From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Aug 31 19:11:52 2004 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, September 1 2004 Volume 01 : Number 2231 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: manuals question Re: fsj: manuals question fsj: Re: RE: TF 727 fsj: Re: Successful GW tour of West fsj: GW wood trim part sought fsj: (no subject) Re: fsj: (no subject) fsj: RE: 89 GW To Do's Re: fsj: (no subject) Re: fsj: (no subject) fsj: Re: RE: 89 GW To Do's Re: fsj: Re: RE: 89 GW To Do's FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:10:42 -0400 From: "Matthew Rankin" Subject: fsj: manuals question Hey gang.... "hi-sign" (Little Rascals humor), I've been looking for a shop manual for my 69 Wagoneer (Chilton book is not always correct and I've quickly outgrown it's usage). Cheapest I could find on an actual manual was $80.00 (plus shipping) for a used one. I've seen a few on CD-ROM for about $30. Anyone purchased one of these CD-ROM manuals and how it compared to hard copy manuals? I like the idea of reviewing information at the PC and printing hard copies for reference while working on the Waggy. I'm really looking for whatever has the most accurate and plentiful information. But I am trying to watch my pennies (living on Top Ramen and kool-aid is getting old, but it is today's manna). Any feedback, suggestions or contacts are appreciate. Thank in advance for your time folks. In His grip, Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:16:47 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: manuals question the '69 Manual can be had for less then $30 in print form from more then one source, BJ's Offroad probably, but at Olympic 4x4 for sure... john On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Matthew Rankin wrote: >-->Hey gang.... "hi-sign" (Little Rascals humor), >--> >--> I've been looking for a shop manual for my 69 Wagoneer (Chilton book is not >-->always correct and I've quickly outgrown it's usage). Cheapest I could find >-->on an actual manual was $80.00 (plus shipping) for a used one. I've seen a >-->few on CD-ROM for about $30. Anyone purchased one of these CD-ROM manuals >-->and how it compared to hard copy manuals? I like the idea of reviewing >-->information at the PC and printing hard copies for reference while working >-->on the Waggy. >--> I'm really looking for whatever has the most accurate and plentiful >-->information. But I am trying to watch my pennies (living on Top Ramen and >-->kool-aid is getting old, but it is today's manna). Any feedback, suggestions >-->or contacts are appreciate. Thank in advance for your time folks. >--> >-->In His grip, >-->Matthew >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:32:40 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: RE: TF 727 A: The parts guys are out to lunch! AMC's ring gear is on the flywheel/flexplate. Dodge 727s are on the converter. IIRC though, it's only 1 number different. I'd check with a tranny shop to see what's up... john On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Mark Hayward wrote: >-->John, >-->That's exactly right, the starter ring should be on the flexplate, >-->that's how I've always seen it...until the replacement converter showed >-->up with the ring welded on. Everything else looked identical between the >-->two converters. >-->I asked the guy what I was supposed to do to transfer power from the >-->crank to the converter and he said "you probably just remove the ring >-->gear from the flexplate and bolt it on". >-->The guys at part stores know less and less anymore, and are totally lost >-->without their computers. >--> >-->-----Original Message----- >-->From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] >-->Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 2:53 PM >-->To: Mark Hayward >-->Cc: full size jeep list >-->Subject: RE: TF 727 >--> >--> >-->not sure what is what here... the teeth for the starter is usually on >-->the flexplate... the torque converter can move back and forth on the >-->flex plate a bit... not a good thing to try to mate the starter to. >--> >-->Hey, Jim... can you help Mark? >--> >-->john >--> >-->On Mon, 30 Aug 2004, Mark Hayward wrote: >--> >-->>-->John, >-->>-->Sorry to bother you again on my ongoing saga but .... >-->>-->I was in the local parts store (Advance Auto) trying to get a >-->>-->rebuilt torque converter for this TF727. They looked it up, ordered >-->>-->it and it came in with the ring gear welded to the case. The >-->>-->converter I got from the junkyard, which I can only assume was the >-->>-->correct one, had the ring gear attached to the flexplate ..... like >-->>-->a normal flexplate. The guy told me it wold work, I