From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Jun 26 19:04:21 2003 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, June 27 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1958 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: transmission options Re: fsj: transmission options Re: fsj: transmission options fsj: Tuning Troubles fsj: the 300CD is alive and mobile! time to purge the fleet... fsj: flight over Snohomish fsj: How good is Comanche 4 cylinder? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 02:05:06 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: transmission options A: The TH400 came with 23 spline and NP208 in early '80's Chevs (I'm looking for a core one right now so I can put a NP208 in my '73 J4000) That spline will work with your NP229 (the only factory one that will) The 700R4 is actually a TH350 with O/D. I forget what the TH400 version was called now. Oh yeah! I just remembered! 4L80. BTW, the 700R4 comes in 2 versions too. 4L60 and 4L60E The E stands for electronic control (requires a computer to operate) You would be best off with a 700R4 non-electronic from an early GM diesel. (need to change the torque converter though! Gas and diesel have different stall speeds!) Then you need an adapter to bolt the trans to your AMC motor (unless you have other ideas ). From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: transmission options Oh, P.S., a friend says with the overdrive it's called a TH700R4. Does that sound right? {- Does anybody know if a TH400 with overdrive will attach nicely to an {- NP229? (It IS the 229 that's in my '88 GWag, right?) Do I need some {- sort of adapter, or will it bolt up, or am I SOL? - - - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- Students. If we could just get rid of all the students. - -- Mr. Beach - - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org - -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:12:34 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: transmission options I said: {- Does anybody know if a TH400 with overdrive will attach nicely to an {- NP229? (It IS the 229 that's in my '88 GWag, right?) Do I need some {- sort of adapter, or will it bolt up, or am I SOL? {- Oh, P.S., a friend says with the overdrive it's called a TH700R4. Does {- that sound right? "Jim B" said: {- A: The TH400 came with 23 spline and NP208 in early '80's Chevs (I'm {- looking for a core one right now so I can put a NP208 in my '73 J4000) {- That spline will work with your NP229 (the only factory one that will) {- The 700R4 is actually a TH350 with O/D. I forget what the TH400 version {- was called now. Oh yeah! I just remembered! 4L80. BTW, the 700R4 comes {- in 2 versions too. 4L60 and 4L60E The E stands for electronic control {- (requires a computer to operate) You would be best off with a 700R4 {- non-electronic from an early GM diesel. (need to change the torque {- converter though! Gas and diesel have different stall speeds!) Then you {- need an adapter to bolt the trans to your AMC motor (unless you have {- other ideas ). Ummm, actually, yes, I _do_ have other ideas... But I'll take things in order. After reading a few web pages, I did figure out part of what you just said: the 700R4 is actually the replacement for the TH350 with overdrive. It later was re-named the 4L60. And it was adapter later, as well as coming out with the E version, with electronic stuff -- all of which it would be best to avoid. (See http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/th700r4.htm .) And I called Novak, and they said the 700R4 would not bolt to the NP229, nor did they have an adapter or know of one. However, I did NOT know about the 4L80 -- so let me verify this: The 4L80 is a (newer) TH400 with overdrive? And it will hook up easily to an NP229? Will it need an adapter, or just hook right up? Do I have to count splines? And can anybody tell me absolutely that, assuming it's stock (which I believe it is), my '88 GWag has an NP229? (It's at the shop, so I can't look at it easily.) As for my "other ideas"... Basically, I'm leaning fairly heavily toward putting a brand new (crate) Chevy 350 in it. I know, evil evil, but I don't want to just rebuild the 360 and use it, and 401s are hard to come by. And in the end, though it'll be considerably more expensive to adapt initially, the 350 will be cheaper and easier to modify, repair, etc. in the future, especially to step up the power and get a better fuel injection system (just swap a multiport on eventually). So anyway, IIRC, I found an adapter from the 350 to the TF727, but it was about $500. For the same price, or maybe marginally more, I was hoping to just go ahead and find a tranny with overdrive that would bolt right to the 350, and hopefully the NP229, too. Definitely sounds like the 4L60 (TH350 decendent) would pretty much require changing my whole driveline and using expensive adapters besides. But if the 4L80 (TH400 decendent) has overdrive and will bolt up to both the 350 and NP229... then hey, I win! And if anybody wants a list of the pros and cons of the 360, 401, and Chevy 350 in my current situation, I'd be happy to elaborate on what I've found so far. But again, if I can find a decent (strong, hopefully with overdrive) tranny that will bolt to both the 350 and NP229, I think I'm going to go that way. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lemme in, Pike! I'm hungry! -- Ben - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:32:40 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: fsj: transmission options On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 09:12:34AM -0500, Dan Black wrote: > And can anybody tell me absolutely that, assuming it's stock (which I > believe it is), my '88 GWag has an NP229? (It's at the shop, so I can't > look at it easily.) > > As for my "other ideas"... Basically, I'm leaning fairly heavily toward > putting a brand new (crate) Chevy 350 in it. I know, evil evil, but I > don't want to just rebuild the 360 and use it, and 401s are hard to come > by. And in the end, though it'll be considerably more expensive to > adapt initially, the 350 will be cheaper and easier to modify, repair, > etc. in the future, especially to step up the power and get a better > fuel injection system (just swap a multiport on eventually). About the only thing you are correct there with is that MPFI for a chevy small block is easier to find than for an AMC v8. When you drop in an engine, THAT is the time for stepping up the power. It's a lot easier to stick different cam and pistons in an engine while you are rebuilding it. Even still, the extremely high cost of adapting will far outdo the perceived benefits of cheaper and easier parts down the road. This has