From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Jun 10 22:31:22 2003 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, June 10 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1947 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: H2 collision Re: fsj: H2 collision RE: fsj: H2 collision Re: fsj: Adding Power Steering to J-10 Re: fsj: RE: Adding Power Steering to J-10 RE: fsj: H2 collision Re: fsj: H2 collision fsj: 4 bbl 360 parts for sale Re: fsj: H2 collision FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 01:29:27 -0400 From: Mike Polkki Subject: Re: fsj: H2 collision Hey now, That's getting personal ;) I have always driven Dodge Trucks. Im On my 3rd one. It's a 1993 Power Ram The last of the old body styles. But I will admit the frames leave a lot to be desired. On my old 86 Pickup the frame rusted through badly before the body did. and this is in salt country. I guess I shouldn't expect the supporting piece of the vehicle to outlive sheetmetal...... FWIW- My old Wagoneer had very little body left but a solid frame....:) john wrote: > all the articles I've read about the Dodge trucks refer to > "spaghetti" frames... I had an '85 3/4t 4x4... sad... neither > of those vehicles is "solid"... notice how the dually dodge looks > tweaked... I saw a 3/4t pu get tagged by a little ranger in town > and the dodge was tweaked in a major way... like a pretzel... 25 mph... > > john > > At 02:09 PM 6/9/2003 -0400, Mike Polkki wrote: > >> there is a cool story behind that accident. The Owner of the H2 Owns >> a Hummer, Dodge, Buck Dealer. He sold the ram new. I guess he fell >> asleep behind the wheel and crashed into the ram. He even gave the >> ram owners a new truck. I know this because I have family that lives >> in that town >> >> Dan Black wrote: >> >>> http://129.186.79.84/H2.jpg >>> >>> Pic of an H2 after a head-on collision with a Dodge Ram (looks like a >>> dually). Check out the damage on each truck... This is some proof (as >>> if we needed it) that the H2 is junk; basically just a lot of >>> clutter on >>> a very mediocre truck frame, and certainly not worthy of the Hummer >>> name. >>> >>> I am a little disappointed that the Dodge has even that much damage, >>> but >>> I don't know how fast they were going, either. And note that the Dodge >>> seems to have taken all the impact on one corner, where the H2 took it >>> apparently across the entire front. >>> >>> Certainly nothing salvageable on the H2 in front of the human >>> compartment, and likely nothing but small interior pieces in front of >>> the rear doors. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> It's all a pigment of your hallucination. >>> -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org >>> -------------- >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:18:03 -0700 From: "Phillips, Scott" Subject: Re: fsj: H2 collision I hate to be the moron to point this out but look at the passanger compartments on both vehicles. Looks to me like there was no intrusion into the passanger compartments by the drivetrain or front end. Also it looks to me as if the doors on both vehicles are able to open almost freely (well the passanger side door on the H2 is the exception). I'd say that they fulfilled their design creation by dissipating the energy of the crash into crumple zones rather than passing it straight to the occupants via a super stiff chassis. So I guess in short - they were built to do that in a front end collision. - -----Original Message----- Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:47:36 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: fsj: H2 collision http://129.186.79.84/H2.jpg Pic of an H2 after a head-on collision with a Dodge Ram (looks like a dually). Check out the damage on each truck... This is some proof (as if we needed it) that the H2 is junk; basically just a lot of clutter on a very mediocre truck frame, and certainly not worthy of the Hummer name. I am a little disappointed that the Dodge has even that much damage, but I don't know how fast they were going, either. And note that the Dodge seems to have taken all the impact on one corner, where the H2 took it apparently across the entire front. Certainly nothing salvageable on the H2 in front of the human compartment, and likely nothing but small interior pieces in front of the rear doors. - - - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- It's all a pigment of your hallucination. - - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org - -------------- - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 14:09:23 -0400 From: Mike Polkki Subject: Re: fsj: H2 collision there is a cool story behind that accident. The Owner of the H2 Owns a Hummer, Dodge, Buck Dealer. He sold the ram new. I guess he fell asleep behind the wheel and crashed into the ram. He even gave the ram owners a new truck. I know this because I have family that lives in that town - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:30:51 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: H2 collision all the articles I've read about the Dodge trucks refer to "spaghetti" frames... I had an '85 3/4t 4x4... sad... neither of those vehicles is "solid"... notice how the dually dodge looks tweaked... I saw a 3/4t pu get tagged by a little ranger in town and the dodge was tweaked in a major way... like a pretzel... 