From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Jul 31 12:16:41 2004 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, July 31 2004 Volume 01 : Number 2200 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: ftc on fuel saving devices fsj: Re: Re: xj: FuelMax fsj: Unemployed again! Re: fsj: dash removal Re: fsj: Re: Re: xj: FuelMax Re: fsj: dash removal Re: fsj: dash removal Re: fsj: dash removal Re: fsj: dash removal FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:53:39 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: ftc on fuel saving devices http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm bottom line: Although there are practical steps you can take to increase gas mileage, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) warns you to be wary of any gas-saving claims for automotive devices or oil and gas additives. Even for the few gas-saving products that have been found to work, the savings have been small. "Gas-Saving" Advertising Claims Be skeptical of the following kinds of advertising claims. :) john ~ ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:00:12 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: xj: FuelMax Just a little nit: Microwaves are magnetic radiation too and I wouldn't want to be near a source of those waves! (same reason I don't have a cell phone.) All the sales guys (who used the old Motorola and other large phones) where I worked at years ago died from brain cancers, but the gov't "blended" those results with the general population and said that statisically it meant nothing! I guess that boils down to lies, damn lies and statistics as Samuel E Clemens once pointed out (I think he was quoting someone else at the time) On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, Boney Varghese wrote: >-->Has anyone tried this product FuelMax >--> >-->They've just started selling it in the Middle East. I'm wondering if it >-->really make a difference in the mileage >-->Later >-->Bones here's a simple test... pour some Diesel or Gasoline into a bowl, OUTSIDE, well ventilated area... take a magnet, hold it near the bowl, above the bowl... any change? I didn't think so. :) This is could be a waste of money, the feds actually fined someone selling these things a while back, mainly because of the outlandish claims. In looking on the web it does appear that there is a slight improvement, but no where near the amount claimed. How can a magnet affect the flow of fuel? Is there iron in the fuel? Are there ANY ferrous components of fuel? Does a magnetic field affect non-ferrous material at all? The Swedes were testing electromagnetic properties on humans with a concern about monitors and power lines. From what I recall the test netted no significant effect or danger. We're bombarded daily with electromagnetic signals, radios, tv's, ignition systems, power lines, even each other... They're all over... ;) Besides, at the rate that fuel is flowing past this item and the turbulence in the system, how could it "line up" molecules? Any benefit would be quickly minimized downstream. The benefits of this device are more then likely fall into the category of a "placebo" effect. Meaning you just spent money on this device to get better economy so you drive for better economy and get it... kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. There is little or NO scientific evidence to justify any benefits from such a device. Anyone reporting improvement would unlikely be able to quantify the results scientifically. There are other variables that can not be controlled in such a test. If this were tested methodically and with a blind control it would certainly net nothing. Some of the tests cited do not provide solid statistical validation. One test, short time... weak. The cow magnet fad was raging almost 20 years ago... this is an old scam reawakened. The thing is there might be some benefit... maybe... but why? And as one report pointed out you'd need to keep your vehicle for 150,000 miles at least to break even. :) (that is assuming it really works, which hasn't really been scientifically and statistically validated) On this page they do a "test" running for FIFTEEN MINUTES! Look at the "gains". What is the percentage of change? Do they record the temperature, time, barometric pressure, the quality of the oil, operator, tides??? ;) Have they cited ALL the variables and controlled them? Are they really following the scientific method? http://www.dsuper.net/~tonyg29/Caterpillar.htm The variations in fuel economy for ONE run show an increase. Statistically this data is NOT valid. You do NOT have enough data to validate this theory. There is simply not enough data to show this as valid, especially considering the lack of scientific principle to back this up. The turbitity of the fuel flow in ANY fuel system would immediately negate any potential (although highly improbable) "lining up" of fuel molecules... This just makes NO SENSE whatsoever. Save