been proven time and time again. This doesn't even take into account that the 350 chevy is a very cheap (read as not inexpensive, but CHEAP). The nickel content is way low, core shifts easily in a stocker, and truth be told, the four bolt 350 is WEAKER in strength than a TWO bolt olds or AMC bottom end, just because the actual BLOCK is that much weaker. Then we don't need to go into the advantages of lifter diameter that AMC has over chevy, etc, etc. > So anyway, IIRC, I found an adapter from the 350 to the TF727, but it > was about $500. For the same price, or maybe marginally more, I was > hoping to just go ahead and find a tranny with overdrive that would bolt > right to the 350, and hopefully the NP229, too. Definitely sounds like > the 4L60 (TH350 decendent) would pretty much require changing my whole > driveline and using expensive adapters besides. But if the 4L80 (TH400 > decendent) has overdrive and will bolt up to both the 350 and NP229... > then hey, I win! To be honest, you're probably better off finding a jeep with an NP208 and snagging its driveshaft and transfercase, then putting the chevy input into the jeep case, and running that. You could easily recoup your costs by selling the NP229, and then you don't have to worry about an expensive viscous coupler. > And if anybody wants a list of the pros and cons of the 360, 401, and > Chevy 350 in my current situation, I'd be happy to elaborate on what > I've found so far. But again, if I can find a decent (strong, hopefully > with overdrive) tranny that will bolt to both the 350 and NP229, I think > I'm going to go that way. Well, I'd like to hear what has you going down that route. And, what it all comes down to is it's your truck. But I've heard enough people do these swaps for the reasons you've described, and ended up spending WAY more money than they would have for a pretty gnarly 360. Somewhere around, I have a few recipes for a stroked 360 that gets to around 385-390 CI, and doesn't use a hard to find 401 block, I'd be more than happy to dig them up for you. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 74 Cherokee 2 door (258 1bbl, T15, D20, open 3.54 d44's) 77 Cherokee 4 door S (401 4bbl, TH400, BW QT, open 3.54 d44's) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:18:22 -0400 From: James Isennock Subject: fsj: Tuning Troubles I have just added an Edelbrock Performer Cam, new timing chain, SP2P (low rise dual plane non-EGR) intake, Edelbrock 1406 carb, and MSD 6A to the 360 in my 87 G-Wag. I had previously installed a TFI coil and cap. I removed the air pump and air manifolds from the exhaust and none of the other smog equipment is currently connected. The start up and cam break-in went O.K. (used a 600 Holley for this part - then swapped to the Edelbrock) however, when I connect the vac. hose from the distributor to the carb (either manifold or timed) the engine quits immediately. I can see with my timing light the timing starting to advance as it quits. I have looked for vacuum leaks and found none. The timing is set at about 10 degrees advanced at idle with the vac disconnected. I don't know exact idle speed as my tach doesn't like the MSD. Vacuum is approx 16" at idle. This hasn't been on the road yet but it seems to run fine in the yard. I want to know why it quits when I hook up the distributor vac advance hose. I also am curious as to why the timed port on the edelbrock carb has any vacuum at idle anyway, I thought the timed port didn't receive vacuum until the throttle was into the main metering circuit. The idle mix screws are about 2-1/2 turns out right now and an additional turn in either direction really doesn't seem to make much difference. I welcome any and all advice. Thanks, Jay Isennock ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 23:21:29 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: the 300CD is alive and mobile! time to purge the fleet... reassembled, filled the fluids... connected the battery, turned the key, glowed it, and it lit right off!!! Easier to start then my 190D!!! smooth idle... rev'd right up... oh man... it's beautiful... Checked for leaks, backed it out of the carport and drove it up the driveway, turned it around and drove it back down, turned it around and parked it out in the drive next to the 190D... The dash lights didn't work, and neither did the gauges, so there may be some connections that worked loose, but the sunroof, rear defroster, windows and radio all worked. :) http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/80-300CD-rides-again also put some pix up of the 190D shop manual, chilton's commercial version I think... wiring diagrams mainly. see 190d shop-man-pix. The '80 300CD runs very nicely... felt good driving it just the short jaunt... Will change tranny fluid and oil, do some other cleanup and checks and take it out on the road tomorrow night. :) sweet machine... tomorrow night I may decide to ditch the idea of a '91 300D and go for a mid 80's 300CD with the turbo... :) driveway is getting full... let's see, there's the '87 cherokee, the '80 300cd, the '79 cherokee, the '85 190d, and maybe even the '91 cherokee for sale... ;) how do I get myself in these situations anyway? ;) At least my son has settled in on his '89 XJ... which leaves us the 35x12.5's and the '79 Cherokee Golden Eagle to sell... I have a dream, by the end of the year, SuperDawg will be home, the wife will have a nice XJ or WJ that she likes, and I'll have a nice clean Diesel Benz to commute in... :) three vehicles and the trailer... imagine a clear driveway... :) I'm sure it won't last, someone will wreck a Benz or a Cherokee or an FSJ and it'll find it's way to Snohomish... :) the home of wayward wheels... later, john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 00:02:57 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: flight over Snohomish took a flight over snohomish monday night... http://www.wagoneers.com/fotos/2003/June-24-flight-over-Snohomish/ the animation is a large file (3+Meg)... it's the approach to Harvey Field runaway 32... will put a few more pix up in the directory in the next few days... light was too low for the digital camera. :( john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:42:57 -0700 From: "allyoop" Subject: fsj: How good is Comanche 4 cylinder? I know this is somewhat off topic, but no more so than a Diesel Mercedes ;-) I'm looking at an '86 Comanche pickup with 4 cylinders, five-speed manual and Command Track two-speed transfer case. Hoping for better mileage than my '73 J4300 now delivers. How good is this drivetrain, and what should I know about it? Truck has 56K miles. Walt Greenwood Everett, WA ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1958 **************************