25 mph... john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:48:14 -0700 From: "Dalan Hawker" Subject: RE: fsj: H2 collision Rumour has it that the H2 apparently hit a Semi before smashing into the Dodge. Apparently the article appeared in the paper. Any confirmation of this? Dalan Hawker Dhawker-at-sd68.bc.ca -----Original Message----- From: Phillips, Scott [mailto:scott.phillips-at-attws.com] Sent: June 10, 2003 8:18 AM To: fsj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: fsj: H2 collision I hate to be the moron to point this out but look at the passanger compartments on both vehicles. Looks to me like there was no intrusion into the passanger compartments by the drivetrain or front end. Also it looks to me as if the doors on both vehicles are able to open almost freely (well the passanger side door on the H2 is the exception). I'd say that they fulfilled their design creation by dissipating the energy of the crash into crumple zones rather than passing it straight to the occupants via a super stiff chassis. So I guess in short - they were built to do that in a front end collision. -----Original Message----- Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:47:36 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: fsj: H2 collision http://129.186.79.84/H2.jpg Pic of an H2 after a head-on collision with a Dodge Ram (looks like a dually). Check out the damage on each truck... This is some proof (as if we needed it) that the H2 is junk; basically just a lot of clutter on a very mediocre truck frame, and certainly not worthy of the Hummer name. I am a little disappointed that the Dodge has even that much damage, but I don't know how fast they were going, either. And note that the Dodge seems to have taken all the impact on one corner, where the H2 took it apparently across the entire front. Certainly nothing salvageable on the H2 in front of the human compartment, and likely nothing but small interior pieces in front of the rear doors. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- -- It's all a pigment of your hallucination. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 14:09:23 -0400 From: Mike Polkki Subject: Re: fsj: H2 collision there is a cool story behind that accident. The Owner of the H2 Owns a Hummer, Dodge, Buck Dealer. He sold the ram new. I guess he fell asleep behind the wheel and crashed into the ram. He even gave the ram owners a new truck. I know this because I have family that lives in that town ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:30:51 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: H2 collision all the articles I've read about the Dodge trucks refer to "spaghetti" frames... I had an '85 3/4t 4x4... sad... neither of those vehicles is "solid"... notice how the dually dodge looks tweaked... I saw a 3/4t pu get tagged by a little ranger in town and the dodge was tweaked in a major way... like a pretzel... 25 mph... john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:37:36 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: Adding Power Steering to J-10 A: Looks like a fairly easy job, but do you have a V8 or 6 cyl? I pulled the pump amd box with hoses off the '76 J10 with 360 my son parted and it's on the for sale pile for $50 (can't give much of a guarantee on it though) The 6 cyl uses different brackets and pump pulley. (needs a pulley for the crank as well) From: "Brian Wall" Subject: fsj: Adding Power Steering to J-10 Hi All, It's been a while since I've posted, but I have a new question, and I know you are just the guys to answer it. I've acquired a nice '75 J-10 as a lake truck and would like to add power steering to it if it won't cost an arm and a leg. How do I go about doing it? Thanks, Brian Oklahoma City ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:44:37 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: RE: Adding Power Steering to J-10 A: The good news is the longer shaft is only for rigs that are at least pre-'73. (I believe it's the 3 bolt steering box vs 4 bolt steering box issue and the earlier frames were beefed up due to bending/cracking near the steering box -at-'70) The waterpump and crank pulleys need to match. I'll soon be pulling those off the '73 J4000 360 I'm converting to 4.0L. (360 motor is a core due to spun bearing) From: "Faith Jeff" Subject: fsj: RE: Adding Power Steering to J-10 hi brian- at the very least you'll need: - - - a power steering bear box (get one from a similar year wagoneer) - - - a pump/pulley/reservoir for the fluid (get from the same donor)) - - - hoses to connect the box and pump (again from the same donor) - - - brackets to mount the pump to the engine - - - a fanbelt to spin the pulley - - - a longer steering shaft (between the gear-box and the column) is sometimes required i know that some folks have been able to bolt a new gear-box in the exact same place as their manual steering gear box. others (like me) make their own brackets to mount the box to the frame. i've heard that some j-trucks have a special bracket that go between the box and frame you might to check out... my project's got me in for about 200 bucks in mostly salvage-yard parts to convert a 63 wag. good luck - - -jeff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:32:06 -0700 From: "Dalan Hawker" Subject: RE: fsj: H2 collision Disregard my last message. Seems my GM owning friend is trying to yank my chain about the H2 story. -----Original Message----- From: Dalan Hawker Sent: Tue 10/06/2003 9:48 AM To: fsj-at-digest.net Cc: Subject: RE: fsj: H2 collision Rumour has it that the H2 apparently hit a Semi before smashing into the Dodge. Apparently the article appeared in the paper. Any confirmation of this? Dalan Hawker Dhawker-at-sd68.bc.ca -----Original