds through the Alfa Digest about a couple of weeks ago. With all the rumors (many generated by Fiat itself), postponements, & Fiat Auto's uncertain future, I'm not holding my breath for Alfa's return. And why would I? I don't have $50K to spend on a car. Now if I thought there was actually a chance that I could get my hands on a 156 GTA, I'd be saving my pennies & drooling between now & '07. >I heard on the radio this weekend that Alfa is planning to return to US in 2007. 4 models, including a spyder and a 4WD wagon. Picture stuff that challenges the >current crop of Audis, but is faster, and even more expensive, to buy and fix. >Alfa is talking to 40 former dealers, which, I'm sure, is interesting, considering we can't even get a Mini Cooper dealer here in Austin. >MFSJC: I went to North Carolina on Greyhound to get a Volvo station wagon for the wife, and got back, hopped in the Jeep. I would rather drive the Jeep. > >- - Landon >===================== Would an FSJ be able to accept a GM 6.5 diesel? That is of interest to me because I recently acquired a '95 3/4 ton Suburban with the 6.5 turbo diesel, & I've grown quite fond of that motor. Even with tired injectors, probably a tired turbo, & a 4.10 diff, it still manages 16 mpg while lugging that behemoth through bumper-to-bumper traffic. I don't know how it would stack up to the Mercedes 3.0 TD in terms of fuel efficiency, but I would think that it would almost certainly be cheaper to own & easier to find. I saw some photos of a CJ with a 6.5 TD, but I don't know how complex that conversion was versus a typical V8 conversion for a CJ. >If the J10 project takes much longer I may try to find a Mercedes 3.0L turbo >Diesel to install as fuel prices keep climbing... ;) > >john - ------------------------------ That's why my Milano is my daily driver. :-) >My GTV6 is not running, why is it that the cars we want to drive the most are those we drive the least?? - ------------------------------ I'd love to snag that boat, but spending $8500 on a project boat & having to go from TX to WA to get it would be way more than the finance committee (wife) would tolerate. :-) >I just listed some of my neighbors stuff on ebay: >a 1964 Cadillac, a one owner 1988 Chevy conversion van >with 19k miles, and a one owner 24.5' Ron Rawson commercial >fiberglass hull boat with less then 100 hours on a >Volvo-Penta Diesel. Michael Keith Houston, TX ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 08:49:54 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual FSJ content the 6.5L Turbo Diesel is my target motor for an FSJ... the 3.0L TD Benz wouldn't work as well... not enough spunk. The 6.2 or 6.5L would be fine, probably weigh close to a 360. my '83 GMC Jimmy with the 6.2L got close to 20mpg, I would think a fresh 6.5L would do that in an FSJ... john At 09:37 AM 3/18/2003 -0600, Keith, Michael S wrote: > >===================== > >Would an FSJ be able to accept a GM 6.5 diesel? That is of interest to me >because I recently acquired a '95 3/4 ton Suburban with the 6.5 turbo >diesel, & I've grown quite fond of that motor. Even with tired injectors, >probably a tired turbo, & a 4.10 diff, it still manages 16 mpg while lugging >that behemoth through bumper-to-bumper traffic. I don't know how it would >stack up to the Mercedes 3.0 TD in terms of fuel efficiency, but I would >think that it would almost certainly be cheaper to own & easier to find. > >I saw some photos of a CJ with a 6.5 TD, but I don't know how complex that >conversion was versus a typical V8 conversion for a CJ. > > >If the J10 project takes much longer I may try to find a Mercedes 3.0L >turbo > >Diesel to install as fuel prices keep climbing... ;) > > > >john >------------------------------ - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 11:10:46 CST From: Dan Black Subject: fsj: new cam: suggestions? Still working on putting a rebuilt 401 to replace my dead 360 in the '88. I now have the short block and correct flexplate, and will be getting heads from an eBay auction (ended last night). So I think the only thing left is the cam. Any suggestions for a cam? This will be a daily driver, freshly rebuilt 401 with TBI (from customefis.com; upgrading to a Chevy 454 system), TF727 and NP229 (I