said how in the >-->>-->world am I supposed to get the power from the engine to the >-->>-->converter since there was no flexplate. He scratched his head and >-->>-->said "I have no idea". Also since the ring gear is welded to the >-->>-->case it makes my starter unuseable because it would have to protrude >-->into the bellhousing an additional 3/4" or so. >-->>--> >-->>-->Am I all wet here or what is going on? Shouldn't the torque >-->>-->converter bolt to the flexplate and in turn bot to the crank? I'm >-->>-->pretty sure the flexplate is correct because I pulled it from >-->>-->another GW with a 360 in it, not sure of the year but it was within >-->>-->a couple of years of the '85 I got the tranny out of. >-->>--> >-->>-->Thanks, Mark >-->>--> >-->>-->-----Original Message----- >-->>-->From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] >-->>-->Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 10:33 PM >-->>-->To: Mark Hayward >-->>-->Cc: full size jeep list; Jim Blair >-->>-->Subject: Re: TF 727 >-->>--> >-->>-->On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Mark Hayward wrote: >-->>-->Mark Hayward >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>-->>-->John, >-->>-->>-->I have a question regarding a TF727. I am changing out the T-18 >-->>-->>-->in my CJ with a TF727/Dana 300 combo and got a tranny from an 85 >--> >-->>-->>-->Wagoneer w/360 at the junkyard. I'm trying to get a new torque >-->>-->>-->converter for it and I contacted Art Carr and they tell me they >-->>-->>-->can only supply me a converter if it's a non lock-up. After >-->>-->>-->reading your >-->>--> >-->>-->>-->article, it appears they were all lock-ups after 1980. >-->>-->>-->Can I convert to non lock-up? I assume I'd have to change the >-->>-->flexplate? >-->>--> >-->>-->I can't see why not... no reason to change the flexplate either... >-->>-->it's all done inside the tranny. I'll pass this along to the fsj >-->>-->list, one of the guys on the list will have info... >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>-->>-->I use this CJ for competition so I think I'd like the non-lock >-->>-->>-->if possible. >-->>--> >-->>-->I think if you build up the 727 with a shift kit, and RV parts, use >-->>-->an external cooler and run amsoil synthetic ATF in it you'll be >-->ok... >-->>--> >-->>-->john >-->>--> >-->>-->>-->Thanks for your help. >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->Mark R. Hayward >-->>-->>-->Colorado Springs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:40:08 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: Successful GW tour of West When I overhauled the carb on my friend's '76 wag a couple years ago (with the much cheaper '69 Ford p/u 390 2bbl kit with single stage power valve) it was getting a steady 14 mpg. They drove to Spokane and down to Portland several times a week with it till they started having the Presto-no-lite dist trouble. At the time they didn't have the extra cash to get a DUI GM HEI dist conversion (http://www.zmjeeps.com ) so they sold it for about $2,000 more than they paid for it and let the new owner worry about the occaisional conk out on long trips. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:06:51 -0400 From: "Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR)" Subject: fsj: GW wood trim part sought I'm looking to buy the upper "wood" trim border piece for the left rear door of my 85 Grand Wagoneer. The wood on that side is sun-faded, so I'm looking for something decent, not stellar, to glue on. Thanks for any leads. Andrew Watry Berkeley, CA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:04:05 EDT From: Smokey99908-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: (no subject) Hi Folks (blinks lites to FSJers), Well Ive got the bug now, registered an 89 GW today (finally) and have an 88 4cyl cherokee. And some Qs about the GW i bought from g/f. When starting it, the starter stays engaged for about 30 secs after the engine starts. It also appears to run on 7 cyl.s at first, missing for a few minutes; and has heavy carbon buildup at tailpipe. Does this sound familiar to anyone? My plans are to do a fresh tuneup with the TFI ugrade Ive read about. Other upgrades will have to wait until the typical FSJ/GW problems get resolved (slow windows/doorlocks, fuel sending unit, fluid leaks, rust), power steering pump and fender/rocker panel sheet metal etc. Oh, I would like a backup fuel pump as it vapor locked a few months ago. Any recomendation or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:06:33 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: (no subject) On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 Smokey99908-at-aol.com