From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Jul 1 08:48:40 2003 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, July 1 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1963 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Re: Re: XJ question - U NEED A TRACK BAR - wobble -o- death... fsj: AMC 4cyl Blues RE: fsj: factory FSM fsj: Things to look for fsj: RE: Things to look for fsj: RE: Things to look for Re: fsj: AMC 4cyl Blues Re: fsj: factory FSM Re: fsj: RE: cleaning the driveway Re: fsj: Re: XJ question - U NEED A TRACK BAR - wobble -o- death... RE: fsj: RE: cleaning the driveway Re: fsj: factory FSM fsj: RE: cleaning the driveway Re: fsj: factory FSM Re: fsj: factory FSM fsj: the final test... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 06:48:27 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Re: XJ question - U NEED A TRACK BAR - wobble -o- death... At 06:49 AM 6/30/2003 -0400, Neal Hoover wrote: >sorry to butt in here, but i know XJs pretty thuroughly. john is right, >that the track bar can be the culprit - especially if it is a stock unit. >but don't dismiss the dampener either. they come from the factory with one >for a reason. yeah, but even with a good stabilizer the death wobble occurs... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 06:59:44 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: AMC 4cyl Blues I tried very hard to find a late '90s Cherokee 4cyl 4dr 4WD 5spd with A/C at the Jeep dealers. Could not do it. I just don't fit their mold. Most salesman tried to talk me out of it('cause they didn't have one in stock) Now the Liberty's are interesting, but a little too small and heavy. Maybe when the diesel gets here... - - Landon ========== From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: to comanche or not A: According to many AMC sources, the GM Iron Puke never made it's way into XJ or MJ. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the 2.8L! (although some did get the better 2.8L in late '86 just before the changeover. Early had 2 piece rear seal and later was 1 piece, same as Chev S10. I was tempted to get one and put the S10 2.8L and EFI in) Late '86 is when the V6 went away and they put the 4.0L in (2.54L AMC was still available till '99 I hear, but not too popular) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:49:25 -0400 From: James Isennock Subject: RE: fsj: factory FSM faxon (i think) is the company I bought my FSJ photocopy from. Good quality, they did have a web presence, don't recall the address. Only problem I have is that Jeep didn't issue new manuals each year so my 87 Manual is primarily an 85 Manual with "updates" at the end - Lame Lame Lame. Jay Isennock - -----Original Message----- From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:46 AM To: Neal Hoover; fsj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: fsj: factory FSM At 06:50 AM 6/30/2003 -0400, Neal Hoover wrote: >so, you're saying that no one still manufactures them? can't get a "new" >copy for myself? >Neal A. Hoover nope, hit swap meets, used book stores and ebay... there are literature outfits that sell photocopies, quality varies... a few listers have had copies made over the years... john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 07:04:29 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: Things to look for I always look for the vise grips on the oil line when looking at an old Jeep. It's a sure telltale. :) - - Landon I pulled apart the 360 from the '73 J4000, and confirmed my prognosis. 1 bad bearing on the crank someplace keeping it from turning over, and the cam still turns to the extent of the timing chain slack, but the timing cover is marked from it sliding forward. and it looks recently rebuilt. The underside of the valve covers is cleaner than many newer engines. It ran low on oil because of the plastic oil pressure line popped on the previous owner, leaving oil all over the underside of the hood and intake and there were vise grips on what was left of the line. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:04:22 -0400 From: James Isennock Subject: fsj: RE: Things to look for I've got vice grips holding the exhaust to the manifold on my CJ is that bad?? James Isennock - -----Original Message----- From: Tesar Landon-r16884 [mailto:landon.tesar-at-motorola.com] Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 10:04 AM To: 'fsj-at-digest.net' Subject: fsj: Things to look for I always look for the vise grips on the oil line when looking at an old Jeep. It's a sure telltale. :) - - Landon I pulled apart the 360 from the '73 J4000, and confirmed my prognosis. 