think -- whatever was stock in '88), 3.54 gears with rear posi (currently just has the stock 2.72s, but already have the parts for the upgrade). I'd like a good compromise between power and fuel economy. I _hope_ power won't be a problem with a 401 and 3.54s, but I do want more power than I had with the 360 and 2.72s, so just because I'll be getting more doesn't mean I want to trade it all back in for mileage. Especially low-end torque is always good. :) But I also want to be able to drive it on the interstate without the revs going TOO high. I'm not even sure how much some of those factors are influenced by cam (vs. just the gears and stuff). - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think mauve has the most RAM. -- Pointy Hair - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 12:14:03 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: RE: fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual FSJ content I don't remember the details, but the big3 have worked diligently to make good diesel truck motors, and I would say the market has responded well. There are quality, heavy duty internals in these motors, the only question I have about GM is the head bolt configuration. I'm just not sure how far they came from an original gas V-8 concept. (350 Olds V8) - - Landon - -----Original Message----- From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:50 AM To: Keith, Michael S; fsj-digest-at-digest.net Cc: Tesar Landon-r16884; offtopic-at-digest.net Subject: Re: fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual FSJ content the 6.5L Turbo Diesel is my target motor for an FSJ... the 3.0L TD Benz wouldn't work as well... not enough spunk. The 6.2 or 6.5L would be fine, probably weigh close to a 360. my '83 GMC Jimmy with the 6.2L got close to 20mpg, I would think a fresh 6.5L would do that in an FSJ... john At 09:37 AM 3/18/2003 -0600, Keith, Michael S wrote: > >===================== > >Would an FSJ be able to accept a GM 6.5 diesel? That is of interest to me >because I recently acquired a '95 3/4 ton Suburban with the 6.5 turbo >diesel, & I've grown quite fond of that motor. Even with tired injectors, >probably a tired turbo, & a 4.10 diff, it still manages 16 mpg while lugging >that behemoth through bumper-to-bumper traffic. I don't know how it would >stack up to the Mercedes 3.0 TD in terms of fuel efficiency, but I would >think that it would almost certainly be cheaper to own & easier to find. > >I saw some photos of a CJ with a 6.5 TD, but I don't know how complex that >conversion was versus a typical V8 conversion for a CJ. > > >If the J10 project takes much longer I may try to find a Mercedes 3.0L >turbo > >Diesel to install as fuel prices keep climbing... ;) > > > >john >------------------------------ - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 13:11:37 -0800 From: john Subject: RE: fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual FSJ content well, it's not on my list of projects for some time... I'm still trying to finish the 4.0L conversion on my J10... two years now... hopefully it'll be done soon... I have a friend that said he could put it together by Labor Day... 2001... then before Ouray... now I'm hoping by this June... :) we'll see... I know I could have had it done a long time ago, but I'm sure it'll turn out much better... But the 6.5L project is many years down the road, if ever... :( john At 11:22 AM 3/18/2003 -0600, Keith, Michael S wrote: >I'd be very interested to hear how that conversion goes. Having recently >transitioned to two older cars as daily drivers (got sick of car payments), >I'm looking to get a backup vehicle in the near future. Having serviced my >brother-in-law's FSJ's for a few years now, I've become quite fond of them. >A diesel powered FSJ would be very nice. The 6.5 would no doubt be the >better motor, but I think there is something to be said for the 6.2. Being >that it is normally aspirated, I would think it a much easier conversion. > >Later, > >Michael S. Keith >Amvescap Data Management >713-214-1549 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] >Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:50 AM >To: Keith, Michael S; fsj-digest-at-digest.net >Cc: 'landon.tesar-at-motorola.com'; offtopic-at-digest.net >Subject: Re: fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual >FSJ content > > >the 6.5L Turbo Diesel is my target motor for an FSJ... >the 3.0L TD Benz wouldn't work as well... not enough spunk. >The 6.2 or 6.5L would be fine, probably weigh close to a 360. > >my '83 GMC Jimmy with the 6.2L got close to 20mpg, I would >think a fresh 6.5L would do that in an FSJ... > >john > >At 09:37 AM 3/18/2003 -0600, Keith, Michael S wrote: > > >===================== > > > >Would an FSJ be able to accept a GM 6.5 diesel? That is of interest to me > >because I recently acquired a '95 3/4 ton Suburban with the 6.5 turbo > >diesel, & I've grown quite fond of that motor. Even with tired injectors, > >probably a tired turbo, & a 4.10 diff, it still manages 16 mpg while >lugging > >that behemoth through bumper-to-bumper traffic. I don't know how it would > >stack up to the Mercedes 3.0 TD in terms of fuel efficiency, but I would > >think that it would almost certainly be cheaper to own & easier to find. > > > >I saw some photos of a CJ with a 6.5 TD, but I don't know how complex that > >conversion was versus a typical V8 conversion for a CJ. > > > > >If the J10 project takes much longer I may try to find a Mercedes 3.0L > >turbo > > >Diesel to install as fuel prices keep climbing... ;) > > > > > >john > >------------------------------ > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! >------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 13:48:20 -0800 From: john Subject: RE: fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual FSJ content At 03:35 PM 3/18/2003 -0600, Keith, Michael S wrote: >Sounds like you have a lot of irons in the fire; best of luck. yeah, first priority is to get a replacement job... got downsized in january... still teaching so I'm not out on the off-ramp with a sign yet. ;) Of course my alternate plan is to sell the house here on the green side of the mountains and move to South Dakota... Wife isn't real keen on that idea though... ;) >Maybe if I find the right FSJ, I'll give the diesel conversion a go. >Something like this, perhaps: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2407805737&cat >egory=6284 what? no picture??? why would an AZ car need rockers? doesn't make sense... Also, the '67 will have closed knuckle/drum brakes, pass side drop... the better choice would be to use an '80 and up FSJ. Also the frame isn't as solid as the '76 and up... If you're going to use a TH400 then look at a '76 to '79 SJ. Someone actually bid on the boat! I'm going to head out and pressure wash the Caddy and reshoot it... need to find the air cleaner too... later, john > >Would an FSJ be able to accept a GM 6.5 diesel? That is of interest to >me > > >because I recently acquired a '95 3/4 ton Suburban with the 6.5 turbo > > >diesel, & I've grown quite fond of that motor. Even with tired >injectors, > > >probably a tired turbo, & a 4.10 diff, it still manages 16 mpg while > >lugging > > >that behemoth through bumper-to-bumper traffic. I don't know how it >would > > >stack up to the Mercedes 3.0 TD in terms of fuel efficiency, but I would > > >think that it would almost certainly be cheaper to own & easier to find. > > > > > >I saw some photos of a CJ with a 6.5 TD, but I don't know how complex >that > > >conversion was versus a typical V8 conversion for a CJ. > > > > > > >If the J10 project takes much longer I may try to find a Mercedes 3.0L > > >turbo > > > >Diesel to install as fuel prices keep climbing... ;) > > > > > > > >john > > >------------------------------ - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 15:02:39 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: fsj: new cam: suggestions? On Tue, Mar 18, 2003 at 11:10:46AM -0600, Dan Black wrote: > Any suggestions for a cam? Be careful about asking for a stocker. Lots of jobbers erroneously use the stock cam for a 360 as the stocker for a 401. Big difference. > This will be a daily driver, freshly rebuilt 401 with TBI (from > customefis.com; upgrading to a Chevy 454 system), TF727 and NP229 (I > think -- whatever was stock in '88), 3.54 gears with rear posi > (currently just has the stock 2.72s, but already have the parts for the > upgrade). > > I'd like a good compromise