your money... research what the Better Business Bureau... I checked snopes and found nothing, but a search on google produced these items: http://www.komotv.com/news/printstory.asp?id=12382 (note: they say anything less than 1 mpg is "insignificant", or better put within the statistical deviation or "noise" and not necessarily valid) http://www.eureka.findlay.co.uk/archive_features/Arch_Automotive/magnets/Magnets.htm EPA tests: http://www.epa.gov/orcdizux/consumer/reports.htm actual FUEL MAX TEST: http://www.epa.gov/orcdizux/consumer/devices/pb81229866.pdf The thing that bothers me is the shysters claim "DRAMATIC" improvements, up to 28%, yet the tests seem to show 4 to 8%. What is interesting is they do show some improvement, whether this is part of the placebo effect or that the magnet field does help is yet to be determined, I'm going to finish reading the EPA test. One of the pages (eureka) mentions that bar magnets in line do seem to have an effect, but also mentions the same flow related issues that I raised. If this is a real benefit, then simply, as found near the bottom of the eureka link, follow these design pointers: " Design Pointers Applying a strong magnetic field to hydrocarbon fuel entering an internal combustion engine, engine cylinder, or burner appears to improve the efficiency of combustion Bar magnets placed each side of the fuel line appear to work best, with North poles opposing each other best for petrol, and North pole opposite South pole best for diesel. The magnets should be near injectors in low pressure injection systems, or applied to the fuel filter in high pressure injection systems. The technique can also be applied to gaseous fuels " For a real laugh, wander around a mechanics shop and see what the reaction is if they find one of these things under the hood... I'd suggest an independent shop where the wrenches have real "attitude". Not recommended for those with sensitive ears... ;) john, skeptical in snohomish. :) ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:51:26 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Unemployed again! Seems one of the people at work (who was supposed to train me) took a total dislike to me from the first day and threatened to quit if I wasn't fired today. I feel sorry for the company because this one person's attitude is affecting just about everybody else there and it's cutting production and income is much lower than it could be. Even parts that I (and others) ordered were cancelled and I was blamed! Don't need that scene! At least it was a learning experience (I got trained how to use ADP, which most Jeep dealers use now) and I was offered 4 other jobs while working there (Going to find one closer to home (other complaint was I was tired when I showed for work (no duh! After driving 2 or more hours and 75 miles just to get to work!) The truck wreck just ahead of me this AM nearly cinched me leaving or moving much closer anyways (Semi-tractor and A trailer went off the highway to the right and the B trailer went left! Sparks, smoke and LOTS of adrenaline!) The timing was perfect as I had just checked out a rental this AM I was going to sign a year's lease on it tonight! I'm going to take the next week or so to clean up the rest of my auto projects around here (and get my daily driver back in top shape. The 4,000 miles I put on it in the past 6 weeks were pretty rough on it. My muffler exploded this AM on the way to work when my catalytic converter innards fell apart and clogged my muffler while coming down a hill. It was like a diesel engine jake brake till the muffler blew apart!), then I'll check out some of those job offers I got! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:01:19 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: dash removal It is indeed a lot easier with the window out! I have a near perfect black dash from the '77 I parted (complete with VIN #) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:06:15 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Re: xj: FuelMax On Sat, 31 Jul 2004, Jim Blair wrote: >-->Just a little nit: Microwaves are magnetic radiation too and I wouldn't want >-->to be near a source of those waves! (same reason I don't have a cell you're being bombarded all the time... we all are... what's interesting is there is a natural electromagnetic field coming from earth too. Even without the manmade emf there is the natural, runs around 8Hz. :) the only thing that can help you Jim is a faraday cage around your head... some folks just use aluminum foil... or a copper grid with exact spacing... and well grounded... rolf... (shall I bring over some reynolds wrap and copper wire? ;) We could work on making the cab of your J-truck shielded... :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:24:25 -0400 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: Re: fsj: dash removal thanks, Jim- my dash isn't in bad shape, i'm just removing it as part of the whole resto process. gunna paint it the same as the truck, etc.... along with wiring in power for grand waggie doors and seats.... Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Blair" To: "me" Cc: Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 3:01 AM Subject: Re: fsj: dash removal > It is indeed a lot easier with the window out! I have a near perfect black > dash from the '77 I parted (complete with VIN #) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:26:04 -0400 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: Re: fsj: dash removal thanks, john- since the windshield has a chip in it and some nasty tinting that i need to get rid of, i may just pop the windshield out and stick in a new one since it sounds to be much easier with it out. any good recommendations on removing it? i had to use piano wire to cut the seal behind the windshield in my XJ when i changed that one out. Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" To: "Neal Hoover" Cc: Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 12:48 PM Subject: Re: fsj: dash removal > > it's a bit tricky but it can be done... the screws up > in the corner will need an angle screwdriver... I probably > have pictures on my site... it would be a LOT easier > with the windshield out... > > john > > On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, Neal Hoover wrote: > > >-->curiously, is it necessary to remove the windshield in order to remove the > >-->dash from my j-truck? i was told this by a local shop, but doubt his merit. > >-->thanks! > >--> > >-->Neal A. Hoover > >-->Project '76 J-10 > >-->Project '96 XJ > >--> > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:32:56 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: dash removal take a look at the superdawg pictures, and the tech section, I've removed and replaced a couple of them... not hard at all, the biggest pain is the chrome trim... the seal is easy to open and remove... beware if some moron glued the window in place... should come right out... john On Sat, 31 Jul 2004, Neal Hoover wrote: >-->thanks, john- >-->since the windshield has a chip in it and some nasty tinting that i need to >-->get rid of, i may just pop the windshield out and stick in a new one since >-->it sounds to be much easier with it out. >--> >-->any good recommendations on removing it? i had to use piano wire to cut the >-->seal behind the windshield in my XJ when i changed that one out. >--> >-->Neal A. Hoover >-->Project '76 J-10 >-->Project '96 XJ >-->----- Original Message ----- >-->From: "john" >-->To: "Neal Hoover" >-->Cc: >-->Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 12:48 PM >-->Subject: Re: fsj: dash removal >--> >--> >-->> >-->> it's a bit tricky but it can be done... the screws up >-->> in the corner will need an angle screwdriver... I probably >-->> have pictures on my site... it would be a LOT easier >-->> with the windshield out... >-->> >-->> john >-->> >-->> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, Neal Hoover wrote: >-->> >-->> >-->curiously, is it necessary to remove the windshield in order to remove >-->the >-->> >-->dash from my j-truck? i was told this by a local shop, but doubt his >-->merit. >-->> >-->thanks! >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Neal A. Hoover >-->> >-->Project '76 J-10 >-->> >-->Project '96 XJ >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> ---- >-->> >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >-->> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:34:30 -0700 From: john meister Subject: Re: fsj: dash removal found the pictures... http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/BODY/GLASS/FSJ-Windshield/ALL.html john Neal Hoover wrote: > thanks, john- > since the windshield has a chip in it and some nasty tinting that i need to > get rid of, i may just pop the windshield out and stick in a new one since > it sounds to be much easier with it out. > > any good recommendations on removing it? i had to use piano wire to cut the > seal behind the windshield in my XJ when i changed that one out. > > Neal A. Hoover > Project '76 J-10 > Project '96 XJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "john" > To: "Neal Hoover" > Cc: > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 12:48 PM > Subject: Re: fsj: dash removal > > > >>it's a bit tricky but it can be done... the screws up >>in the corner will need an angle screwdriver... I probably >>have pictures on my site... it would be a LOT easier >>with the windshield out... >> >>john >> >>On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, Neal Hoover wrote: >> >> >>>-->curiously, is it necessary to remove the windshield in order to remove > > the > >>>-->dash from my j-truck? i was told this by a local shop, but doubt his > > merit. > >>>-->thanks! >>>--> >>>-->Neal A. Hoover >>>-->Project '76 J-10 >>>-->Project '96 XJ >>>--> >> >> ---- >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2200 **************************