From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Nov 20 17:28:32 2003 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, November 21 2003 Volume 01 : Number 2049 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Restoring.... fsj: Re: Building Options Re: fsj: Building Options fsj: WOW! '82 J10 stepside overseas restoration! fsj: Re: Re: Building Options Re: fsj: Building Options Re: fsj: Building Options fsj: Re: Building Options fsj: it snowed in snohomish... Re: fsj: Building Options FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:26:07 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: Restoring.... Neal, seems there are many rusty J-trucks around, and it means a lot to have a rustfree model, so I'd go with the '86..good body and frame first, everything else add'l. There are wiring harnesses available, I forget the link, Steve (aka JeepNut) had a good experience on his '89 GW, surprisingly quick to install, a matter of hours if I recall... - - Landon =========== as far as the drivetrain goes, i assume that i could simply unbolt the 727 from the 401 and bolt in the TH400, right? but, what about putting the NP208 behind the TH400? will it bolt up, or am i stuck with the QT if i go with the TH400? i suppose a compression check would be the place to start. my main concern is the hack-and-splice job that the guy did on the '86 to get the 401 into the engine bay. very poor wiring job, and the cab interior isn't much better. originally, before the '86 came around, i was going to work with the '76 truck frame and drivetrain and swap on body parts from the '84 body-on-frame truck that i have. but, now the '86 is raising new options, and i'm as confused as a kid in a candy store as to what to do! Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 (on hiatus) Project '96 XJ (revived) - - ----- Original Message ----- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:07:13 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Building Options Ok. I've got nothing better to do than sit here and cogitate on this dilemma, so here's my two cents worth. The '76 cab is cooler. As for the rest of the body, mix and match to minimize work. Use which ever interior is in better shape. Re-wire the '76, if it's questionable, and keep the drive-train. By the time the 360 croaks you'll have the 401 all built and in storage waiting to go under the hood. By the time the Q-trac croaks you'll have found an NP208 adapter in a junkyard and you can swap it in if you have to. Keep the '86 driveshafts just in case. Ditch the rest, but try to get some money for it. Spare parts to keep if you have room: front axle, doors, tailgate and anything that will fit in the spaces in between. Keep the hood if you're into extreme winter sports. They're also good for skidding heavy objects around the yard. Bear in mind that my sanity may be questionable, as evidenced by my current fleet. Ben Williams(never looks at the price of gas) '68 Catalina '71 Wagoneer '78 Cherokee Chief '78 F-250 4x4 '79 F-350 4x4 '88 Bronco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:09:04 -0800 From: john meister Subject: Re: fsj: Building Options Neal Hoover wrote: >actually, i'm much more of a fan of the '75 cab than the '86. more classic >look to me. >but, to each his own. > > if you enjoy wind noise... >as far as the drivetrain goes, i assume that i could simply unbolt the 727 >from the 401 and bolt in the TH400, right? > > yeah. >but, what about putting the NP208 behind the TH400? will it bolt up, or am >i stuck with the QT if i go with the TH400? > > ain't gonna happen... the TH400 has a long tail shaft and 10 splines... the np208 has 23 splines and a shorter shaft... THAT and the axle drops are a problem. You're stuck with the QT with the TH400 unless you change out the tail section/output shaft. You could use a Dana 20.. This has been a problem for me for years... xfr cases/trannies and axle drops... :) >i suppose a compression check would be the place to start. >my main concern is the hack-and-splice job that the guy did on the '86 to >get the 401 into the engine bay. very poor wiring job, and the cab interior >isn't much better. > > there shouldn't have been much wiring changes to make it work... sounds like the guy was a hack. >originally, before the '86 came around, i was going to work with the '76 >truck frame and drivetrain and swap on body parts from the '84 body-on-frame >truck that i have. but, now the '86 is raising new options, and i'm as >confused as a kid in a candy store as to what to do! > > been there, done that... grease spots on t-shirts... john >Neal A. Hoover >Project '76 J-10 (on hiatus) >Project '96 XJ (revived) >----- Original Message ----- >From: "john meister" >To: "Neal Hoover" >Cc: >Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 3:07 PM >Subject: Re: fsj: Building Options > > > > >>the model 20 axles aren't that bad... but the torqueloss 727 is... a >>TH400 is a better tranny. But >>I've had trouble with them as well... the '86 cab would be my choice, >>more modern and looks >>better... not a big fan of any amc v8 and if it really is a 401 and >>anemic it's probably got troubles... >> >>I'm not sure if you could move the edelbrock stuff over to the 401 or >>not, but if it had good >>compression and doesn't smoke I'd suggest using the 401 with the th400 >>using the '76 frame/axles >>with the '86 body... there will be some differences and this is a lot of >>work... but you'll end >>up with a good running gear/engine/axles and body... >> >>you asked. ;) >> >>john >> >>Neal Hoover wrote: >> >> >> >>>ok guys, i'd like to pose what may seem as an obvious question, but i'll >>> >>> >ask > > >>>anyway... >>>which one to build/restore? >>>'76 J-10 >>>360, TH400, Quadratrac, D44s F/R w/ a few performance mods (cam, 4brl >>>Edlebrock carb, intake, and headers) >>>this one smokes a bit, runs rough (probably needs a good tune-up), needs >>> >>> >new > > >>>intake & valve cover gaskets, and needs a TON of body work (i have an '84 >>>body to help in that situation) >>> >>>or..... >>> >>>'86 J-10 >>>401, 727 (i'm assuming), NP208, model 20 rear & D44 front >>>this one used to be a 6 cylinder, and the guy before me swapped in the >>> >>> >401 > > >>>and whatever else to make it work. it doesn't smoke, but the 401 seems a >>>little anemic. it just doesn't have the power that a 401 should. the >>>wiring system is a hack-job joke, but i guess it works. are complete >>> >>> >wiring > > >>>harnesses available? >>>also, i'm planning on using one of these rigs as a work/tow rig, and i >>>wasn't too fond of the model 20 rear. yeah, i could swap rears, but if >>> >>> >the > > >>>gearing isn't the same on both rigs, then i didn't want to get into gear >>>swaps if i didn't have to on this build. >>>lastly, the body on the '86 has been worked on quite a bit, and would >>> >>> >only > > >>>require a light sanding and paint job to get it where i want it. >>> >>>any suggestions on where to go on this? >>>thanks for all responses and reasons! >>> >>>Neal Hoover >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>-- >>------------------------------------------------------------------ >>john at http://wagoneers.com from Snohomish,WA- where Jeeps don't >> rust, they mold... reminding you not to leave life w/o Jesus! >>------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > - -- - ------------------------------------------------------------------ john at http://wagoneers.com from Snohomish,WA- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... reminding you not to leave life w/o Jesus! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:03:41 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: WOW! '82 J10 stepside overseas restoration! http://www.mediacooperation.com/jeep/index2.htm build your truck right the first time!Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:22:41 -0500 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: Building Options lol! great dialogue, Ben! and i also see the merit in it. so, excuse my ignorance, but you're saying that the 208 will mate to the TH400 with appropriate OEM adapters? this is one very driving question that i have. also, if using the 208 with adapters, does it change the driveshaft lengths significantly? thanks! Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 (on hiatus) Project '96 XJ (revived) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:07 PM Subject: fsj: Re: Building Options > Ok. I've got nothing better to do than sit here and cogitate on this > dilemma, so here's my two cents worth. > > The '76 cab is cooler. As for the rest of the body, mix and match to > minimize work. Use which ever interior is in better shape. Re-wire the '76, if it's > questionable, and keep the drive-train. By the time the 360 croaks you'll > have the 401 all built and in storage waiting to go under the hood. By the time > the Q-trac croaks you'll have found an NP208 adapter in a junkyard and you > can swap it in if you have to. Keep the '86 driveshafts just in case. Ditch > the rest, but try to get some money for it. Spare parts to keep if you have > room: front axle, doors, tailgate and anything that will fit in the spaces in > between. Keep the hood if you're into extreme winter sports. They're also good > for skidding heavy objects around the yard. Bear in mind that my sanity may > be questionable, as evidenced by my current fleet. > > Ben Williams(never looks at the price of gas) > '68 