between power and fuel economy. I _hope_ > power won't be a problem with a 401 and 3.54s, but I do want more power > than I had with the 360 and 2.72s, so just because I'll be getting more > doesn't mean I want to trade it all back in for mileage. Especially > low-end torque is always good. :) But I also want to be able to drive > it on the interstate without the revs going TOO high. I'm not even sure > how much some of those factors are influenced by cam (vs. just the gears > and stuff). My 77 is a factory 401 rig, four barrel, 3.54 gears, running 235/75R15s. It IS possible to go 65 down the freeway without opening the secondaries on the stock carb. That done, I've gotten as good as 14 mpg with it. If I was looking for mileage, I would not run a tire smaller than a 235 (29") with 3.54s. And power is NOT a problem. Pulled a 74 hornet on a trailer (around 5500 lbs total) up a 7% grade near my other house. 70 mph uphill, TONS of power left, not even a hint of a ping or temperature rising. Needless to say, that wasn't a 14 mpg trip :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 74 Cherokee 2 door (258 1bbl, T15, D20, open 3.54 d44's) 77 Cherokee 4 door S (401 4bbl, TH400, BW QT, open 3.54 d44's) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 15:13:40 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: '76 J10 for sale or parts $850 obo It's actually a J20, but I'm swapping my '84 J10 axles under it. It's going to be drivable with title and the specs are: I'm the second owner AFAIK (original owner is retired) and the truck was used for hauling stuff on the farm. 360 AMC motor with 2bbl 2100 carb (owner says carb rebuilt last year) with minor ticks and clicks of the usual -at-100,000 mile AMC. T18A 4 speed (6:1 first gear) with D20 transfercase (Shifts fine AFAIK. I'm going to drive it home in a few minutes) M20 rear axle 6 lug 1 piece axles (from my '84 J10 with 3.31 gears and less than 100K miles since rebuilt) I have some other ratios for it (3.54, 3.08 ) I also have a set of 4.10 D44 gears if someone has a rear axle to put them into. I also have a set of blocks to match a SOA raised front. D44 front axle with 4.10 and 6 lug hubs. (I also have a SOA D44 front axle with 3.08 and a set of D44 3.31 gears if you want to just match the rear axle and get gas mileage) A set of -at-60% 32" RVT tires on old chrome Chev 16" (6 lug) The truck is red, has PS/PB (double booster type), manual windows and a few dents with minor rust in the box. tailgate is in great shape (better than the one I paid $200 for!) There's probably more, but that's all I can think of right now. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 15:16:30 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual FSJ content On Tue, Mar 18, 2003 at 08:49:54AM -0800, john wrote: > the 6.5L Turbo Diesel is my target motor for an FSJ... > the 3.0L TD Benz wouldn't work as well... not enough spunk. > The 6.2 or 6.5L would be fine, probably weigh close to a 360. > > my '83 GMC Jimmy with the 6.2L got close to 20mpg, I would > think a fresh 6.5L would do that in an FSJ... I am currently passively looking for a 76-78 jeep that someone has stuffed a chevy small block in, as I'm going to stick a 6.2L/6.5L GM diesel in it. The 6.2 weighs in at more than a 360, it actually weighs a bit more than a 454. It is an all new design (well, when it came out) that has nothing in common (except the bellhousing pattern) with the olds 350 diesel. Diesel from the start (unlike the powerstroke, believe it or not. The PSD came from the 7.3, which came from a 6.9, whose relatives were gas motors). Memory serving me, the 6.2/6.5 was a GM/detroit collaborative effort, but unlike the Cummins ISB (dodge cummins) and the PSD, they didn't get used in big trucks. Current plan for my jeep (when I find it) is a 6.2 with a banks/ats turbo kit, or a 1993 6.5. 