wrote: >-->Hi Folks (blinks lites to FSJers), >--> >-->Well Ive got the bug now, registered an 89 GW today (finally) and have an 88 >-->4cyl cherokee. And some Qs about the GW i bought from g/f. >--> >-->When starting it, the starter stays engaged for about 30 secs after the >-->engine starts. It also appears to run on 7 cyl.s at first, missing for a few sounds like a sticking solenoid... could be related... check (replace) all vacuum lines... plugs, get some decent wires... I like Jacobs wires (but not the ignition stuff). john >-->minutes; and has heavy carbon buildup at tailpipe. Does this sound familiar to >-->anyone? >--> >--> My plans are to do a fresh tuneup with the TFI ugrade Ive read about. Other >-->upgrades will have to wait until the typical FSJ/GW problems get resolved >-->(slow windows/doorlocks, fuel sending unit, fluid leaks, rust), power steering >-->pump and fender/rocker panel sheet metal etc. Oh, I would like a backup fuel >-->pump as it vapor locked a few months ago. >--> >-->Any recomendation or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. >--> >-->Thanks, Bob >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:21:41 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: RE: 89 GW To Do's Change the oil a few times to get the sludge out/off. Pulling the valve covers is more of a pain than it looks, but a good place to clean. For the starter, I'd look at the the ignition switch for 12V going to the solenoid in run position, then to the solenoid for staying engaged on, a tap with a hammer while engaged may reveal that it is sticking. Heavy carbon at the tailpipe - probably the power valve (aka Economizer valve in the carb rebuild kit instructions) You can get these seperately special ordered from NAPA, probably get the later one, though Jim says to get one from a 69 Ford pickup with 390 cid for improved mileage. (I think there may be only two versions) This one will be especially obvious if you have billows of smoke at full throttle and lousy gas mileage(9mpg) Before you order the part, check that there is vacuum going to the front of the base of the carb (not the carbon cannister line, and not the distributor advance line) This vacuum line sucks the power valve closed at part throttle, and it opens up at full throttle. If it's open all the time, you know you've got carbon coming. Yup, the TFI upgrade is good. I'd try to find an MSD version of the TFI coil. Very tough, after not such good luck with pretenders. See instructions on lubing the rear window...and chassis lube in general, and the double cardan joint, and the transfer case fluid (ATF, not gear lube, regardless of what the PO thought) and two leads from the alternator to the battery for charge circuit and grouds from chassis to engine to frame to chassis to battery to hitch (yes the trailer hitch was insulated, don't ask me how) What temp is it running at? Thermostat should be 192-195. PO may have put in a 160. Get the longest fresh air intake hose you can and run it to the port by the battery. Replace the hoses between the radiator and the hard lines to the transmission. Fuel filter. Get a spare duraspark module or an MSD box. Get a stereo you can actually listen to...OK, OK Have fun. Landon 89 GW - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Smokey99908-at-aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 6:04 PM To: fsj-at-digest.net Subject: fsj: (no subject) Hi Folks (blinks lites to FSJers), Well Ive got the bug now, registered an 89 GW today (finally) and have an 88 4cyl cherokee. And some Qs about the GW i bought from g/f. When starting it, the starter stays engaged for about 30 secs after the engine starts. It also appears to run on 7 cyl.s at first, missing for a few minutes; and has heavy carbon buildup at tailpipe. Does this sound familiar to anyone? My plans are to do a fresh tuneup with the TFI ugrade Ive read about. Other upgrades will have to wait until the typical FSJ/GW problems get resolved (slow windows/doorlocks, fuel sending unit, fluid leaks, rust), power steering pump and fender/rocker panel sheet metal etc. Oh, I would like a backup fuel pump as it vapor locked a few months ago. Any recomendation or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:28:05 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: (no subject) On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 Smokey99908-at-aol.com wrote: >-->In a message dated 8/31/2004 7:07:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >-->john-at-wagoneers.com writes: >--> >-->> Jacobs wires >--> >-->thanks john, i'll try the jacobs. Are you a fan of TFI? not sure what TFI is... if it's throttle body fuel injection, you bet... recommend Howell