1 bad bearing on the crank someplace keeping it from turning over, and the cam still turns to the extent of the timing chain slack, but the timing cover is marked from it sliding forward. and it looks recently rebuilt. The underside of the valve covers is cleaner than many newer engines. It ran low on oil because of the plastic oil pressure line popped on the previous owner, leaving oil all over the underside of the hood and intake and there were vise grips on what was left of the line. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 07:21:21 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: RE: Things to look for the new fancy plastic coating might be in trouble. I don't think it illustrates main bearing oil starvation. I finally gave up and took the manifolds to a muffler shop. They heated them up and installed new studs for $35 or so. - - L - -----Original Message----- From: James Isennock [mailto:Jisennock-at-cce-apg.com] Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:04 AM To: Tesar Landon-r16884; fsj-at-digest.net Subject: RE: Things to look for I've got vice grips holding the exhaust to the manifold on my CJ is that bad?? James Isennock - -----Original Message----- From: Tesar Landon-r16884 [mailto:landon.tesar-at-motorola.com] Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 10:04 AM To: 'fsj-at-digest.net' Subject: fsj: Things to look for I always look for the vise grips on the oil line when looking at an old Jeep. It's a sure telltale. :) - - Landon I pulled apart the 360 from the '73 J4000, and confirmed my prognosis. 1 bad bearing on the crank someplace keeping it from turning over, and the cam still turns to the extent of the timing chain slack, but the timing cover is marked from it sliding forward. and it looks recently rebuilt. The underside of the valve covers is cleaner than many newer engines. It ran low on oil because of the plastic oil pressure line popped on the previous owner, leaving oil all over the underside of the hood and intake and there were vise grips on what was left of the line. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 08:16:32 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: AMC 4cyl Blues On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Tesar Landon-r16884 wrote: >-->I tried very hard to find a late '90s Cherokee 4cyl 4dr 4WD 5spd with A/C at the Jeep dealers. Could not do it. I just don't fit their mold. Most salesman tried to talk me out of it('cause they didn't have one in stock) Now the Liberty's are inter esting, but a little too small and heavy. Maybe when the diesel gets here... yeah, trying to convince my wife to ride in a Liberty, they're quieter and ride nicer then the WJ, but they are butt ugly... handle worse and are underpowered. john >--> >-->- Landon >-->========== >-->From: "Jim B" >-->Subject: Re: fsj: to comanche or not >--> >-->A: According to many AMC sources, the GM Iron Puke never made it's way into XJ >-->or MJ. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the 2.8L! (although some did >-->get the better 2.8L in late '86 just before the changeover. Early had 2 piece >-->rear seal and later was 1 piece, same as Chev S10. I was tempted to get one >-->and put the S10 2.8L and EFI in) Late '86 is when the V6 went away and they >-->put the 4.0L in (2.54L AMC was still available till '99 I hear, but not too >-->popular) >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:09:47 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: factory FSM A: A couple places to get them are http://www.oly4x4.com and http://www.books4cars.com (they are only a couple miles from me) and Zack at Z&Mjeeps (.com I think. He's on the big list) At 07:23 PM 6/29/2003 -0400, Neal Hoover wrote: >i'm about to get started on combining my 2 J-10s into one rig. but before i >do, i'd like to get an FSM. anyone know of a good place to get one for a >'76 at a decent price? >thanks! >Neal Hoover ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:12:52 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: RE: cleaning the driveway A: I'm approaching my quota as well this year! Somepeople put the vehicles in their spouse's name to double the amount, but I'm not sure of the legalities involved. From: "Paul and Megan Kershner" Subject: fsj: RE: cleaning the driveway Incredible!! In case you didn't know, the State of Washington has a limit on how many cars you can sell annually without being a dealer. I think the number is 8 or 10 and you, my friend, have surpassed that, I think. In any case, I cannot believe the number of times you change your mind on a vehicle! I sure hope that J10 is done soon. Come on Curtis, let's get that thing done so John's