From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Aug 13 08:25:03 2004 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, August 13 2004 Volume 01 : Number 2214 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Manifold / Carb replacement fsj: Re: Car Control (Hydroplaning) Re: fsj: j-truck cabs? fsj: Re: Re: Diesel project update... Re: fsj: Re: Manifold / Carb replacement Re: fsj: Re: Manifold / Carb replacement Re: fsj: Re: Car Control (Hydroplaning) Re: fsj: Re: Manifold / Carb replacement FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:11:20 +1000 From: "David Rubie" Subject: Re: fsj: Manifold / Carb replacement > Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:06:26 -0700 > From: john meister > Subject: Re: fsj: Manifold / Carb replacement > > the stock carb is a 290CFM 2v. it's ok. but when I switched > to a 4v aftermarket manifold and carb I picked up almost 2mpg. > going to a TBI setup would get you perhaps a bit more. > > I like the Edelebrock Performer manifold with the 1406 carb, > or if I had the bucks I'd go with the Howell Engineering TBI setup. > Me too: Edelbrock 1406 and Performer manifold. Fits perfectly, all the bits you need are in the boxes (with two important exceptions see below) and works very well without having to fiddle with jets etc. Bought mine from Summit Racing, delivered to Australia in very short order. The 2150 on my Jeep was a PITA - worn out and leaking air and fuel. It was actually cheaper for me to replace the manifold and carb, as rebuilding the 2150 in Sydney would have been prohibitive. Having said that, you'll need to buy a few rubber bungs, coolant elbows and various little bits and bobs (although the Edelbrock gear was remarkably complete, including kickdown linkages etc). You can adapt the standard throttle mounting plate but it isn't neat, perhaps best to buy an aftermarket one. Make sure you also buy a metal gasket (Felpro includes rubber end pieces and black sealing goop). Never going back to the 2150 though. More power, better fuel economy (figures in soon: I was getting a consistant 9.4mpg but I went a whole week this week without emptying the tank so my guess is around 12-15mpg now). I've also got an electric fuel pump (carter). I'm sure the mechanical one would be fine though, considering that I'm using less fuel with the 4BBL. Cheers, dave. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 00:09:51 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: Car Control (Hydroplaning) Okay guys. I'm confused by this. I would think the speedo wouldn't read past what it's set for and would actually drop speed when hydroplaning? (From WayneW) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- - ----- Original Message ----- From: wayne o weller To: wsw-at-bmi.net Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:14 PM Subject: Car Control Car Control This is true (checked on http://www.snopes.com/) Prevent Hydroplaning -- A True story A 36 year old female had an accident several weeks ago and totaled her car. A resident of Kilgore, Texas, she was traveling between Gladewater & Kilgore. It was raining, though not excessive, when her car suddenly began to hydroplane and literally flew through the air. She was not seriously injured but very stunned at the sudden occurrence! When she explained to the highway patrolman what had happened he told her something that every driver should know-NEVER DRIVE IN THE RAIN WITH YOUR CRUISE CONTROL ON. She had thought she was being cautious by setting the cruise control and maintaining a safe consistent speed in the rain. But the highway patrolman told her that if the cruise control is on and your car begins to hydroplane -- when your tires loose contact with the pavement your car will accelerate to a higher rate of speed and you take off like an airplane. She told the patrolman that was exactly what occurred. We all know you have little or no control over a car when it begins to hydroplane. You are at the mercy of the Good Lord. The highway patrol estimated her car was actually traveling through the air at 10 to 15 miles per hour faster than the speed set on the cruise control. The patrolman said this warning should be listed, on the drivers seat sun-visor - NEVER USE THE CRUISE CONTROL WHEN THE PAVEMENT IS WET OR ICY, along with the airbag warning. We tell our teenagers to set the cruise control and drive a safe speed-but we don't tell them to use the cruise control only when the pavement is dry. The only person the accident victim found, who knew this (besides the patrolman), was a man who had had a similar accident, totaled his car and sustained severe injuries. Pass this on, if only one person doesn't know about this, then it was all worth it. You might have saved a life. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 07:40:30 -0400 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: Re: fsj: j-truck cabs? *humpf* Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john meister" To: "Neal Hoover" Cc: Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 9:50 PM Subject: Re: fsj: j-truck cabs? > might be persuaded to mosey on over to South Dakota... havin' a > family reunion up in the northeast corner of the state next year... ;) > > sorry... you're just on the wrong side of the mountains... ;) > > john > > Neal Hoover wrote: > > you're KILLIN' me!!!! > > you wouldn't happen to be making any trips to the bluegrass state any time > > soon, wouldja?? > > > > Neal A. Hoover > > Project '76 J-10 > > Project '96 XJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "john meister" > > To: "Neal Hoover" > > Cc: > > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 1:38 PM > > Subject: Re: fsj: j-truck cabs? > > > > > > > >>scattered all over the place up here... > >> > >>I have three sitting down at my friend's shop... we're cutting them > >>up to extend my cab... (sorry). but I know of at least three > >>other J-trucks that are sitting dead up north of here... no, four... ;) > >> > >>john ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 07:42:02 -0400 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: Diesel project update... it should fit 35s if it has any kind of lift on it. Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john meister" To: "Neal Hoover" Cc: Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 9:51 PM Subject: fsj: Re: Diesel project update... > I don't care if it needs TLC... it actually makes it easier > to buy and then to carve up. :) > > Wondering if the stock '83 Jimmy will fit 35x12.5's... in order > to get the price down I let her keep the tires... any thoughts? > > The 'burb seemed to have more issues then this Jimmy. The 6.2L > in this thing is superb. Better then the nice one I had about 10 > years ago. > > john > > Neal Hoover wrote: > > "bummer" and "cool deal" both in the same story! > > good that the 6.2L sounds strong. > > > > lemme ask you, why would you care if the rig needs TLC, interior work, and > > paint? isn't the drivetrain going into Superdawg? > > > > Neal A. Hoover > > Project '76 J-10 > > Project '96 XJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "john meister" > > To: "fsj list" ; "curtis" ; > > "'dbl'" > > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 5:18 PM > > Subject: fsj: Diesel project update... > > > > > > > >>Turns out the salesman in Wenatchee that never returned my calls let the > >>'84 Suburan slip away... it sold yesterday... :( > >> > >>So, I'm digging into the piggy bank to buy the '83 GMC Jimmy I test drove > >>last weekend... managed to talk the owner down another $200 to let her > >>keep the brand new tires and rims... I hope the 35's I have in the > >>driveway will fit ok. ;) > >> > >>The 6.2L worked splendidly... no smoke, plenty of power, nice idle... > >>she's the 2nd owner... even has the window sticker... rig needs some > >>TLC, paint, interior work, but the driveline is in good shape. > >> > >>john ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 07:47:05 -0400 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Manifold / Carb replacement ok, lemme say this: i'm not a fan of carbs at all myself either. but, i've been familiar with Holley carbs for years and know them better then E-brock stuff (which i don't know at all). my j-truck came with the 600cfm Holley already on it, so i bought a $45 overhaul kit and rebuilt it myself. it's running great right now, btw. ;) but, if i were doing it from scratch, i would probably go with an E-brock carb as you suggested for much of the same reasons that you mentioned as well. that seems to be the general concensus from most people i've talked to. Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john meister" To: "Neal Hoover" Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 9:57 PM Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Manifold / Carb replacement > I went with a 600cfm holley on a performer manifold on Old Blue... > it was better then the stock 2v, picked up a mpg... but finally > dumped the holley and bought the Edelebrock Performer 1406 carb, > picked up another mpg and the Wag ran a LOT better. Holleys suck. ;) > The 1406 costs about the same as the Holley and has progressive > secondaries, better economy, smoother performance... > > john > > Neal Hoover wrote: > > dump that factory carb & get a rebuilt 4BBL 600cfm Holley. you can buy them > > cleaned and reuilt for only about $175 - $250. if you have any > > race/performance shops around you, stop in and see what they have available. > > of course, a TBI unit would be killer, but it's very pricey. i'd say you > > couldn't get much more bang for the buck that a nice 4BBL aftermarket carb. > > i'm running a Holley carb on top of an Edelbrock Performer intake manifold > > and a TB spacer. so far, i love it. > > > > Neal A. Hoover > > Project '76 J-10 > > Project '96 XJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 11:44 AM > > Subject: fsj: Manifold / Carb replacement > > > > > > > >>Got a question/dilemma, or perhaps the start of several dilemma's I'm > > > > hoping you all might be able to shed some insight/advice upon. > > > >>I've got an 86 GW I'm beginning to restore/update. My question is thus, > > > > how decent, performance-wise, is the stock carb on the 360's? Should I > > rebuild, replace with aftermarket manifold/carb, TBI, ??? I'm not looking > > for the ability to do serious off-roading at present (not too many places > > around Jackson, MS to do that) just looking for any increase in performance > > I can get get out of the engine. > > > >>Thanks in advance, > >> - Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:03:28 -0400 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Manifold / Carb replacement Matt- no, Holley carbs don't flat-out suck. (cut it out, john!!!) :p the truck avenger carb you mention is a ctually a very good carb. as far as adjustments go, Holleys don't have a ton of them. about the only thing a model 4160 carb has on it that's adjustable is the idle air/fuel mix, accelerator pump linkage, and the idle/fast idle settings. that's about it. the jets really don't need to be swapped out, and the power valve and metering blocks determine the running air/fuel mixes on their own. they're really pretty solid units. now, i'll go on to agree with john in that most Holleys are for street/strip performance applications. that means that smoothness and economy are almost secondary to performance and power. it all depends on what you're shooting for. Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Rankin" To: "john meister" ; "Neal Hoover" Cc: ; Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 1:52 AM Subject: RE: fsj: Re: Manifold / Carb replacement > Hey John, > Are the Holley carbs really that bad? I was seriously considering the Truck > Avenger (670 cfm). I liked the reviews that it got about being able to run > at low idle and at all angles of incline and decline. If you or anyone else > have more feedback, I'd love to hear it. > By the way, I've lived a very sheltered (spoiled) life. This is my first > carbureted vehicle. > > I'm also debating which intake to put in. The TA Performance 350 Stage one > or the Poston 350. Not that I have money to burn, just calculating the build > up. > > Peace and chicken grease, > Matthew > > 1969 Wagoneer 350/THM400 "Duncan" > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of > john meister > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 9:58 PM > To: Neal Hoover > Cc: carlsrm-at-bellsouth.net; fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Manifold / Carb replacement > > > I went with a 600cfm holley on a performer manifold on Old Blue... > it was better then the stock 2v, picked up a mpg... but finally > dumped the holley and bought the Edelebrock Performer 1406 carb, > picked up another mpg and the Wag ran a LOT better. Holleys suck. ;) > The 1406 costs about the same as the Holley and has progressive > secondaries, better economy, smoother performance... > > john > > Neal Hoover wrote: > > dump that factory carb & get a rebuilt 4BBL 600cfm Holley. you can buy > them > > cleaned and reuilt for only about $175 - $250. if you have any > > race/performance shops around you, stop in and see what they have > available. > > of course, a TBI unit would be killer, but it's very pricey. i'd say you > > couldn't get much more bang for the buck that a nice 4BBL aftermarket > carb. > > i'm running a Holley carb on top of an Edelbrock Performer intake manifold > > and a TB spacer. so far, i love it. > > > > Neal A. Hoover > > Project '76 J-10 > > Project '96 XJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 11:44 AM > > Subject: fsj: Manifold / Carb replacement > > > > > > > >>Got a question/dilemma, or perhaps the start of several dilemma's I'm > > > > hoping you all might be able to shed some insight/advice upon. > > > >>I've got an 86 GW I'm beginning to restore/update. My question is thus, > > > > how decent, performance-wise, is the stock carb on the 360's? Should I > > rebuild, replace with aftermarket manifold/carb, TBI, ??? I'm not looking > > for the ability to do serious off-roading at present (not too many places > > > around Jackson, MS to do that) just looking for any increase in > performance > > I can get get out of the engine. > > > >>Thanks in advance, > >> - Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:07:38 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Car Control (Hydroplaning) "Jim Blair" said: {- Okay guys. I'm confused by this. I would think the speedo wouldn't read past {- what it's set for and would actually drop speed when hydroplaning? http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/wetroad.asp This is misleading. The snopes comments touch on the truth, but not the details. Jim, you're correct; you won't pick up speed while hydroplaning unless you're going down a steep hill and have