From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Sep 26 22:03:04 2004 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, September 27 2004 Volume 01 : Number 2259 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions fsj: Re: 401/TBI update Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions + JERRARI ARTICLE Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions + JERRARI ARTICLE Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions fsj: Re: 2.5 distributor fsj: Re: xj: Re: 2.5 distributor FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:22:57 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions John, you may want to forward this on if he's not on the list. I didn't see any email address quoted. john said: {- >-->(3) Need to know factory correct tire size. I'm thinking it should have {- come from factory with 6-ply bias 7.50/15. Can't seem to find any more than {- 2-ply radials in my area and think that's too soft a sidewall for non-assist {- ed steering. Your thoughts? {- {- 235 75r 15's will work nicely, as will 30x9.5s. I'm not sure what the exac {- t stock {- size correlation is, I think the default size something like 225/r75. I fin {- d that {- 235's are ideal, but 30x9.5's look great... with a little bit of lift even 3 {- 1's are {- ok, actually with about 2" 235's look fine. YMMV. :) When I asked on the email list a few years back, they said if your suspension is still as high as it should be (no "Wag sag"), you can get 31x10.5 tires, and they'll just rub a little when your wheels are turned almost all the way (i.e., enough that you won't be going fast anyway). They were dead on -- I got that size for my '74 Wag (with stock original suspension), and it has always been exactly as they said. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 13:59:20 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions In a message dated 9/26/2004 9:31:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net writes: >Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:26:29 -0700 (PDT) >From: john _john-at-wagoneers.com_ (mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com) > >On Sat, 25 Sep 2004, Paul Novak wrote: > >>-->Dear Sir: >>-->I am the happy owner of a '67 Wagoneer (one of very few still roadworthy in the U.S. as >>near as I can tell). It has the 327 Vigilante v8, AT, PB and no other modern conveniences >>(suits me just fine). >>-->Questions: >>-->(1) Will a universal dash-mounted ignition switch replace the factory switch? It should. Napa carries one for my '71 Wagoneer that works and would probably work for you even if their books don't go back that far. I don't like the non-stock look of it so I'm waiting until I'm desperate before I install it. Anytime you need a part that's not engine specific, there's a good chance it will be the same as other years up through '72. That was the last year of Kaiser-design FSJs. After that AMC began to make major changes. The factory service manual covers '65 up through '70 with an AMC engine supplement for '71. Thats a pretty good indicator that things didn't change too much through those years. >>-->(2) Where can I find a reconditioned water pump or pump bushing kit for this engine? > >I'd got to NAPA, or find a Crown Distributer. >If the parts guy says the words Chevy or Studebaker when looking up >the part numbers, and they're not saying that those are NOT what he's >looking for, run. They don't have a clue. IF they say AMC, Nash, >Hudson, or preferrably Kaiser, then you're ok. :) (snip) What John said goes double for me. >>-->(3) Need to know factory correct tire size. I'm thinking it should have come from factory >with 6-ply bias 7.50/15. Can't seem to find any more than 2-ply radials in my area and think >that's too soft a sidewall for non-assisted steering. Your thoughts? > >235 75r 15's will work nicely, as will 30x9.5s. I'm not sure what the exact stock >size correlation is, I think the default size something like 225/r75. I find that >235's are ideal, but 30x9.5's look great... with a little bit of lift even 31's are >ok, actually with about 2" 235's look fine. YMMV. :) The original tire should have been 7.75 - 15, 4 ply, on a 5.5" wide rim. I don't know what that means in modern terms, but I think it works out to a 28" diameter tire. I've got 30" 235s on my '71 and the speedo reads 10% low. >>-->(4) What is the correct procedure to remove the front brake drums for service and >should this model have automatic brake adjusters? > >I believe the '67's had automatic adjusters. I can't remember the procedure to remove >the front brake drums... I got rid of my '67 in '92... Any brake shop or front end >shop will know... I think it may involve pulling the front hubs and bearings... >May need a special tool... If you're not concerned about keeping