From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Sep 27 11:33:27 2004 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, September 27 2004 Volume 01 : Number 2260 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions + JERRARI ARTICLE fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions + JERRARI ARTICLE fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions fsj: Re: mj box Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions fsj: 85 PW knocking question Re: fsj: 85 PW knocking question FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:45:21 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions In a message dated 9/26/2004 8:53:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, john-at-wagoneers.com writes: >On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 Brazzadog-at-aol.com wrote: >>-->The original tire should have been 7.75 - 15, 4 ply, on a 5.5" wide rim. I >>-->don't know what that means in modern terms, but I think it works out to a 28" >>-->diameter tire. I've got 30" 235s on my '71 and the speedo reads 10% low. > >235/75r15s should be about 28.88 inches >30x9.5's are 29.3" >31x10.5's are about 30.3" > >of course there is a little variation btwn makers and models... > >next time you're on the green side of the mountains swing by and >we'll fire up the GPS and verify... ;) Ooops. You're right. I mis-remembered everything by about 2". My 235s are nearly 28", loaded. That makes the stock tire 26", unloaded. That's based on my speedo correction factor. I guess I've got my rig so reliable that I don't have to work on it enough to keep track of this stuff anymore. It might also have to do with the fact that I'm trying to keep 6 vehicles roadworthy and I'm just plain confused. I have to look alot of stuff up these days. I'll take you up on that offer to check my speedo with the GPS. I made it west of Cle Elum a few weeks ago, but that's probably as close as I'll get until the passes re-open in the spring. I consider myself a pretty seasoned driver in winter weather conditions, but there are just too many foolish drivers on the passes for me to put myself in harms way unless road conditions are optimal. Last time I came over Snoqualmie I swore I'd never do it again if the temps were not well above freezing. I don't know if all those fools on the pass were from your side or my side, but it's just not worth it. (snip) >Ben, you're lucky you don't have a Kaiser-era FSJ... AMC rescued Jeep officially >in 1970. Of course AMC's influence can be seen earlier on... with significant >contributions as early as '68. I've got to disagree with you here. Although my rig does have both AMC and Kaiser logo's on it, it is definitely of pre-AMC influence in every significant way except the engine and grill. While Wagoneer body and glass is pretty much universal, there is a significant divergence between parts interchange beginning with the '73 model year. Earlier FSJs did use AMC engines, but little else was molested until '73, with even greater changes to follow. I've spent alot of time in junkyards looking for Wagoneer parts and I don't bother looking at anything later than '72. Sometimes a '73 fools me until I get a look at the interior, but that's about the limit. >I didn't save the guy's email address either... hopefully he signed up >on the list, worst case scenario he can read it in the digests on the >server. :) Too bad. He needs us : ) Ben Williams '68 Pontiac Catalina '71 Wagoneer '78 Cherokee '78 F250 '79 F350 '88 Bronco ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:51:13 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions john said: {- On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 Brazzadog-at-aol.com wrote: {- >-->I've got 30" 235s on my '71 and the speedo reads 10% low. {- {- 235/75r15s should be about 28.88 inches {- 30x9.5's are 29.3" {- 31x10.5's are about 30.3" {- {- of course there is a little variation btwn makers and models... {- {- next time you're on the green side of the mountains swing by and {- we'll fire up the GPS and verify... ;) I thought I figured the 235/75/15s to be closer to 27", just a bit over... Figured going to the 31" was going to be almost exactly 10%. Either way, your GPS idea is a good one; that's how I checked mine. I think the speedometer was accurate with the stock tires, and with the 31s, it did end up pretty much exactly 10% off. (There's more "bounce" in the speedometer needle than there is difference from 10% off.) Yeah, GPSes are really handy for that. (In fact, with my GPS attachment for my Palm, the program even has a nifty graphical analog-style speedometer screen.