Engineering's version. :) otherwise I'm not sure. ;) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:41:15 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: fsj: (no subject) On Tue, Aug 31, 2004 at 04:28:05PM -0700, john wrote: > not sure what TFI is... if it's throttle body fuel injection, > you bet... recommend Howell Engineering's version. :) Ford's Thin Film Ignition, appearing starting in 83-85 somewhere, and ending in 93. (82 wagon didn't have it, 85 ranger and 86 wagon did, 93 bronco did, 94 crown vic didn't). Basically, Duraspark on steroids. Be ware, the TFI module is hypersensitive to heat, hence Found On Road Dead. If the module overheats, it *WILL* strand you, so pay careful attention to where you put the module. Performancewise, it ranks right up there above HEI for ungodly hot spark, and does not drop off at high RPM like HEI can stock, but HEI is far simpler if you don't need to worry about it not looking stock. If you do a TFI upgrade, the ford v8s I've played with that had it liked the gap to be huge - like around .055 or so. Running around with a stock gap doesn't help much with a TFI upgrade. There's tons of stuff out on the web about it and what it does and how the upgrade goes. I've never done the upgrade on a ford, much less an amc or jeep with duraspark. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:45:09 -0400 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: fsj: Re: RE: 89 GW To Do's this may be just me, but i don't know why Zack's HEI ignition upgrade shouldn't be a shoe-in on everyone's upgrade list. it's affordable, and (by HEI standards), very reliable, and a huge improvement over the stock schtuff. plus, it gets rid of all that junk on the fender well. and no, i have no vested interest in zmjeeps.com Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tesar Landon-r16884" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 7:21 PM Subject: fsj: RE: 89 GW To Do's > Change the oil a few times to get the sludge out/off. Pulling the valve covers is more of a pain than it looks, but a good place to clean. > For the starter, I'd look at the the ignition switch for 12V going to the solenoid in run position, then to the solenoid for staying engaged on, a tap with a hammer while engaged may reveal that it is sticking. > > Heavy carbon at the tailpipe - probably the power valve (aka Economizer valve in the carb rebuild kit instructions) You can get these seperately special ordered from NAPA, probably get the later one, though Jim says to get one from a 69 Ford pickup with 390 cid for improved mileage. (I think there may be only two versions) This one will be especially obvious if you have billows of smoke at full throttle and lousy gas mileage(9mpg) Before you order the part, check that there is vacuum going to the front of the base of the carb (not the carbon cannister line, and not the distributor advance line) This vacuum line sucks the power valve closed at part throttle, and it opens up at full throttle. If it's open all the time, you know you've got carbon coming. > Yup, the TFI upgrade is good. I'd try to find an MSD version of the TFI coil. Very tough, after not such good luck with pretenders. > See instructions on lubing the rear window...and chassis lube in general, and the double cardan joint, and the transfer case fluid (ATF, not gear lube, regardless of what the PO thought) and two leads from the alternator to the battery for charge circuit and grouds from chassis to engine to frame to chassis to battery to hitch (yes the trailer hitch was insulated, don't ask me how) > What temp is it running at? Thermostat should be 192-195. PO may have put in a 160. > Get the longest fresh air intake hose you can and run it to the port by the battery. > Replace the hoses between the radiator and the hard lines to the transmission. Fuel filter. Get a spare duraspark module or an MSD box. Get a stereo you can actually listen to...OK, OK > > Have fun. > > Landon > 89 GW > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Smokey99908-at-aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 6:04 PM > To: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: (no subject) > > > Hi Folks (blinks lites to FSJers), > > Well Ive got the bug now, registered an 89 GW today (finally) and have an 88 > 4cyl cherokee. And some Qs about the GW i bought from g/f. > > When starting it, the starter stays engaged for about 30 secs after the > engine starts. It also appears to run on 7 cyl.s at first, missing for a few > minutes; and has heavy carbon buildup at tailpipe. Does this sound familiar to > anyone? > > My plans are to do a fresh tuneup with the TFI ugrade Ive read about. Other > upgrades will have to wait