it 100% original, >I'd recommend swapping in an axle (or axles) from a '75-'79 Wagoneer to upgrade the >brakes and the axles... remember to swap the master cylinder as well. You'll get >disk brakes and a tighter turning radius! Yeah, it should have self-adjusters. After you take the wheel off you can just pull the drum off. If you can't work it off then you'll have to back the adjuster off to pull the shoes away from the drum. It can be tedious, but just keep going until you can't go anymore or the drum comes off. You can tell you're adjusting it the right way by whether or not the drum is getting looserer or tightererer. John's suggestion about the axle swap is correct, but I don't recommend it. It's a real can of worms. I did the research and gathered all the parts about 5 years ago but it just doesn't seem worth the effort. Once your drum brakes are all working well they'll probably be plenty good enough. >>-->Thanks for your help-no one in my area seems to know much about this model and I >would like to be able to maintain the car properly and continue to have it safely driveable. That's an achievable goal. I successfully use my '71 as a reliable family wagon on long road trips and for routine commuting. There aren't alot of people anywhere that know much about Kaiser-era FSJ's so you'll have to become your own expert. >>-->Paul Novak---Saint joseph, MO >>-->P.S. I am consistently getting 18mpg highway and 13-14mpg city. Not bad for its age >and size, eh? That's good mileage. I once got 15 mph, but don't trust it since it wasn't repeatable. I now get 13 mpg at 70 mph with 3.31s. Be sure to check the accuracy of your speedo and include the correction factor when you calculate mileage. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 15:05:54 EDT From: DRIVEIN59-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions I also own a 67 I am getting up and running. The water pump is available from NAPA I replaced mine on the 327. 30.00 plus core. Drum brakes will do the job to stop the old beast. The hubs are cauterized to the hub on these old trucks. This means it will need to be pulled as an assembly. This will give you a chance to replace ALL the front wheel and Axle seals at the same time. Take your drum/hub assembly to a reputable brake shop and have them remove the cauterized lip from the stud coming through the drum. This will make the drum serviceable without removing the hub. Doing the brakes today on the old FREE 67 I will keep you posted. Dennis Russell Lynnwood WA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 13:04:02 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions not knowing what his sag factor is, and having seen 31's on a stock FSJ... I think 30's are as big as one should go with a stock fsj to make it look good. ;) john On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Dan Black wrote: >-->John, you may want to forward this on if he's not on the list. I didn't >-->see any email address quoted. >--> >-->john said: >-->{- >-->(3) Need to know factory correct tire size. I'm thinking it should have >-->{- come from factory with 6-ply bias 7.50/15. Can't seem to find any more than >-->{- 2-ply radials in my area and think that's too soft a sidewall for non-assist >-->{- ed steering. Your thoughts? >-->{- >-->{- 235 75r 15's will work nicely, as will 30x9.5s. I'm not sure what the exac >-->{- t stock >-->{- size correlation is, I think the default size something like 225/r75. I fin >-->{- d that >-->{- 235's are ideal, but 30x9.5's look great... with a little bit of lift even 3 >-->{- 1's are >-->{- ok, actually with about 2" 235's look fine. YMMV. :) >--> >-->When I asked on the email list a few years back, they said if your >-->suspension is still as high as it should be (no "Wag sag"), you can get >-->31x10.5 tires, and they'll just rub a little when your wheels are turned >-->almost all the way (i.e., enough that you won't be going fast anyway). >-->They were dead on -- I got that size for my '74 Wag (with stock original >-->suspension), and it has always been exactly as they said. >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, >--> for you are crunchy and good with ketchup. >-->-------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 17:37:09 -0400 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: fsj: Re: 401/TBI update cool stuff, Dan. keep up the good work! Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Black" To: "Full Size Jeeps" Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 11:37 AM Subject: fsj: 401/TBI update > Got a new computer for the TBI on my '88 (which now has a remanufactured > 401). It's supposed to let us work out the fuel maps without trading > chips in the mail. (This is using a CustomEFIs system.) > > The chip he has in it still isn't perfect, but it's better than the one > he first sent for the 401, which was an initial guess chip (and works > pretty ok for a first guess). Specifically, it's still a bit off in the > lower revs, especially driving in town with a lot of stop-and-go. Even > had a small backfire this morning (which happened every couple days with > the other chip, too). But it's still running a lot smoother even in > those ranges. > > Anyway, I ran some 0-60 + 1/4mi tests last night. My best run was 0-60 > in 9.03, 1/4mi in 16.92 -at-83.4mph. (First gear went up to about 45mph, > second up to about 70 or 75...) Pretty good results. IIRC, the stock > 360 2bbl was in the 15-16sec range for 0-60, and in the 20-21sec 1/4mi > range -at-65-70mph. I think the TBI on the 360 cut it down to 11-12sec > 0-60, probably 18-19sec 1/4mi at 75mph or so. I can get single-digit > 0-60s every single time now, and under 18sec 1/4mi at over 80mph every > time. Even squealed the tires from a stop once when I really nailed the > gas. (And it's really easy to squeal the tires making a 90deg turn from > a stop at an intersection, so I don't hit it very hard there anymore.) > > I'll bet my mileage sucks this tank... ;) > > It will be interesting to see what happens when I get the chip > perfected, and when I finally get around to putting the different gears > and tires on. I currently have the stock 2.72 gears and 235/75/15 > tires. I have 3.54 gears (with rear posi) ready to go in, and want to > get 31x10.5 tires (like are on the '74) with those, which should bring > the overall ratio to about 3.25. So lowering the gears that much and > adding the posi might help that stuff even more -- can't hurt. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----- > WARNING! Driver only carries $20.00 in ammunition. > -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:14:54 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions + JERRARI ARTICLE john said: {- not knowing what his sag factor is, and having seen 31's on {- a stock FSJ... I think 30's are as big as one should go {- with a stock fsj to make it look good. ;) I disagree. Here are pics of my '74 with the 31x10.5s: http://dan.black.org/74Wag/ I have more, with it crawling up a little rockpile I had in my driveway, but I think that's on my work machine, and I can't find them right now from home. I'll try to find them tomorrow if I remember. ACK! I just realized I never posted the scanned Jerrari article. Andrew sent them over a week ago, and I scanned them a week ago Friday, but never actually put them in a web directory and told everybody about them. It's a two-page article, and it is NOT the Jerrari from the museum... The body and year and everything is different. So the article is in http://dan.black.org/Jerrari/ The pdf directory has two pdfs, one being the two-page article just as it appeared, and a four-page version where I split the image half of each page from the text and blew it up (well, technically, just didn't shrink the original scan as much) to full-page in landscape. The pics directory has just the pictures, individually cropped out and saved at the original size I scanned them. I have pngs if anybody wants them, but they're much larger, and I really think these jpgs are good enough; the quality bottleneck is in the original magazine, and it's still pretty good quality. The text page has 1024-width jpg graphics of the individual pages I used for the pdfs. The original was b&w, so you're not missing anything here. Many thanks to Andrew for sending me the article! (Andrew, you didn't need the article back, did you, since it was a photocopy? I can send it back if you want, though.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 20:49:04 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 Brazzadog-at-aol.com wrote: >-->The original tire should have been 7.75 - 15, 4 ply, on a 5.5" wide rim. I >-->don't know what that means in modern terms, but I think it works out to a 28" >-->diameter tire. I've got 30" 235s on my '71 and the speedo reads 10% low. 235/75r15s should be about 28.88 inches 30x9.5's are 29.3" 31x10.5's are about 30.3" of course there is a little variation btwn makers and models... next time you're on the green side of the mountains swing by and we'll fire up the GPS and verify... ;) >-->John's suggestion about the axle swap is correct, but I don't recommend it. >-->It's a real can of worms. I did the research and gathered all the parts >-->about 5 years ago but it just doesn't seem worth the effort. Once your drum >-->brakes are all working well they'll probably be plenty good enough. I forgot about the spring mount issue... oops... I think you're probably right Ben... :) >-->That's an achievable goal. I successfully use my '71 as a reliable family >-->wagon on long road trips and for routine commuting. There