driveway can slow down on automobile throughput! Paul Kershner '84 GW - had it for 2 years before being totalled by a deer (after Ouray). '91 GW - have had it for almost 1 year - never even thought about putting it up for sale... '00 Volvo V70 - 3 years and haven't thought about selling it either. '65 Barracuda - 15 years (but it's a project car and I don't wanna sell it. '92 Chrysler Imperial - 2 months (inherited from Dad) - gonna sell it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:26:39 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: XJ question - U NEED A TRACK BAR - wobble -o- death... A: I had the trackbar come loose at the frame on the driver's side of almost every XJ/MJ I've had. I first felt DW on the way to Ouray in my '86 Commanche (in Boise, Idaho at 60 mph. I thought one of my tires separated!) What seems to trigger them is too much toe out with slack in the suspension (trackbar or balljoints). The steering gets drawn to one side by a bump or rut in the road, then snaps back the other way (by the auto return feature of the steering box) till it goes too far and the steering box snaps it back in the opposite direction till it builds up a resonance of snapping back and forth. I ended up taking the power steering belt off till I got a new trackbar near Salt Lake city. It was fine till one of the CSK delivery drivers in CO backed into my left front tire while I was inside trying to get a master and slave cylinder kit for my Commanche (I think the heat finally killed it. It leaked since the day I got it. In fact, that was the reason I got it cheap. They thought the clutch was shot. Same clutch lasted me 60,000 more miles and the new owner still hasn't killed it!) On the way home, I tore up all 4 of my tires on the side that was hit (I rotated them and drove till the cords stuck through. First one was toast by the time I got back to the store to file a complaint. Truck needed a total alignment with special angle shims and it was fine again. 3" lift and 4x4 conversion was done the day before (heck, 1 hour before!) we left. From: john Subject: fsj: Re: XJ question - U NEED A TRACK BAR - wobble -o- death... At 12:41 AM 6/30/2003 -0600, Tacoma White wrote: > Hi John... just wondering if you've ever had a steering damper quit on > you on an XJ? no, but I've had track bars fail. :) known as the wobble-o-death, or the death wobble... will scare you to Jesus if you ain't already there... if you are you'll be doing some serious prayer... happened to me the first time at 65mph.... not something I care to experience again... :) >Getting awful tire vibes at about 55, only thing wrong appears to be the >leaking damper... a cup of coffee that your track bar is bad, it mounts to the driver's side frame and then to the right side down by the spring... if it clunks or moves at all it's the problem. :) see if you can read this: http://www.wagoneers.com/XJ/tech/Steering/xj-steering-labeled.jpg more pix: http://www.wagoneers.com/XJ/tech/XJ-trackbar/ http://www.wagoneers.com/XJ/tech/xj-trackbar-mount.jpg >u joints good, bearings solid, driveshaft good, even all the tire weights >still on the rims... >I'm taking the KISS tack right now, and will be getting a new damper >regardless.. don't waste your money... I pulled one completely off and it made no real difference... have a super-HD OME front stabilizer I'll sell ya cheap if you want to upgrade. :) >just wondering if you've run across that? oh yeah... a few times... and survived... ;) > On my 78 it makes no difference but then again I'm running 12.50's on > that one. yeah, but you got a real frame and leaf springs under that bad boy... XJ's are great, but they have this one issue... well, maybe a couple others, but they are pretty few in the grand scheme of things. :) >thanks! >Tacoma ur welcome john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:17:25 -0400 From: James Isennock Subject: RE: fsj: RE: cleaning the driveway Heres my current list; '01 Tahoe (2 months) - (for the wife) 96 Tahoe (3 years) - (wifes last one, supposed to sell today, waiting on $$$) 87 G-Wagoneer - ( 1 year) supposed to be my daily driver currently experiencing difficulties 78 CJ7 - (3 or 4 years) awaiting a tub transplant seldom driven 'cause its just way too rusty 88 Dodge W-250 (3 years) - current daily driver waiting for G-Wag issues to be resolved 74 Dodge Dart Sport (3 or 4 years) - soon to be sold just needs cleaning up 79 Dodge Red Express (9 or 10 years) - all new wood, paint and drivetrain - awaiting reassembly 84 Wagoneer - (1 year) for parts 88 Ramcharger - ( 2 years) for 360 and 727 to put into CJ7 or Wagoneer someday 2 73 Dodge Chargers - ( 2 