From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jun 30 09:20:53 2004 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, June 30 2004 Volume 01 : Number 2180 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Fan clutch? fsj: Re: Adapter plate for 5 cylinder diesel Mercedes OM617 engine to Jeep driv etrain conversions fsj: [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... fsj: Re: [offtopic] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... fsj: Re: [offtopic] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... fsj: RE: [db] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... fsj: Jeep Other Models 4x4 Pickup Kaiser Jeep Gladiator 4x4 Pickup Rust fsj: Re: RE: [db] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... fsj: Re: [db] Re: [offtopic] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 07:46:39 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Fan clutch? "Vince Orr" said: {- I ended up with a 4 core radiator to fix the Rez overheating problem. {- Wasn't cheap but it solved the problem. What I was fighting was a new {- engine that was bored .030 over. Check radiator.com. I got a good 4-core radiator for $198 including shipping. Details and pics on John's server: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/FSJ-radiator/ To date, I still haven't seen a single drop leaked from this radiator, not even any user error during installation. {- Plus, I'm pushing a lot too much fuel. Need smaller jets or something. A too-rich mix will actually run cooler than a too-lean mix. {- Check fan clutch, radiator, and you can get a high volume water pump but {- that usually isn't a great problem solver. Though did anybody actually mention changing the water pump? That might be it. Though I think you (Landon?) mentioned getting the old radiator flushed; that could do it, as that was the problem several years ago when I had an '84 XJ. Don't settle for the shop testing it and saying water's flowing through fine; if there's corrosion or other gunk built up but it hasn't yet choked off the middle, water will flow through fine, but it won't actually touch enough metal, and it won't distribute the heat. They don't have a test for water temp to see if it's actually distributing heat. That was the problem on the '84 XJ. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Show me a man with both feet planted firmly on the ground and I'll show you a man who can't put on his pants. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:41:20 -0700 From: john meister Subject: fsj: Re: Adapter plate for 5 cylinder diesel Mercedes OM617 engine to Jeep driv etrain conversions yes, we did... I emailed you the results but your mailbox puked it back, saying it was full. Tried to reach you a couple of times... damn spammers must have filled up your inbox... either that or you only check your email during a full moon... ;) all the threads will be in the FSJ digests on wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/digests/ also put the translation at: http://www.wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/TECH/Swedish-Adapters.txt j-reuter-at-juno.com wrote: > john-at-wagoneers.com > > John I was wondering whether you had heard anything from your sources in Sweden about the translation of the Scandanavian Marine Trading product information on mating a Mercedes OM617 engine to a DANA T-18 4 speed transmission? > > J. Reuter > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:46:59 -0700 From: john meister Subject: fsj: [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... It appears that Rube Goldberg Designs Inc. is losing ground at Daimler Chrysler... seems they have eliminated some 160 mouse traps, er functions, from the newest Benz designs... Interestingly enough it seems that people don't like systems that don't work properly... hmmm, imagine that... I'm not sure what's more overly complex, the federal government or the climate control and door lock system on my (older) Benz (after all mine doesn't have the Tunnel vent feature)... :) Another thing this article points out is that we're stuck with a lot of what was initially developed... backward compatibility is not just an issue, it's a way of life... to change something as simple as the voltage on the auto light bulb is mind boggling... article in link below... john - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Mercedes-Benz Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:29:42 -0700 From: P Bain For You Techy Types... http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_dc_dumps_volts/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:14:18 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [offtopic] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Ted Spradley wrote: >-->On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:46:59 -0700 >-->john meister wrote: >-->> http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_dc_dumps_volts/index.htm >-->Well, what would be the benefit of more voltage, anyway? For digital simple, less current flow. reduced copper diameter=less weight. less weight, better fuel economy... remember, the power factor remains the same... P=I*E as voltage increases, current decreases with the same wattage... less current requires less copper... hence the high voltage power lines... and 220v used in Europe... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:50:52 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [offtopic] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, John Hofstetter wrote: >-->On Jun 29, 2004, at 4:14 PM, john wrote: >-->>> -->john meister wrote: >-->>> -->> http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_dc_dumps_volts/index.htm >-->>> -->Well, what would be the benefit of more voltage, anyway? For >-->> >-->> simple, less current flow. reduced copper diameter=less weight. >-->> less weight, better fuel economy... >-->> >-->> remember, the power factor remains the same... >-->> >-->> P=I*E >-->> >-->> as voltage increases, current decreases with the same wattage... >-->> >-->> less current requires less copper... >-->> >-->> hence the high voltage power lines... and 220v used in Europe... >-->> >-->> john >--> >-->Good explanation John, but I have a related question. Why 42 volts? >-->Seems like a strange number compared to 36 or 48. >--> >-->Seems to me that the military used a lot of 32 V stuff in addition to >-->24 volt, which doesn't help me answer my own question, but ..... it is indeed a strange number... avionics uses 28VDC. Commercial power runs 440/220/208(three phase)/120... standard automotive is 13.8v... 42/1.5=28 28 cells??? assuming a cell is 1.5v each...??? it does seem like an odd number, but thanx to journalists that aren't necessarily technically minded types we might never know.... it really irritates me when someone writes about something automotive or technical and doesn't provide the necessary details... lame reporting... reminds me of a test report written by someone I know on a Jeep Grand Cherokee in Germany with the Turbo Diesel and they neglected to provide any technical info or even pictures of the engine or performance data... but we know what they had to eat... argghhh... give me the technical details please! If I get some time I'll look into this 42V thing... weird... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:07:04 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: RE: [db] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... some info on the 42 Volt issue: what it is simply is a TRIPLING of the existing voltages, 12v (battery) and 14v (alternator). Reduces size of the motors, wiring, etc. If you go much more then that then you start getting into issues of safety... getting hit with 42V will not likely kill you... going higher in voltage makes arcing and sparking a bit more likely as well as the issues of human "involvement" in the circuits. :) (of course as little as 9 volts at 21 mA can kill you... under the right conditions... and no I won't tell you what those conditions are, neither will I teach you how to hack a computer or pick a lock... no go back to your room... ;) excuse me... ;) Anyway, if you had an alternator putting out that voltage it wouldn't be hard to split it out and still use existing 12v items... of course depending on how you do that could create the losses that DC was trying to avoid... so, here's some googled articles that help understand the raging issue: http://www.mindbranch.com/catalog/product.jsp?code=R1-2238&psrc=gsitemap http://www.normas.com/SAE/pages/SP-1556.html (pay to view! ;) lookie here, even dupont is in on it... figured they were happy just getting r12 outlawed after their patent ran out... ;) http://www.automotive.dupont.com/en/scienceAuto/AAEE/advancedEE.html http://www.caraudiomag.com/specialfeatures/0307cae_42volt/ excerpt: Some History and Background The 12-volt configuration has not always been with us. Up until the mid-1950s, U.S. cars used 6-volt systems and many European brands continued to produce 6-volt cars through the 1960s. General Motors made the switch in 1955, and VW was the last major player to jump to 12 volt, back in 1966. The larger trucks moved to 42-volt systems long ago. Actually, our cars run on 14-volt alternators and generator electrical systems; only the battery is 12 volts. The current thinking (pun intended) is for a triple increase to 42-volt systems. It is generally agreed that safe voltage is limited to 60V. As voltage levels rise, however, the higher voltage can more readily jump the air gap between electrical conductors and "arc." Arcing in a 42-volt environment is a much bigger headache than 12/14-volt systems --the energy in the arcs is much higher. The solution is there is a lot of subtle part redesign that has to be done to prevent arcing. The new 42-volt standard was driven by the industry wanting the highest possible voltage, with the most safety. But higher voltage beyond a point can have its own costs -- a European safety regulation specifies that any voltage above 60 needs to have more heavily insulated wires and connectors. That would ad... later, john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:38:48 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Jeep Other Models 4x4 Pickup Kaiser Jeep Gladiator 4x4 Pickup Rust this is an interesting Jeep link I just found! http://www.mongoose.net/drw/d1-6286-Jeep-Other-Models-4x4-Pickup-Kaiser-Jeep-Gladiator-4x4-Pickup-Rust.