From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Jul 11 08:49:15 2003 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, July 11 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1971 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: Towing with Jeeps and swaying Re: fsj: Re: Towing with Jeeps and swaying Re: fsj: Re: Towing with Jeeps and swaying Re: fsj: Re: Towing with Jeeps and swaying Re: fsj: Re: Towing with Jeeps and swaying Re: fsj: Towing with Jeeps and swaying RE: fsj: Towing with Jeeps and swaying fsj: Re: Fw: GoodYear MTR review fsj: Re: Re: Fw: GoodYear MTR review Re: fsj: Re: Re: Fw: GoodYear MTR review FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:29:32 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Towing with Jeeps and swaying In a message dated 7/10/2003 12:35:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net writes: >From: "Stephen D. Thompson" > >Are Coopers any good? If not, I will probably go with BFGs for >dry, and BFGs or Nokias for studs. That9s probably a grand at least in >tires though so will have to take that one step at a time. I have noticed that my '71 Wagoneer is very susceptible to body roll in crosswinds, particularly when heavily loaded. Some of the worst were experienced between Baker City, Oregon and Boise, and along the Columbia Gorge. Improvements I've noticed in order of occurrence are: new steering components and front wheel bearings, new rear wheel bearings, BFG ATs in place of Sears Roadhandlers (both run at 50 psi), and Hellwig overload springs. My Wag has no sway bars. The addition of such would make a huge difference as well. I just bought a set of Cooper Discoverers for my wife's Bronco. They were significantly cheaper than the BFG's. I looked at Les Schwab tires and didn't like what I saw. The Cooper Discoverer tread design has been around a long time and continues to get good reviews. The science has evolved since they first came out, but they are a good combination of quiet and traction for mostly-pavement use. One other significant consideration for me is that the BFG ATs hydroplane a little more easily than most other comparable tires. They also offer better dry traction, but you can't have everything. I didn't want my wife to have to remember that she was using traction tires when she hits the rare rainstorm at highway speeds. We've only had the Cooper's a couple of months, but so far they seem to be a good choice. I used it to pull the neighbors 3500 lb ski boat a few days ago and the tires did fine on the boat launch. The BFG ATs are acceptable in snow, but no substitute for a real snow tire like a Nokia. They did fine on a midnight run from Bend to Klamath Falls in a snowstorm, but I wouldn't want to depend on them for regular snow use. The BFG's meet my needs because I use one tire all year long and rarely see snow. When I used to invest in snow tires the Nokias were head and shoulders above the rest - without studs. Now I keep one set of used studded tires around for my wife's use during the occasional ice storm (worst winter weather we get). They never have great tread, but it's the studs that make the difference in ice anyway. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 Cherokee Chief '78 F-250 4x4 '88 Bronco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:53:56 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Towing with Jeeps and swaying On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 Brazzadog-at-aol.com wrote: >-->mostly-pavement use. One other significant consideration for me is that the BFG ATs >-->hydroplane a little more easily than most other comparable tires. They also >-->offer better dry traction, but you can't have everything. I didn't want my wife the older style BFG AT's had a problem - needed to be siped, KO's don't. :) have a set on the '91, vastly different... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) The revolt is underway, you can not stop it. FEAR THE PENGUIN!!!! May the SOURCE be With GNU - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:57:19 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Towing with Jeeps and swaying In a message dated 7/10/2003 2:36:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, john-at-wagoneers.com writes: >the older style BFG AT's had a problem - needed to be siped, KO's don't. :) >have a set on the '91, vastly different... Point taken. I'm running two sets of pre-KO ATs. Siping would probably help them. I had thought about taking them to Les Schwab to have them siped but the store near me recently drew my ire by refusing to work with tires that weren't originally sold by Les Schwab. If they don't want my business I'll happily take it elsewhere and siping isn't that important to me. As for the KO's, I have to admit being a little dissappointed at the slight tread design change. I looks to me like it compromises what the AT was good at in order to be a more "all purpose" tire. Most "all terrain" tread designs these days seem to look like what "all season" tires used to. I think tire manufacturers are watering down the "all terrain" concept to protect themselves from ignorant SUV drivers that never check the air in their tires, never adjust their driving to suit the vehicle or weather conditions, and blame their equipment for their stupidity. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:21:04 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Towing with Jeeps and swaying les schwab used to be good at customer service, but here they charge more then discount tires to move tires around on different rims and rebalance... I pretty much gave up on les schwab after that tire blew out... perfect tread, no sidewall left... junk. I'm pretty impressed by the AT KO's... amazing improvement on both wet and dry road, look to clean better in mud/dirt too... no snow yet to test... doubt I'll see any before the '91 XJ is sold either. ;) john On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 Brazzadog-at-aol.com wrote: >-->In a message dated 7/10/2003 2:36:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, >-->john-at-wagoneers.com writes: >--> >-->>the older style BFG AT's had a problem - needed to be siped, KO's don't. :) >-->>have a set on the '91, vastly different... >--> >-->Point taken. I'm running two sets of pre-KO ATs. Siping would probably help >-->them. I had thought about taking them to Les Schwab to have them siped but >-->the store near me recently drew my ire by refusing to work with tires that >-->weren't originally sold by Les Schwab. If they don't want my business I'll >-->happily take it elsewhere and siping isn't that important to me. >--> >-->As for the KO's, I have to admit being a little dissappointed at the slight >-->tread design change. I looks to me like it compromises what the AT was good at >-->in order to be a more "all purpose" tire. Most "all terrain" tread designs >-->these days seem to look like what "all season" tires used to. I think tire >-->manufacturers are watering down the "all terrain" concept to protect themselves >-->from ignorant SUV drivers that never check the air in their tires, never adjust >-->their driving to suit the vehicle or weather conditions, and blame their >-->equipment for their stupidity. >--> >-->Ben >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) The revolt is underway, you can not stop it. FEAR THE PENGUIN!!!! May the SOURCE be With GNU - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 18:19:46 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Towing with Jeeps and swaying In a message dated 7/10/2003 3:02:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, john-at-wagoneers.com writes: >I'm pretty impressed by the AT KO's... amazing improvement on >both wet and dry road, look to clean better in mud/dirt too... no >snow yet to test... doubt I'll see any before the '91 XJ is sold either. ;) I expect I'll give them a try, if I can still afford them when I wear these out. Improved cleaning in mud would be a definite plus. I really don't have many wet weather concerns though : ) Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 18:57:14 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: Towing with Jeeps and swaying A: Check the frame rail just ahead of the driver's side rear tire for rust! Do you have a full frame hitch? That makes a big difference along with tire pressure. I used air shocks in my '83 Cherokee when towing. If they were low, it swayed like crazy (it did when I had a loose wheel bearing as well) Pumped up, I hauled my 5 ton trailer at 55 mph no problem. From: "Stephen D. Thompson" Subject: Re: fsj: Towing with Jeeps and swaying I have just started towing my 17.5 foot outboard ski boat with my 83 full size cherokee (the Silver Bullet :-)). We have been having high winds, even for here in the Idaho mountains, this summer. I towed the same boat on the same trailer behind my 90 4Runner before getting the FSJ. I did not experience much swaying with the 4Runner (once in a while with hard braking coming down twisty and steep Galena pass) . However, on the flat with the Silver Bullet, I have experienced some scary swaying, seemingly related to wind. What are some steps I can take to reduce it? Can I add a leaf or two on the rear springs? (Visually, the rear sags just a little with the trailer on. It did with the 4Runner too). Does tongue weight make a difference? Can I somehow adjust the tongue weight? It is a single axle "Shoreliner" trailer with a 17.5 Sea Swirl with a 120 Johnson bought in Kent in 1988. This topic is timely as a friend of mine just passed away after the large model year 200 Ford