Message----- From: Phillips, Scott [mailto:scott.phillips-at-attws.com] Sent: June 10, 2003 8:18 AM To: fsj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: fsj: H2 collision I hate to be the moron to point this out but look at the passanger compartments on both vehicles. Looks to me like there was no intrusion into the passanger compartments by the drivetrain or front end. Also it looks to me as if the doors on both vehicles are able to open almost freely (well the passanger side door on the H2 is the exception). I'd say that they fulfilled their design creation by dissipating the energy of the crash into crumple zones rather than passing it straight to the occupants via a super stiff chassis. So I guess in short - they were built to do that in a front end collision. -----Original Message----- Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:47:36 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: fsj: H2 collision http://129.186.79.84/H2.jpg Pic of an H2 after a head-on collision with a Dodge Ram (looks like a dually). Check out the damage on each truck... This is some proof (as if we needed it) that the H2 is junk; basically just a lot of clutter on a very mediocre truck frame, and certainly not worthy of the Hummer name. I am a little disappointed that the Dodge has even that much damage, but I don't know how fast they were going, either. And note that the Dodge seems to have taken all the impact on one corner, where the H2 took it apparently across the entire front. Certainly nothing salvageable on the H2 in front of the human compartment, and likely nothing but small interior pieces in front of the rear doors. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- -- It's all a pigment of your hallucination. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 14:09:23 -0400 From: Mike Polkki Subject: Re: fsj: H2 collision there is a cool story behind that accident. The Owner of the H2 Owns a Hummer, Dodge, Buck Dealer. He sold the ram new. I guess he fell asleep behind the wheel and crashed into the ram. He even gave the ram owners a new truck. I know this because I have family that lives in that town ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:30:51 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: H2 collision all the articles I've read about the Dodge trucks refer to "spaghetti" frames... I had an '85 3/4t 4x4... sad... neither of those vehicles is "solid"... notice how the dually dodge looks tweaked... I saw a 3/4t pu get tagged by a little ranger in town and the dodge was tweaked in a major way... like a pretzel... 25 mph... john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:59:47 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: H2 collision {- http://129.186.79.84/H2.jpg "Phillips, Scott" said: {- I hate to be the moron to point this out but look at the passanger {- compartments on both vehicles. Looks to me like there was no intrusion {- into the passanger compartments by the drivetrain or front end. Also it {- looks to me as if the doors on both vehicles are able to open almost {- freely (well the passanger side door on the H2 is the exception). I'd {- say that they fulfilled their design creation by dissipating the energy {- of the crash into crumple zones rather than passing it straight to the {- occupants via a super stiff chassis. {- {- So I guess in short - they were built to do that in a front end {- collision. Certainly that's what they were designed to do. It's also what a little Honda is designed to do, as per government regulations... what's your point? ;) _My_ point was that a truly "tough" truck (as the H2 is advertised, supposedly carrying on the Hummer name, a statement I am thus arguing against) would most likely have had less damage to the truck itself (_possibly_ at the expense of the opposing vehicle). That's a major reason many of use have FSJs, and big heavy SUVs in general. The Dodge Ram seems to have less damage -- engine may well have been salvagable on that one. (Might be able to replace body panels and maybe a wheel and/or axle and have a good vehicle again. It would obviously take closer inspection to know.) I would bet a real Hummer would have even less damage than the Ram. I'd also bet/hope our own FSJs would come out closer to the Ram, even against a higher-sitting H2. So my point is the H2s are nuthin' but cheap plastik. "Back in the day", cars were made solid and would often withstand a collision with little or no permanent damage, often just cosmetic. (A story comes to mind of my grandparents hitting a deer in the mountains at ~65mph in a '57 Chevy or the like (a mere _car_!), getting out, popping the dent out by hand, and continuing on. Today, that would be several hundred dollars of plastic pieces replaced.) Not only were the passengers not hurt, but the car was in good shape. Today they make the consumer feel warm and fuzzy by talking about air bags and crumple zones -- cars that are _designed_ to be damaged a certain way to protect the owner. And thus, the consumer is happy to pay $750 for a 15mph impact because of all the crumpled pieces, or another $700 to replace each airbag that deployed. Original message: {- Pic of an H2 after a head-on collision with a Dodge Ram (looks like a {- dually). Check out the damage on each truck... This is some proof (as {- if we needed it) that the H2 is junk; basically just a lot of clutter on {- a very mediocre truck frame, and certainly not worthy of the Hummer {- name. {- {- I am a little disappointed that the Dodge has even that much damage, but {- I don't know how fast they were going, either. And note that the Dodge {- seems to have taken all the impact on one corner, where the H2 took it {- apparently across the entire front. {- {- Certainly nothing salvageable on the H2 in front of the human {- compartment, and likely nothing but small interior pieces in front of {- the rear doors. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Honk if you've never seen an Uzi fired from a car window. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:12:09 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: 4 bbl 360 parts for sale Motorcraft 4100 and stock EGR intake $150 obo, both exhaust manifolds (AIR plugged) $25, PS pump and brackets/pulleys $50, heads $40 pair, oil pan $25, TH400 flywheel for unipattern trans $25 (I will check condition of parts before selling. Motor is still currently assembled in my '73 J4000), Autolite alternator and non-AC brackets $25. Rest of the motor (including waterpump, points dist) $50 obo. it has a bad bearing due to running out of oil (don't know which bearing, but the oilpan has a piece in it that looks like a shim and no longer turns, but all rods are still in 1 piece!) Jim Blair, Seattle, WA '84 J10 Black Jack, '86 Comanche 4x4 _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:27:21 -0400 From: "George B. Milam, IV" Subject: Re: fsj: H2 collision I hear ya Dan. I had a lady hit me semi head on in a parking lot going about 10 mph. the impact curled her Jetta hood up and destroyed her cheap plastic bumper. The "Moose" (89 Grand Wag) had a little black paint on the bumper and not even a little ding to be seen. Her bill was 1150.00 and good thing it was her fault. So the reason my GW is called the Moose is that the first time my sister in law rode in it she said "this thing is like a Moose because if some body hits you it's them that will be hurtin" George Milam '89 Grand Wagoneer "Moose" VT - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Black" To: "Full Size Jeeps" Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 3:59 PM Subject: Re: fsj: H2 collision > {- http://129.186.79.84/H2.jpg > > "Phillips, Scott" said: > {- I hate to be the moron to point this out but look at the passanger > {- compartments on both vehicles. Looks to me like there was no intrusion > {- into the passanger compartments by the drivetrain or front end. Also it > {- looks to me as if the doors on both vehicles are able to open almost > {- freely (well the passanger side door on the H2 is the exception). I'd > {- say that they fulfilled their design creation by dissipating the energy > {- of the crash into crumple zones rather than passing it straight to the > {- occupants via a super stiff chassis. > {- > {- So I guess in short - they were built to do that in a front end > {- collision. > > Certainly that's what they were designed to do. It's also what a little > Honda is designed to do, as per government regulations... what's your > point? ;) > > _My_ point was that a truly "tough" truck (as the H2 is advertised, > supposedly carrying on the Hummer name, a statement I am thus arguing > against) would most likely have had less damage to the truck itself > (_possibly_ at the expense of the opposing vehicle). That's a major > reason many of use have FSJs, and big heavy SUVs in general. The Dodge > Ram seems to have less damage -- engine may well have been salvagable on > that one. (Might be able to replace body panels and maybe a wheel > and/or axle and have a good vehicle again. It would obviously take > closer inspection to know.) I would bet a real Hummer would have even > less damage than the Ram. I'd also bet/hope our own FSJs would come out > closer to the Ram, even against a higher-sitting H2. So my point is the > H2s are nuthin' but cheap plastik. > > "Back in the day", cars were made solid and would often withstand a > collision with little or no permanent damage, often just cosmetic. (A > story comes to mind of my grandparents hitting a deer in the mountains > at ~65mph in a '57 Chevy or the like (a mere _car_!), getting out, > popping the dent out by hand, and continuing on. Today, that would be > several hundred dollars of plastic pieces replaced.) Not only were the > passengers not hurt, but the car was in good shape. > > Today they make the consumer feel warm and fuzzy by talking about air > bags and crumple zones -- cars that are _designed_ to be damaged a > certain way to protect the owner. And thus, the consumer is happy to > pay $750 for a 15mph impact because of all the crumpled pieces, or > another $700 to replace each airbag that deployed. > > > Original message: > {- Pic of an H2 after a head-on collision with a Dodge Ram (looks like a > {- dually). Check out the damage on each truck... This is some proof (as > {- if we needed it) that the H2 is junk; basically just a lot of clutter on > {- a very mediocre truck frame, and certainly not worthy of the Hummer > {- name. > {- > {- I am a little disappointed that the Dodge has even that much damage, but > {- I don't know how fast they were going, either. And note that the Dodge > {- seems to have taken all the impact on one corner, where the H2 took it > {- apparently across the entire front. > {- > {- Certainly nothing salvageable on the H2 in front of the human > {- compartment, and likely nothing but small interior pieces in front of > {- the rear doors. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----- > Honk if you've never seen an Uzi fired from a car window. > -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1947 **************************