aren't alot of >-->people anywhere that know much about Kaiser-era FSJ's so you'll have to become >-->your own expert. Ben, you're lucky you don't have a Kaiser-era FSJ... AMC rescued Jeep officially in 1970. Of course AMC's influence can be seen earlier on... with significant contributions as early as '68. I didn't save the guy's email address either... hopefully he signed up on the list, worst case scenario he can read it in the digests on the server. :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 20:56:28 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions + JERRARI ARTICLE On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Dan Black wrote: >-->john said: >-->{- not knowing what his sag factor is, and having seen 31's on >-->{- a stock FSJ... I think 30's are as big as one should go >-->{- with a stock fsj to make it look good. ;) >--> >-->I disagree. Here are pics of my '74 with the 31x10.5s: >--> http://dan.black.org/74Wag/ exactly what I mean... they look too big... they make you notice the rust... 30x9.5's look better, have that macho look but not the stuffed saggy look... lift it or lose those gumbos... Hey, I've got a deal for you, I'll swap those oversized tires for a nice set of 235's... they're sweet... and totally useless on my Jimmy. ;) and they're mounted on the same style rim too... :) >-->I have more, with it crawling up a little rockpile I had in my driveway, >-->but I think that's on my work machine, and I can't find them right now >-->from home. I'll try to find them tomorrow if I remember. that's ok, you've made my point, thank you... ;) rofl... >-->ACK! I just realized I never posted the scanned Jerrari article. >-->Andrew sent them over a week ago, and I scanned them a week ago Friday, >-->but never actually put them in a web directory and told everybody about >-->them. >--> >-->It's a two-page article, and it is NOT the Jerrari from the museum... >-->The body and year and everything is different. yep... >--> >-->So the article is in >--> http://dan.black.org/Jerrari/ dan.black.org is not on line... :( >--> >-->The pdf directory has two pdfs, one being the two-page article just as >-->it appeared, and a four-page version where I split the image half of >-->each page from the text and blew it up (well, technically, just didn't >-->shrink the original scan as much) to full-page in landscape. >--> >-->The pics directory has just the pictures, individually cropped out and >-->saved at the original size I scanned them. I have pngs if anybody wants >-->them, but they're much larger, and I really think these jpgs are good >-->enough; the quality bottleneck is in the original magazine, and it's >-->still pretty good quality. >--> >-->The text page has 1024-width jpg graphics of the individual pages I used >-->for the pdfs. >--> >-->The original was b&w, so you're not missing anything here. >--> >-->Many thanks to Andrew for sending me the article! (Andrew, you didn't >-->need the article back, did you, since it was a photocopy? I can send it >-->back if you want, though.) >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? >-->-------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:03:07 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions If the drum is supposed to come off when you remove the tires, which I believe it is. AND, if they're really stuck on there... we used to heat up the drum near the center and wail on it with a hammer... worked every time to get rusty hubs off... :) I hope our friend with the '67 got on the FSJ list... saw lots of responses... been out working in the yard all day.... haven't seen a digest since the first post, but one is due any time... http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/digests/ john On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 DRIVEIN59-at-aol.com wrote: >-->I also own a 67 I am getting up and running. >--> >-->The water pump is available from NAPA I replaced mine on the 327. >-->30.00 plus core. >--> >-->Drum brakes will do the job to stop the old beast. The hubs are cauterized to >-->the hub on these old trucks. This means it will need to be pulled as an >-->assembly. >-->This will give you a chance to replace ALL the front wheel and Axle seals at >-->the same time. >-->Take your drum/hub assembly to a reputable brake shop and have them remove >-->the >-->cauterized lip from the stud coming through the drum. This will make the drum >-->serviceable without removing the hub. >-->Doing the brakes today on the old FREE 67 I will keep you posted. >-->Dennis Russell >-->Lynnwood WA >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:11:45 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: 2.5 distributor On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 BANDVBAR-at-aol.com wrote: >-->Hi John - I got your email address