Catalina > '71 Wagoneer > '78 Cherokee Chief > '78 F-250 4x4 > '79 F-350 4x4 > '88 Bronco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:40:13 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: Building Options A: I like both the '80s and '70's body styles, but prefer the early grill the most. The roof in my '73 is trying to rot out from the inside (back of the cab has a couple open spots I'm going to weld soon as I hate the rattling noise while freeway driving at 70 mph!) You can bolt a NP208 to a TH400, BUT you need a chev trans core that was bolted to one to do it. Also, the Chev NP208 could be 23 or 32 or other spline count (I have a Chev NP208 I was going to rebuild for my J4000, but I'm not having much luck finding the output shaft and adapter sleeve from a Chev TH400 to NP208/241 yet) From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: Re: fsj: Building Options actually, i'm much more of a fan of the '75 cab than the '86. more classic look to me. but, to each his own. as far as the drivetrain goes, i assume that i could simply unbolt the 727 from the 401 and bolt in the TH400, right? but, what about putting the NP208 behind the TH400? will it bolt up, or am i stuck with the QT if i go with the TH400? i suppose a compression check would be the place to start. my main concern is the hack-and-splice job that the guy did on the '86 to get the 401 into the engine bay. very poor wiring job, and the cab interior isn't much better. originally, before the '86 came around, i was going to work with the '76 truck frame and drivetrain and swap on body parts from the '84 body-on-frame truck that i have. but, now the '86 is raising new options, and i'm as confused as a kid in a candy store as to what to do! Neal A. Hoover ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:36:02 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: Building Options A: First, look behind the motor mounts on the block to see if you have a 401 or 304 in there (lots of liars out there when they sell motors) and they may not have changed the flexplate when they swapped motors (unless the 401 came from an AMC car '72 or newer, in which case it has the right flexplate balance) The full size AMC 20 rear is MUCH tougher than the CJ version (as strong or maybe stronger than dana 44 in the same application as they got rid of the 2 piece axle shafts, but the tubes need to be welded in place to the center section if you jump the Jeep!) From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: fsj: Building Options ok guys, i'd like to pose what may seem as an obvious question, but i'll ask anyway... which one to build/restore? '76 J-10 360, TH400, Quadratrac, D44s F/R w/ a few performance mods (cam, 4brl Edlebrock carb, intake, and headers) this one smokes a bit, runs rough (probably needs a good tune-up), needs new intake & valve cover gaskets, and needs a TON of body work (i have an '84 body to help in that situation) or..... '86 J-10 401, 727 (i'm assuming), NP208, model 20 rear & D44 front this one used to be a 6 cylinder, and the guy before me swapped in the 401 and whatever else to make it work. it doesn't smoke, but the 401 seems a little anemic. it just doesn't have the power that a 401 should. the wiring system is a hack-job joke, but i guess it works. are complete wiring harnesses available? also, i'm planning on using one of these rigs as a work/tow rig, and i wasn't too fond of the model 20 rear. yeah, i could swap rears, but if the gearing isn't the same on both rigs, then i didn't want to get into gear swaps if i didn't have to on this build. lastly, the body on the '86 has been worked on quite a bit, and would only require a light sanding and paint job to get it where i want it. any suggestions on where to go on this? thanks for all responses and reasons! Neal Hoover ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:56:42 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: Building Options Glad I could entertain you : ) I'm good at entertaining myself, but it doesn't always work on anyone else. Now that I'm done patting myself on the back... I may have my head in a dark place. I was assuming the 208 was used with the TH400 in Cherokee's, but that may not have happened until after the switch to the 727 transmission in '80 That adapter may have to come from a Chevy truck. If that's the case, then the differential offset will be a problem too. (Shuffle, shuffle, flip, flip, sound of hand smacking forehead) Ok, I looked it up. I'm not to be trusted. The NP208 has the front output on the left side so it won't work on the '76 unless you get an adapter and TH400 output shaft from a Chevy truck, and save the '86 front axle to go with it. You might still be able to use the '76 rear driveshaft with the NP208, but it'd be better to just save the driveshafts and not worry about it. Oh, what am I saying. Just keep the whole '86 in your sock drawer to use as a parts truck! You can never have too many parts. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 Cherokee In a message dated 11/19/2003 6:20:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, proj96xj-at-bellsouth.net writes: >lol! great dialogue, Ben! >and i also see the merit in it. so, excuse my ignorance, but you're saying >that the 208 will mate to the TH400 with appropriate OEM adapters? >this is one very driving question that i have. >also, if using the 208 with adapters, does it change the driveshaft lengths >significantly? >thanks! > >Neal A. Hoover >Project '76 J-10 (on hiatus) >Project '96 XJ (revived) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 01:27:14 -0800 From: john meister Subject: fsj: it snowed in snohomish... I forget which "annual" Snohomish Snowy Hill climb contest this is... :) http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/FESTS/Nov19-2003-SnowyHillClimb-Snohomish/ the blue xj is my son's friend Karl (he's selling the wilderness rack fwiw), the '81 wagoneer is my son's, and the gold '87 xj is mine. The FSJ took the first run, didn't make it... the blue xj made several runs, didn't make it... :) then Dad fired up "mom's" Jeep and made it to the top and around on the FIRST attempt... that inspired mr. blue xj to continue making runs... with the help of my son as spotter and ballast they eventually made it up... my son claimed that my jeep made it because of the tires... I don't buy it... but I didn't have a chance to make the attempt in the blue xj... they left and haven't been back since... ;) more snow is expected... :) too bad my ASD isn't working on the '91 300d... sure would be interesting to see if it would make it... probably not... john - -- - ------------------------------------------------------------------ john at http://wagoneers.com from Snohomish,WA- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... reminding you not to leave life w/o Jesus! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 20:15:05 -0500 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: Re: fsj: Building Options i'll definitely check the block for the size of the motor. btw, is it usually on the driver's or passenger side? Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 (on hiatus) Project '96 XJ (revived) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim B" To: "local Jeep list" Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 11:36 PM Subject: Re: fsj: Building Options > A: First, look behind the motor mounts on the block to see if you have a 401 > or 304 in there (lots of liars out there when they sell motors) and they may > not have changed the flexplate when they swapped motors (unless the 401 came > from an AMC car '72 or newer, in which case it has the right flexplate > balance) The full size AMC 20 rear is MUCH tougher than the CJ version (as > strong or maybe stronger than dana 44 in the same application as they got rid > of the 2 piece axle shafts, but the tubes need to be welded in place to the > center section if you jump the Jeep!) > > From: "Neal Hoover" > Subject: fsj: Building Options > > ok guys, i'd like to pose what may seem as an obvious question, but i'll ask > anyway... > which one to build/restore? > '76 J-10 > 360, TH400, Quadratrac, D44s F/R w/ a few performance mods (cam, 4brl > Edlebrock carb, intake, and headers) > this one smokes a bit, runs rough (probably needs a good tune-up), needs new > intake & valve cover gaskets, and needs a TON of body work (i have an '84 > body to help in that situation) > > or..... > > '86 J-10 > 401, 727 (i'm assuming), NP208, model 20 rear & D44 front > this one used to be a 6 cylinder, and the guy before me swapped in the 401 > and whatever else to make it work. it doesn't smoke, but the 401 seems a > little anemic. it just doesn't have the power that a 401 should. the > wiring system is a hack-job joke, but i guess it works. are complete wiring > harnesses available? > also, i'm planning on using one of these rigs as a work/tow rig, and i > wasn't too fond of the model 20 rear. yeah, i could swap rears, but if the > gearing isn't the same on both rigs, then i didn't want to get into gear > swaps if i didn't have to on this build. > lastly, the body on the '86 has been worked on quite a bit, and would only > require a light sanding and paint job to get it where i want it. > > any suggestions on where to go on this? > thanks for all responses and reasons! > > Neal Hoover ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2049 **************************