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:45:02 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: RE: [db] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... The most recent setups I have been looking at were 72 volt I was told. That's what the GE motor I'm putting into Black Jack is supposed to be. (it'll run the front axle with the transfercase in neutral and have regenerative braking along with the propane motor) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:13:58 -0700 From: john meister Subject: fsj: Re: [db] Re: [offtopic] [Fwd: Mercedes-Benz] 42 volts? Rube Goldberg defeated again... even at 28VDC there is arcing... we used 28VDC on airplanes... not as bad, and controllable with a diode... ever used Tranzorbs? cool little devices... failure mode is short, designed to handle transients of high voltage in very short time frames... can you say EMP? It wouldn't take much to design circuit protection for auto electronics that could be consumer replaceable or even resettable... of course decent filtering would eliminate a lot of the troubles from the start... john Edward Pomeroy wrote: > I knew that BSEE would come in hand one day. The 48 volt limit was > selected because of switching issues, and it actually was not best > choice. Above about 35 volts, at high current especially, you start to > get arcing on relays and switches. This reduces the life of the > component and can introduce large voltage spikes into the system being > switched. 48 volts was thought to be a workeable limit, however, from > what I am following in the industry, it is proving to be a real bear > when dealing with digital and semiconductor circuits, they DO NOT LIKE > current surges and voltage spikes. It kills them and protecting them > against this becomes bulky and expensive. Note that this is direct > current (DC) switching. To get an idea, if you ever run a starter motor > (very high current) look at the arcs at the commutators when being > operated under load, and that is at only 12 V (or 10 or 9 depending). It > was a weight and cost savings idea that did not pan out. > > Edward > > john wrote: > > >>On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, John Hofstetter wrote: >> >> >> >> >>>-->On Jun 29, 2004, at 4:14 PM, john wrote: >>>-->>> -->john meister wrote: >>>-->>> -->> http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_dc_dumps_volts/index.htm >>>-->>> -->Well, what would be the benefit of more voltage, anyway? For >>>-->> >>>-->> simple, less current flow. reduced copper diameter=less weight. >>>-->> less weight, better fuel economy... >>>-->> >>>-->> remember, the power factor remains the same... >>>-->> >>>-->> P=I*E >>>-->> >>>-->> as voltage increases, current decreases with the same wattage... >>>-->> >>>-->> less current requires less copper... >>>-->> >>>-->> hence the high voltage power lines... and 220v used in Europe... >>>-->> >>>-->> john >>>--> >>>-->Good explanation John, but I have a related question. Why 42 volts? >>>-->Seems like a strange number compared to 36 or 48. >>>--> >>>-->Seems to me that the military used a lot of 32 V stuff in addition to >>>-->24 volt, which doesn't help me answer my own question, but ..... >>> >>> >> >>it is indeed a strange number... avionics uses 28VDC. Commercial >>power runs 440/220/208(three phase)/120... standard automotive is 13.8v... >> >>42/1.5=28 28 cells??? assuming a cell is 1.5v each...??? >> >>it does seem like an odd number, but thanx to journalists that aren't >>necessarily technically minded types we might never know.... it really >>irritates me when someone writes about something automotive or >>technical and doesn't provide the necessary details... lame reporting... >> >>reminds me of a test report written by someone I know on a Jeep >>Grand Cherokee in Germany with the Turbo Diesel and they neglected to >>provide any technical info or even pictures of the engine or performance >>data... but we know what they had to eat... argghhh... >> >>give me the technical details please! >> >>If I get some time I'll look into this 42V thing... weird... >> >>john >> >> >> ---- >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2180 **************************