F250 or 350 crew cab with a loaded Wells Cargo type trailer swayed and tangled with a dump truck after attempting to pass in a windy area. Thanks in advance for the comments. Steve - - -- Steve Thompson P.O. Box 1707 Ketchum, Idaho 83340 Phone: (208)726-4518 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:10:58 +1000 From: "Veijo Phillips" Subject: RE: fsj: Towing with Jeeps and swaying I've found a combination of things to improve towing. I had new springs made all around and it immediatly made a big improvement I also added a bit of a lift at the rear. I use the Rancho RS9000 shocks and have found these alot more stable compared to the old man emu shock I had previously. The biggest improvment came from the Hayman Reese hitch system I purchased. It cost around $600AUD ($400USD) and included a fully adjustable hitch and anti sway bars. You can check out their products at http://www.haymanreese.com.au. With all of the above I quite happily tow my 25 foot enclosed race car trailer behind my 83 cherokee with no problems. Veijo From: "Stephen D. Thompson" Subject: Re: fsj: Towing with Jeeps and swaying I have just started towing my 17.5 foot outboard ski boat with my 83 full size cherokee (the Silver Bullet :-)). We have been having high winds, even for here in the Idaho mountains, this summer. I towed the same boat on the same trailer behind my 90 4Runner before getting the FSJ. I did not experience much swaying with the 4Runner (once in a while with hard braking coming down twisty and steep Galena pass) . However, on the flat with the Silver Bullet, I have experienced some scary swaying, seemingly related to wind. What are some steps I can take to reduce it? Can I add a leaf or two on the rear springs? (Visually, the rear sags just a little with the trailer on. It did with the 4Runner too). Does tongue weight make a difference? Can I somehow adjust the tongue weight? It is a single axle "Shoreliner" trailer with a 17.5 Sea Swirl with a 120 Johnson bought in Kent in 1988. This topic is timely as a friend of mine just passed away after the large model year 200 Ford F250 or 350 crew cab with a loaded Wells Cargo type trailer swayed and tangled with a dump truck after attempting to pass in a windy area. Thanks in advance for the comments. Steve - - -- Steve Thompson P.O. Box 1707 Ketchum, Idaho 83340 Phone: (208)726-4518 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:37:49 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Fw: GoodYear MTR review we'll see how long they last George... biggest beef I've had with ANY Goodyear is life... I've done a lot of GY over the years and they all wear out way too fast... BFG's of various types have always held up for a long time... john At 07:41 PM 7/10/2003 -0700, Jim B wrote: > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: George B. Milam, IV >Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:23 PM >To: Jim B >Subject: GoodYear MTR review > >I've been towing with GoodYear MTR's at full pressure on my '89 Wag. Best >tires I've ever run. They're spendy but they are about a 5 or 6 ply tire >and they kick ^$$. The lugs are thick and they do hummm a bit on the >pavement but damn do they bite and dig in off road. > >I've been doing alot of varried terrain off roadin' lately. I was at about >a 60 ish degree angle on some soft rocky stuff yesterday in 4 lo and it was >like butter. You feel them slip and then they grab and it's adios from >there. I've only had to air down in the really soft silty dusty stuff to >get good traction going up steep hills. The side biting lugs really make a >huge difference over the BFG's I had. > >Oh, and I forgot to mention, they look really cool and I've even seen a few >heads turn to look at the tires as folks walk by her when she's parked. > >Love 'em and would highly recomend them. > >IS ANY BODY ELSE RUNNING THESE? > >George >'89 Wag "Moose >VT >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jim B" >To: "local Jeep list" >Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:57 PM >Subject: Re: fsj: Towing with Jeeps and swaying > > > > A: Check the frame rail just ahead of the driver's side rear tire for >rust! Do > > you have a full frame hitch? That makes a big difference along with tire > > pressure. I used air shocks in my '83 Cherokee when towing. If they were >low, > > it swayed like crazy (it did when I had a loose wheel bearing as well) >Pumped > > up, I hauled my 5 ton trailer at 55 mph no problem. > > > > From: "Stephen D. Thompson" > > Subject: Re: fsj: Towing with Jeeps and swaying > > > > > > I have just started towing my 17.5 foot outboard ski boat with my 83 full > > size cherokee (the Silver Bullet :-)). We have been having high winds, >even > > for here in the Idaho mountains, this summer. I towed the same boat on >the > > same trailer behind