1993 was the only year of the MECHANICAL 6.5 - in 94, it picked up a computer. The internal differences between a 6.2 and a 6.5 would really only matter to me if I was cranking up the boost hardcore (which I'm not going to, cause I want to try to keep d44s so I don't have to get d60s - don't want to get into too much reengineering off the bat), or if I was doing serious heavy duty towing, which I ain't doing with an SJ. (6.2's only good for around 240 horse staying reliable, but you can get over 350 out of a 6.5 - last big number I heard was 400). I'd use the diesel TH400 with the jeep output shaft, and run full time borg warner quadratrac. Body lift may be necessary, or I might be able to get away with using hydroboost so I don't have to lift the body or worry about brake booster clearance. Running a 700R4 prevents a double cardan front shaft u-joint on the transfercase, so that's out (I'd have to reengineer the driveshaft to use smaller joints), plus the 700R4 really isn't as durable as an ol TH400. I can do without overdrive. I don't mind the gas mileage of an old SJ, but I *DO* mind having to carry so much !-at-#% fuel when I go wheelin in the desert. A diesel would seriously cut down on that. The other advantage is not having to worry about the Cali smog gestapo having problems with fuel injection on an old AMC engine. Don't really want TBI (hello, computer), would put up with MPFI, but it is not available for an AMC (with a smog sticker). K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 74 Cherokee 2 door (258 1bbl, T15, D20, open 3.54 d44's) 77 Cherokee 4 door S (401 4bbl, TH400, BW QT, open 3.54 d44's) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:46:21 -0800 From: john Subject: RE: fsj: Alfas, diesels, ebay stuff & a slight bit of actual FSJ content At 04:48 PM 3/18/2003 -0600, Keith, Michael S wrote: >Best of luck to you there for sure. I kinda know how you feel. We went >through a round of layoffs in late Nov, & now we have a group of consultants >going around to all of our offices & interviewing each staff member. Wanna >guess what they're looking for? not good... too much of that going around... (I think that's one of the topics that inspired Richard to create the off topic list...) Hope you survive, I don't need any more competition out here. ;) > >yeah, first priority is to get a replacement job... got downsized > >in january... still teaching so I'm not out on the off-ramp with a > >sign yet. ;) Of course my alternate plan is to sell the house > >here on the green side of the mountains and move to South Dakota... > >Wife isn't real keen on that idea though... ;) > >That struck me as odd also. I don't know how big of a deal that is with >FSJ's. Alfas are unit body cars; so rocker rust = structural rust = parts >car unless it's a particularly desirable model. the FSJ can have the floorboards missing and it'll be fine. I can't remember how many license plates, equipment panels, and fiberglass cloth pieces I've embedded in FSJ floors over the years. :) > >what? no picture??? why would an AZ car need rockers? doesn't make > >sense... > >Thanks for the tips. I haven't given this much practical consideration >other than to look for something with a bad motor. It's just something >that's been kicking around in the back of my head since I bought the >Suburban. I'm partial to the looks of the earlier SJ's. A '76 to '79 would >be nice. A J10 or J20 wouldn't be a bad idea either since this is the first >time in about 8 years that I find myself not owning a truck. The only visual difference on an FSJ from 1962 and 1992 is the grille, headlights and taillights and all that can be switched around... there is very subtle body changes that most would not notice and the parts will still interchange. :) > >Also, the '67 will have closed knuckle/drum brakes, pass side drop... the > >better choice would be to use an '80 and up FSJ. Also the frame isn't > >as solid as the '76 and up... If you're going to use a TH400 then look > >at a '76 to '79 SJ. > >That will make someone a very nice fishing boat. If the deck & cabin are in >bad enough shape, I'd probably convert it to a center console if it were >mine. Of course, winter is almost non-existent where I live. winter? what's that? we saw some snow flakes a few weeks ago, but they didn't reach the ground. :( Someone has bid on the boat... $500! ;) The reserve is set to protect that Volvo-Penta Diesel engine!!! I wonder if that would work in an FSJ... :) well, almost time for dinner and then try to get the Caddy over here to clean it... later, john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1888 **************************