from an exerpt from a book on amc. I am >-->planning to put an amc 2.5 four in a triumph spitfire. I would like to use a >-->weber 32/36 carburetor and a mechanical advance (no electronic control module) >-->distributor. Did amc ever produce the 2.5 engine with this type of >-->distributor? If not, can I use the distributor from a 232 or 258 and just change the >-->points cam from six to four lobes? Any help would be greatly appreciated. >-->Thanks - Vince This will be a pretty cool setup... As simple as the 2.5L is, why not use the ecm? The weber carbs are great. Of course I'd suggest going with the TBI, but hey, sounds like you want to do things the hard way. ;) As far as a suitable distributer, Jeep made a 4 banger and put it in the CJ. I'd just probe around the bobtails for a 4 banger and scarf one of those up. I would think that a distributor from a 258 might work... but trying to remember where the oil pumps are... the 258 and 4.0L share a few things, and of course the 2.5L must have some of the 258 characteristics as the 4.0L was developed after the 2.5L. email address from an excerpt from a book on amc? sounds interesting, what book? Was it on line or in print? :) I've been wanting to write a book on FSJ's for some time... it looks like I may be writing a book on UNIX first, one publisher has been trying to get me to do it for almost a year now... Once I finish that maybe I'll get serious about a Jeep book... probably will include XJs and WJs, seeing as how Jeep is making the Grand Cherokee look more like a Durango this year... ;) That spitfire should have a lot of low end grunt... Back in high school I wanted either an MGB GT or a Lotus Europa Special... actually found a lotus europa here, it's mine for only $11k if I really want it... ;) I think I'll wait... plenty of jeep projects keeping me busy... :) ttyl, john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 22:02:39 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: xj: Re: 2.5 distributor A: There is a couple things to note. The TBI system is very simple and so is the CDI ignition, but the stock carbs sucked and the Motorcraft ECM would require a nutter bypass because of the feedback junk. They never came with a points dist because it first came out in '84. (The Chev Iron Duke did, but that's not an AMC motor. The CJs never came with the AMC motor AFAIK) You should be able to swap the insides of the Motorcraft dist with a '73 Pinto 2.3L points dist, but I haven't done it. (I have swapped the insides of a Ford 390 and 400 dist, which made the 390 electronic and 400 points. Won a few bets with that too! Also did a '72 170 6 cyl with '75 300 6 cyl parts when I put the smaller motor in my 1/2 ton van) From: john Subject: xj: Re: 2.5 distributor On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 BANDVBAR-at-aol.com wrote: >-->Hi John - I got your email address from an exerpt from a book on amc. I >am >-->planning to put an amc 2.5 four in a triumph spitfire. I would like to >use a >-->weber 32/36 carburetor and a mechanical advance (no electronic control >module) >-->distributor. Did amc ever produce the 2.5 engine with this type of >-->distributor? If not, can I use the distributor from a 232 or 258 and >just change the >-->points cam from six to four lobes? Any help would be greatly >appreciated. >-->Thanks - Vince This will be a pretty cool setup... As simple as the 2.5L is, why not use the ecm? The weber carbs are great. Of course I'd suggest going with the TBI, but hey, sounds like you want to do things the hard way. ;) As far as a suitable distributer, Jeep made a 4 banger and put it in the CJ. I'd just probe around the bobtails for a 4 banger and scarf one of those up. I would think that a distributor from a 258 might work... but trying to remember where the oil pumps are... the 258 and 4.0L share a few things, and of course the 2.5L must have some of the 258 characteristics as the 4.0L was developed after the 2.5L. email address from an excerpt from a book on amc? sounds interesting, what book? Was it on line or in print? :) I've been wanting to write a book on FSJ's for some time... it looks like I may be writing a book on UNIX first, one publisher has been trying to get me to do it for almost a year now... Once I finish that maybe I'll get serious about a Jeep book... probably will include XJs and WJs, seeing as how Jeep is making the Grand Cherokee look more like a Durango this year... ;) That spitfire should have a lot of low end grunt... Back in high school I wanted either an MGB GT or a Lotus Europa Special... actually found a lotus europa here, it's mine for only $11k if I really want it... ;) I think I'll wait... plenty of jeep projects keeping me busy... :) ttyl, john ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2259 **************************