absolutely no friction to slow you down. (Imagine trying to stand still on hill covered with solid ice (packed and weather-smoothed snow). You'll start sliding and pick up speed going downhill. But this would be rare in hydroplaning conditions, and you wouldn't pick up much speed at all.) Just think it through logically. Hydroplaning, as well as sliding on ice, is simply a lack of friction. So you can spin the tires as fast as you want; it's not going to pick up speed while you're still hydroplaning. However, you won't be able to steer or slow down well at all. Not using your cruise control won't help control at this point, but it will keep your engine from overrevving and the tires from spinning faster. (Well, the latter could make it a bit harder to regain traction, but it won't make much difference.) To break out of a hydroplane, try to keep it straight, and if you're not going to hit anything right away, you may not have to brake. Just keep trying to keep it straight (or to straighten it out) and be patient til you get traction again. Otherwise, use the brakes appropriately to try to avoid collision, going off the road, etc. If you don't have ABS, pump the brakes. Either way, use the brakes as lightly as possible; don't slam on them (or pump them hard) unless you're in immediate danger of hitting something or going clear off the road; the less sudden the moves, the better chance you have of regaining control. When your tires get grip again, which means you're no longer hydroplaning, that's when your car could "launch" a bit if you have cruise control on (and your car has a lot of power). However, it will only try to resume up to your previous speed. If you haven't lost any significant speed yet, it could briefly go above your previous speed, but it will catch itself in a split second, usually quicker than your car can get back up to speed. Probably what happened to the people in the reports was that they lost 5-10mph of speed, and when they regained traction, since they hadn't touched the brakes, the cruise tried to resume the previous speed. With the power some of today's cars have, it could've "launched" a bit, but I can almost guarantee it didn't go over (or much over) the initial speed. Most of us on this list are probably good enough drivers that we can simply do what our instincts tell us in the situation. However, those who are a bit less-adept drivers could be overwhelmed by that sort of situation. (And since the person writing the article is supposedly from Texas, where they don't know what snow and ice are, it doesn't surprise me that they don't have much low-traction driving experience.) Chances are that if they hydroplane that badly, someone like that will lose control and go in the ditch or have an accident anyway, but it certainly wouldn't hurt for them to not use cruise control in slippery conditions. The best way to learn to be a better driver in these sorts of situations is to play around. Go out when it's raining or icy to an empty parking lot or other deserted area and practice. Start going, then slam on your brakes or crank the wheel or something to induce sliding, then try to recover. Start slow, then work your way up as you get the hang of it. You can't really describe the feel of sliding or how to recover to someone who has no experience with it. The best thing to do is to get the feel of it yourself when the conditions are as safe and controlled as possible. Just this morning on the way to work, I was making a right turn on green and there weren't any other cars right there, and I saw water on the road from someone's sprinkler. I intentionally took it just a little hard, slid the back end out a couple feet, and then snapped it back absolutely perfectly, planting the tires when the vehicle was absolutely straight. (Didn't even roll my ultra-dangerous gonna-flip-at-any-second devil's SUV. That's impossible!) Of course, I was ready for it, and I knew the traction would return immediately since the water was in such a small area. But known conditions are good practice, and fun. And, of course, if your 4wd system is safe (won't destroy itself) for the speeds you're going, you can use 4wd in the rain, and it will definitely help. Many of us with FSJs have 4wd that can be used at just about any speed. (Some of us don't have a choice, like the Quadratrac on the '74. Heck, that might not have spun a bit this morning.) {- ----- Original Message ----- {- Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:14 PM {- Subject: Car Control {- {- This is true (checked on http://www.snopes.com/) {- {- Prevent Hydroplaning -- A True story {- {- A 36 year old female had an accident several weeks ago and totaled her car. {- A {- resident of Kilgore, Texas, she was traveling between Gladewater & Kilgore. {- It {- was raining, though not excessive, when her car suddenly began to hydroplane {- and literally flew through the air. She was not seriously injured but very {- stunned at the sudden