my 90 4Runner before getting the FSJ. I did not > > experience much swaying with the 4Runner (once in a while with hard >braking > > coming down twisty and steep Galena pass) . However, on the flat with the > > Silver Bullet, I have experienced some scary swaying, seemingly related to > > wind. What are some steps I can take to reduce it? Can I add a leaf or >two > > on the rear springs? (Visually, the rear sags just a little with the > > trailer on. It did with the 4Runner too). Does tongue weight make a > > difference? Can I somehow adjust the tongue weight? It is a single axle > > "Shoreliner" trailer with a 17.5 Sea Swirl with a 120 Johnson bought in >Kent > > in 1988. > > > > This topic is timely as a friend of mine just passed away after the large > > model year 200 Ford F250 or 350 crew cab with a loaded Wells Cargo type > > trailer swayed and tangled with a dump truck after attempting to pass in a > > windy area. Thanks in advance for the comments. > > > > Steve > > - -- > > > > Steve Thompson > > P.O. Box 1707 > > Ketchum, Idaho 83340 > > Phone: (208)726-4518 > > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 08:58:51 -0400 From: "George Milam" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: Fw: GoodYear MTR review How long should a good mud tire like my GoodYear MTR's last me if I use them for my everyday driving? George - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" To: "Jim B" Cc: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 11:37 PM Subject: fsj: Re: Fw: GoodYear MTR review > we'll see how long they last George... biggest > beef I've had with ANY Goodyear is life... I've > done a lot of GY over the years and they all wear > out way too fast... BFG's of various types have > always held up for a long time... > > john > > At 07:41 PM 7/10/2003 -0700, Jim B wrote: > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: George B. Milam, IV > >Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:23 PM > >To: Jim B > >Subject: GoodYear MTR review > > > >I've been towing with GoodYear MTR's at full pressure on my '89 Wag. Best > >tires I've ever run. They're spendy but they are about a 5 or 6 ply tire > >and they kick ^$$. The lugs are thick and they do hummm a bit on the > >pavement but damn do they bite and dig in off road. > > > >I've been doing alot of varried terrain off roadin' lately. I was at about > >a 60 ish degree angle on some soft rocky stuff yesterday in 4 lo and it was > >like butter. You feel them slip and then they grab and it's adios from > >there. I've only had to air down in the really soft silty dusty stuff to > >get good traction going up steep hills. The side biting lugs really make a > >huge difference over the BFG's I had. > > > >Oh, and I forgot to mention, they look really cool and I've even seen a few > >heads turn to look at the tires as folks walk by her when she's parked. > > > >Love 'em and would highly recomend them. > > > >IS ANY BODY ELSE RUNNING THESE? > > > >George > >'89 Wag "Moose > >VT > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Jim B" > >To: "local Jeep list" > >Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:57 PM > >Subject: Re: fsj: Towing with Jeeps and swaying > > > > > > > A: Check the frame rail just ahead of the driver's side rear tire for > >rust! Do > > > you have a full frame hitch? That makes a big difference along with tire > > > pressure. I used air shocks in my '83 Cherokee when towing. If they were > >low, > > > it swayed like crazy (it did when I had a loose wheel bearing as well) > >Pumped > > > up, I hauled my 5 ton trailer at 55 mph no problem. > > > > > > From: "Stephen D. Thompson" > > > Subject: Re: fsj: Towing with Jeeps and swaying > > > > > > > > > I have just started towing my 17.5 foot outboard ski boat with my 83 full > > > size cherokee (the Silver Bullet :-)). We have been having high winds, > >even > > > for here in the Idaho mountains, this summer. I towed the same boat on > >the > > > same trailer behind my 90 4Runner before getting the FSJ. I did not > > > experience much swaying with the 4Runner (once in a while with hard > >braking > > > coming down twisty and steep Galena pass) . However, on the flat with the > > > Silver Bullet, I have experienced some scary swaying, seemingly related to > > > wind. What are some steps I can take to reduce it? Can I add a leaf or > >two > > > on the rear springs? (Visually, the rear sags just a little with the > > > trailer on. It did with the 4Runner too). Does tongue weight make a > > > difference? Can I somehow adjust the tongue weight? It is a single axle > > > "Shoreliner" trailer with a 17.5 Sea Swirl with a 120 Johnson bought in > >Kent > > > in 1988. > > > > > > This topic is timely as a friend of mine just passed away after the large > > > model year 200 Ford F250 or 350 crew