years) just stored here for a friend but I think he's forgotten about them 90 YJ (pending)-Trying to buy this wrecked from a coworker for tub swap to 78 CJ Jay - -----Original Message----- From: Jim B [mailto:carnuck-at-hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 12:13 PM To: local Jeep list Subject: Re: fsj: RE: cleaning the driveway A: I'm approaching my quota as well this year! Somepeople put the vehicles in their spouse's name to double the amount, but I'm not sure of the legalities involved. From: "Paul and Megan Kershner" Subject: fsj: RE: cleaning the driveway Incredible!! In case you didn't know, the State of Washington has a limit on how many cars you can sell annually without being a dealer. I think the number is 8 or 10 and you, my friend, have surpassed that, I think. In any case, I cannot believe the number of times you change your mind on a vehicle! I sure hope that J10 is done soon. Come on Curtis, let's get that thing done so John's driveway can slow down on automobile throughput! Paul Kershner '84 GW - had it for 2 years before being totalled by a deer (after Ouray). '91 GW - have had it for almost 1 year - never even thought about putting it up for sale... '00 Volvo V70 - 3 years and haven't thought about selling it either. '65 Barracuda - 15 years (but it's a project car and I don't wanna sell it. '92 Chrysler Imperial - 2 months (inherited from Dad) - gonna sell it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:37:29 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: factory FSM A: The quality of the ones Zack sells has improved tremendously! (I went looking for his address on the list, then it hit me! He advertises in FSJ Magazine and I just got my new one!) zmjeeps-at-desupernet.net is his email and the site is http://home.supernet.com/~zmjeeps for '62 through '91 Full Size Jeep parts (mostly new old stock he gets from dealership closeouts) and literature. I think Brent www.bjsoffroad.com gets some stuff from him too. He recently turned this into a full time biz, so anyone that bought before and had a complaint with the length of time it took to get things out, it has improved VERY much! From: john Subject: Re: fsj: factory FSM At 06:50 AM 6/30/2003 -0400, Neal Hoover wrote: >so, you're saying that no one still manufactures them? can't get a "new" >copy for myself? >Neal A. Hoover nope, hit swap meets, used book stores and ebay... there are literature outfits that sell photocopies, quality varies... a few listers have had copies made over the years... john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:57:27 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: RE: cleaning the driveway A: My wife would kill me! LOL! I've already thinned my herd some. Currently residing on my property are '01 Subaru (wife's rig that may go back soon due to salesman's lies) '84 J10 (Mine, tho she's trying to claim it to replace her bru) '82 Eagle wagon (temporary wheels after I sold my other 4 running vehicles that didn't work out because the torque converter locks up at off idle) '81 Dodge Wideone van (rolling storage I was planning to go to the fleamarkets with, but I still can't find the custom RH axle shaft that is 1 foot longer than stock. No-one can make one, so I'm going to have to custome build something and soon! I'll probably use the Dana 44 short inner shaft from a vacuum front axle and drill a stock shaft to put the sleeve over and lock in place. (the dana 60 rear has the same small spline count, which is why they twist in the first place!) I'm tempted to get one of those temporary axle lockers where you pull your rear cover and bind it between the spider gears, but haven't refound the supplier yet. '77 AMX hatchback 304 998 auto nice body and full gauges, but driver's seat is broken and it needs an alignment (for sale with title, but no motor), but I needed the motor right away for: '73 J4000 pickup 304 (was 360 4bbl on the parts list I posted) TH400/QT with part time kit (probably, as it has hubs and doesn't roll with them turned off and the trans in park), soon to be a 1 ton tow rig (the one my wife sez will be my low rider compared to "her" monster truck, Black Jack) with '76 J20 rear Dana 60 FF 8 lug with 3.72 gears (in place of the OEM D60-2) and I'm looking for a matching Chev 3/4 ton with 3.73 and 8 lug front (so I can go open knuckle and cut down the steering radius) Original Message ----- From: James Isennock Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:33 AM To: 'Jim B'; local Jeep list Subject: RE: fsj: RE: cleaning the driveway Heres my current list; ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:27:24 -0400 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: Re: fsj: factory FSM thanks for the input on locating an FSM. to pass along what i found out today, i called Dymont. they don't carry anything older than 10 years old. but, they gave me a number to Bishko. they reprint old FSMs and sell them. i ordered a 750 page book for $68 today! their toll free number is.... 800-544-3312 hope this helps someone out. Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim B" To: "local Jeep list" Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 12:09 PM Subject: Re: fsj: factory FSM > A: A couple places to get them are http://www.oly4x4.com and > http://www.books4cars.com (they are only a couple miles from me) and Zack at > Z&Mjeeps (.com I think. He's on the big list) > > At 07:23 PM 6/29/2003 -0400, Neal Hoover wrote: > >i'm about to get started on combining my 2 J-10s into one rig. but before i > >do, i'd like to get an FSM. anyone know of a good place to get one for a > >'76 at a decent price? > >thanks! > >Neal Hoover ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:32:48 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: factory FSM that's who I got my '81 manual from, photocopy... was more then that. but it worked... worth it even for a copy. :) john At 07:27 PM 6/30/2003 -0400, Neal Hoover wrote: >thanks for the input on locating an FSM. to pass along what i found out >today, i called Dymont. they don't carry anything older than 10 years old. >but, they gave me a number to Bishko. they reprint old FSMs and sell them. >i ordered a 750 page book for $68 today! >their toll free number is.... >800-544-3312 >hope this helps someone out. > >Neal A. Hoover >Project '76 J-10 >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jim B" >To: "local Jeep list" >Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 12:09 PM >Subject: Re: fsj: factory FSM > > > > A: A couple places to get them are http://www.oly4x4.com and > > http://www.books4cars.com (they are only a couple miles from me) and Zack >at > > Z&Mjeeps (.com I think. He's on the big list) > > > > At 07:23 PM 6/29/2003 -0400, Neal Hoover wrote: > > >i'm about to get started on combining my 2 J-10s into one rig. but >before i > > >do, i'd like to get an FSM. anyone know of a good place to get one for a > > >'76 at a decent price? > > >thanks! > > >Neal Hoover - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:41:46 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: the final test... well... I had the cashier's check all made out... I was ready to buy the '87 300D Turbo, knowing that it needed some repairs... but I figured I'd purchased one vehicle without my wife's review and it turned out that neither of us liked it... SOOOOOO... I said to myself, self, if the wife doesn't like it, don't buy it... we get there... she looks at, so far, so good... she goes to sit down and her seat hadn't even fully made contact and she said no way, it's old and I ain't sitting on these hard old seats again... I'm not kidding, nothing compressed, that's how fast the decision was... couldn't talk her out of it either... :) But, the good news is that she's going to keep the '87 Cherokee and we'll sell the '91, which works for me since I like the '87 much more. Which is really strange since the '91 only has 116,000 miles, runs great, has new tires, the best lift on the market (old man emu), is super clean, power windows, cruise and everything works... not sure what it is about it, but neither of us like it... I think it's the gray interior... we tend to prefer tan interiors... :) So, it looks like I'm keeping the '85 190D and the '87 Cherokee and selling the '91 Cherokee and the '80 300CD. The '85 190D is almost finished... did the math and I'm into it about $3,900 at this point anyway... soon as I install the a/c pump it's done. :) So, soon as I get a permanent job we'll buy a new(er) WJ and then sell the '87 Cherokee. Still looking forward to SuperDawg being done... it's possible that my wife will take a liking to him and we'll just have the Benz and the J10... but we'll see... there's no shortage of changes in the vehicular situation at this address... :) Hey, if it wasn't fun I probably wouldn't do it. :) Since I can't make up my mind I just buy 'em all. :) Now, for those of you citing how long you've had your car, trying to make me feel bad ;), how many have been married for more then 28 years? (to the same person too. ;) :) Ok, some of you aren't even that old... ;) Oh well, this worked out ok... saved about $200 in autotrader ads and get to keep the nice gold '87. :) later, john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1963 **************************