occurrence! {- {- When she explained to the highway patrolman what had happened he told her {- something that every driver should know-NEVER DRIVE IN THE RAIN WITH YOUR {- CRUISE CONTROL ON. She had thought she was being cautious by setting the {- cruise control and maintaining a safe consistent speed in the rain. {- {- But the highway patrolman told her that if the cruise control is on and your {- car begins to hydroplane -- when your tires loose contact with the pavement {- your car will accelerate to a higher rate of speed and you take off like an {- airplane. She told the patrolman that was exactly what occurred. We all know {- you have little or no control over a car when it begins to hydroplane. You a {- re {- at the mercy of the Good Lord. The highway patrol estimated her car was {- actually traveling through the air at 10 to 15 miles per hour faster than th {- e {- speed set on the cruise control. {- {- The patrolman said this warning should be listed, on the drivers seat {- sun-visor - NEVER USE THE CRUISE CONTROL WHEN THE PAVEMENT IS WET OR ICY, {- along with the airbag warning. We tell our teenagers to set the cruise contr {- ol {- and drive a safe speed-but we don't tell them to use the cruise control only {- when the pavement is dry. {- {- The only person the accident victim found, who knew this (besides the {- patrolman), was a man who had had a similar accident, totaled his car and {- sustained severe injuries. Pass this on, if only one person doesn't know abo {- ut {- this, then it was all worth it. You might have saved a life. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I love cats... They taste just like chicken. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:27:45 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Manifold / Carb replacement "Matthew Rankin" said: {- Are the Holley carbs really that bad? I was seriously considering the Truck {- Avenger (670 cfm). I liked the reviews that it got about being able to run {- at low idle and at all angles of incline and decline. If you or anyone else {- have more feedback, I'd love to hear it. {- > From: {- > To: {- > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 11:44 AM {- > Subject: fsj: Manifold / Carb replacement {- > {- >>Got a question/dilemma, or perhaps the start of several dilemma's I'm {- > hoping you all might be able to shed some insight/advice upon. {- >>I've got an 86 GW I'm beginning to restore/update. My question is thus, {- > how decent, performance-wise, is the stock carb on the 360's? Should I {- > rebuild, replace with aftermarket manifold/carb, TBI, ??? I'm not looking {- > for the ability to do serious off-roading at present (not too many places {- > around Jackson, MS to do that) just looking for any increase in {- performance {- > I can get get out of the engine. Yeah, ok, I'll weigh in again. I'm also an anti-Holley person. They're harder to tune at best, and don't work at all at worst, possibly costing you hundreds of dollars when you're hundreds of miles from home. *ahem* I've never actually tried one of their carbs, but if you're sticking with a carb, either rebuild it, have it rebuilt, or buy an Edelbrock Performer 4bbl carb (and intake manifold if you're switching from a stock 2bbl). I tried rebuilding the stock 4bbl Motorcraft in my '74, but I still couldn't get it to stop leaking, so I ended up buying a brand new Edelbrock, and it's been great. It could use a tiny bit of fine-tuning (it's a little rich), but it was good enough out of the box that it's not worth it to me to crack it open to do the adjustments. Just adjusted the idle mix screws, and that was it. Very simple swap. If you have the time and money, you could do the TBI fuel injection system like others have suggested. On my '88, my first TBI attempt was with a Holley Commander 950. To make a veeeeery long story short, it sucked. It did NOT work as it was supposed to -- among many other things, it would not usually take the changes I sent it from the laptop. A friend reading message boards has since seen at least half a dozen other people with exactly the same problems, and they kept sending them back to Holley for warranty replacement. I just got my money back (the right choice, but it still didn't pay the repair bills that were a direct result), and I switched to a CustomEFIs unit. Similar installation, though I can't tune it myself now, but it works MUCH better. I will continue to avoid Holley like the plague, and I have heard from many more people who are also passionate about avoiding Holley than people who like them. So if you can get them to work and like them, great; just don't expect any sympathy if it all goes south. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sometimes being an adult is exactly what you imagined it would be when you were five: staying up late and eating Lucky Charms for dinner. -- Ryan Rollinson - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2214 **************************