cab with a loaded Wells Cargo type > > > trailer swayed and tangled with a dump truck after attempting to pass in a > > > windy area. Thanks in advance for the comments. > > > > > > Steve > > > - -- > > > > > > Steve Thompson > > > P.O. Box 1707 > > > Ketchum, Idaho 83340 > > > Phone: (208)726-4518 > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:13:43 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Re: Fw: GoodYear MTR review depends on your driving style... even with mild driving mine only lasted about 20,000 to 30,000 miles... :( john At 08:58 AM 7/11/2003 -0400, George Milam wrote: >How long should a good mud tire like my GoodYear MTR's last me if I use them >for my everyday driving? > >George >----- Original Message ----- >From: "john" >To: "Jim B" >Cc: >Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 11:37 PM >Subject: fsj: Re: Fw: GoodYear MTR review > > > > we'll see how long they last George... biggest > > beef I've had with ANY Goodyear is life... I've > > done a lot of GY over the years and they all wear > > out way too fast... BFG's of various types have > > always held up for a long time... > > > > john > > > > At 07:41 PM 7/10/2003 -0700, Jim B wrote: > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: George B. Milam, IV > > >Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:23 PM > > >To: Jim B > > >Subject: GoodYear MTR review > > > > > >I've been towing with GoodYear MTR's at full pressure on my '89 Wag. >Best > > >tires I've ever run. They're spendy but they are about a 5 or 6 ply tire > > >and they kick ^$$. The lugs are thick and they do hummm a bit on the > > >pavement but damn do they bite and dig in off road. > > > > > >I've been doing alot of varried terrain off roadin' lately. I was at >about > > >a 60 ish degree angle on some soft rocky stuff yesterday in 4 lo and it >was > > >like butter. You feel them slip and then they grab and it's adios from > > >there. I've only had to air down in the really soft silty dusty stuff to > > >get good traction going up steep hills. The side biting lugs really make >a > > >huge difference over the BFG's I had. > > > > > >Oh, and I forgot to mention, they look really cool and I've even seen a >few > > >heads turn to look at the tires as folks walk by her when she's parked. > > > > > >Love 'em and would highly recomend them. > > > > > >IS ANY BODY ELSE RUNNING THESE? > > > > > >George > > >'89 Wag "Moose > > >VT > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Jim B" > > >To: "local Jeep list" > > >Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:57 PM > > >Subject: Re: fsj: Towing with Jeeps and swaying > > > > > > > > > > A: Check the frame rail just ahead of the driver's side rear tire for > > >rust! Do > > > > you have a full frame hitch? That makes a big difference along with >tire > > > > pressure. I used air shocks in my '83 Cherokee when towing. If they >were > > >low, > > > > it swayed like crazy (it did when I had a loose wheel bearing as well) > > >Pumped > > > > up, I hauled my 5 ton trailer at 55 mph no problem. > > > > > > > > From: "Stephen D. Thompson" > > > > Subject: Re: fsj: Towing with Jeeps and swaying > > > > > > > > > > > > I have just started towing my 17.5 foot outboard ski boat with my 83 >full > > > > size cherokee (the Silver Bullet :-)). We have been having high >winds, > > >even > > > > for here in the Idaho mountains, this summer. I towed the same boat >on > > >the > > > > same trailer behind my 90 4Runner before getting the FSJ. I did not > > > > experience much swaying with the 4Runner (once in a while with hard > > >braking > > > > coming down twisty and steep Galena pass) . However, on the flat with >the > > > > Silver Bullet, I have experienced some scary swaying, seemingly >related to > > > > wind. What are some steps I can take to reduce it? Can I add a leaf >or > > >two > > > > on the rear springs? (Visually, the rear sags just a little with the > > > > trailer on. It did with the 4Runner too). Does tongue weight make a > > > > difference? Can I somehow adjust the tongue weight? It is a single >axle > > > > "Shoreliner" trailer with a 17.5 Sea Swirl with a 120 Johnson bought >in > > >Kent > > > > in 1988. > > > > > > > > This topic is timely as a friend of mine just passed away after the >large > > > > model year 200 Ford F250 or 350 crew cab with a loaded Wells Cargo >type > > > > trailer swayed and tangled with a dump truck after attempting to pass >in a > > > > windy area. Thanks in advance for the comments. > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > - -- > > > > > > > > Steve Thompson > > > > P.O. Box 1707 > > > > Ketchum, Idaho 83340 > > > > Phone: (208)726-4518 > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > > Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1971 **************************