until the typical FSJ/GW problems get resolved > (slow windows/doorlocks, fuel sending unit, fluid leaks, rust), power steering > pump and fender/rocker panel sheet metal etc. Oh, I would like a backup fuel > pump as it vapor locked a few months ago. > > Any recomendation or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:09:10 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: RE: 89 GW To Do's got a link to it? probably won't use it on the Diesel J10... or on the 4.0L conversion... but still sounds interesting. :) john On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Neal Hoover wrote: >-->this may be just me, but i don't know why Zack's HEI ignition upgrade >-->shouldn't be a shoe-in on everyone's upgrade list. it's affordable, and (by >-->HEI standards), very reliable, and a huge improvement over the stock >-->schtuff. plus, it gets rid of all that junk on the fender well. >-->and no, i have no vested interest in zmjeeps.com >--> >-->Neal A. Hoover >-->Project '76 J-10 >-->Project '96 XJ >-->----- Original Message ----- >-->From: "Tesar Landon-r16884" >-->To: ; >-->Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 7:21 PM >-->Subject: fsj: RE: 89 GW To Do's >--> >--> >-->> Change the oil a few times to get the sludge out/off. Pulling the valve >-->covers is more of a pain than it looks, but a good place to clean. >-->> For the starter, I'd look at the the ignition switch for 12V going to the >-->solenoid in run position, then to the solenoid for staying engaged on, a tap >-->with a hammer while engaged may reveal that it is sticking. >-->> >-->> Heavy carbon at the tailpipe - probably the power valve (aka Economizer >-->valve in the carb rebuild kit instructions) You can get these seperately >-->special ordered from NAPA, probably get the later one, though Jim says to >-->get one from a 69 Ford pickup with 390 cid for improved mileage. (I think >-->there may be only two versions) This one will be especially obvious if you >-->have billows of smoke at full throttle and lousy gas mileage(9mpg) Before >-->you order the part, check that there is vacuum going to the front of the >-->base of the carb (not the carbon cannister line, and not the distributor >-->advance line) This vacuum line sucks the power valve closed at part >-->throttle, and it opens up at full throttle. If it's open all the time, you >-->know you've got carbon coming. >-->> Yup, the TFI upgrade is good. I'd try to find an MSD version of the TFI >-->coil. Very tough, after not such good luck with pretenders. >-->> See instructions on lubing the rear window...and chassis lube in general, >-->and the double cardan joint, and the transfer case fluid (ATF, not gear >-->lube, regardless of what the PO thought) and two leads from the alternator >-->to the battery for charge circuit and grouds from chassis to engine to frame >-->to chassis to battery to hitch (yes the trailer hitch was insulated, don't >-->ask me how) >-->> What temp is it running at? Thermostat should be 192-195. PO may have >-->put in a 160. >-->> Get the longest fresh air intake hose you can and run it to the port by >-->the battery. >-->> Replace the hoses between the radiator and the hard lines to the >-->transmission. Fuel filter. Get a spare duraspark module or an MSD box. >-->Get a stereo you can actually listen to...OK, OK >-->> >-->> Have fun. >-->> >-->> Landon >-->> 89 GW >-->> -----Original Message----- >-->> From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of >-->Smokey99908-at-aol.com >-->> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 6:04 PM >-->> To: fsj-at-digest.net >-->> Subject: fsj: (no subject) >-->> >-->> >-->> Hi Folks (blinks lites to FSJers), >-->> >-->> Well Ive got the bug now, registered an 89 GW today (finally) and have an >-->88 >-->> 4cyl cherokee. And some Qs about the GW i bought from g/f. >-->> >-->> When starting it, the starter stays engaged for about 30 secs after the >-->> engine starts. It also appears to run on 7 cyl.s at first, missing for a >-->few >-->> minutes; and has heavy carbon buildup at tailpipe. Does this sound >-->familiar to >-->> anyone? >-->> >-->> My plans are to do a fresh tuneup with the TFI ugrade Ive read about. >-->Other >-->> upgrades will have to wait until the typical FSJ/GW problems get resolved >-->> (slow windows/doorlocks, fuel sending unit, fluid leaks, rust), power >-->steering >-->> pump and fender/rocker panel sheet metal etc. Oh, I would like a backup >-->fuel >-->> pump as it vapor locked a few months ago. >-->> >-->> Any recomendation or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. >-->> >-->> Thanks, Bob >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2231 **************************