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'X' never, _ever_ marks the spot. -- Indiana Jones - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:57:58 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions + JERRARI ARTICLE john said: {- On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Dan Black wrote: {- >-->john said: {- >-->{- not knowing what his sag factor is, and having seen 31's on {- >-->{- a stock FSJ... I think 30's are as big as one should go {- >-->{- with a stock fsj to make it look good. ;) {- >--> {- >-->I disagree. Here are pics of my '74 with the 31x10.5s: {- >--> http://dan.black.org/74Wag/ {- {- exactly what I mean... they look too big... they make {- you notice the rust... 30x9.5's look better, have that {- macho look but not the stuffed saggy look... lift it {- or lose those gumbos... I think it's impossible _not_ to notice the rust on my '74. And the yellow's so bad in the first place... {- >-->So the article is in {- >--> http://dan.black.org/Jerrari/ {- {- dan.black.org is not on line... :( Try again... Sometimes your local name servers may not have it. If it still doesn't work, let me know and maybe I'll look into it (black.org is run by Netidentity, not me), but it just redirects here anyway: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~dsblack/Jerrari/ Hey, how did you get to the 74Wag pics above if dan.black.org wasn't responding? Sounds like a local (to you) problem... Unless maybe our actual server (www.public.iastate.edu) had a hiccup. That really doesn't happen often, though. They even have two machines handling it, so it's unlikely that both will go down at once; if there's a problem, it's most likely a network problem. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe I found the missing link between animal and civilized man. It is us. -- Konrad Lorenz - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:45:55 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 Brazzadog-at-aol.com wrote: >-->>235/75r15s should be about 28.88 inches >-->>30x9.5's are 29.3" >-->>31x10.5's are about 30.3" >-->> >-->>of course there is a little variation btwn makers and models... >-->Ooops. You're right. I mis-remembered everything by about 2". My 235s are >-->nearly 28", loaded. That makes the stock tire 26", unloaded. That's based >-->on my speedo correction factor. I guess I've got my rig so reliable that I not sure how that works, I didn't think that tire diameter when rolling would change that much... not really sure... all I know is I've looked up the specs on various tires and those numbers are usually pretty close. the numbers above are for most bfg/michelin tires, of course some variation exists. >-->I'll take you up on that offer to check my speedo with the GPS. I made it >-->west of Cle Elum a few weeks ago, but that's probably as close as I'll get >-->until the passes re-open in the spring. I consider myself a pretty seasoned >-->driver in winter weather conditions, but there are just too many foolish drivers >-->on the passes for me to put myself in harms way unless road conditions are >-->optimal. Last time I came over Snoqualmie I swore I'd never do it again if >-->the temps were not well above freezing. I don't know if all those fools on the >-->pass were from your side or my side, but it's just not worth it. >-->(snip) not sure either... it seems I see more people crashed on your side of the mountains on ice and snow than I do over here... oh, wait... we don't get much ice and snow... you know, that could be a factor... ;) >-->>Ben, you're lucky you don't have a Kaiser-era FSJ... AMC rescued Jeep >-->officially in 1970. Of course AMC's influence can be seen earlier on... with >--> >-->I've got to disagree with you here. Although my rig does have both AMC and >-->Kaiser logo's on it, it is definitely of pre-AMC influence in every >-->significant way except the engine and grill. While Wagoneer body and glass is pretty >-->much universal, there is a significant divergence between parts interchange >-->beginning with the '73 model year. Earlier FSJs did use AMC engines, but >-->little else was molested until '73, with even greater changes to follow. I've >-->spent alot of time in junkyards looking for Wagoneer parts and I don't bother >-->looking at anything later than '72. Sometimes a '73 fools me until I get a >-->look at the interior, but that's about the limit. I can't find the diagram I made showing Jeep ownership over the years, but Kaiser waned by the mid-60's and AMC officially took it over in '70. I'll find the exact dates. :) >--> >-->>I didn't save the guy's email address either... hopefully he signed up >-->>on the list, worst case scenario he can read it in the digests on the >-->>server. :) I emailed him the link to the digests... so he won't miss anything. ;) >-->Too bad. He needs us : ) >--> >-->Ben Williams >-->'68 Pontiac Catalina >-->'71 Wagoneer >-->'78 Cherokee >-->'78 F250 >-->'79 F350 >-->'88 Bronco >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:49:23 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions I got those dimensions out of the technical manuals at the tire shop... I think those numbers are for Michelin AT, BFG AT and Michelin LTXs... other brands vary a little bit, but they're all within .4 inches of each other... Too many variables for us to measure them in the field... have to go with mfr's specs. so if you measured 27" you probably did. :) john On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Dan Black wrote: >-->john said: >-->{- On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 Brazzadog-at-aol.com wrote: >-->{- >-->I've got 30" 235s on my '71 and the speedo reads 10% low. >-->{- >-->{- 235/75r15s should be about 28.88 inches >-->{- 30x9.5's are 29.3" >-->{- 31x10.5's are about 30.3" >-->{- >-->{- of course there is a little variation btwn makers and models... >-->{- >-->{- next time you're on the green side of the mountains swing by and >-->{- we'll fire up the GPS and verify... ;) >--> >-->I thought I figured the 235/75/15s to be closer to 27", just a bit >-->over... Figured going to the 31" was going to be almost exactly 10%. >-->Either way, your GPS idea is a good one; that's how I checked mine. I >-->think the speedometer was accurate with the stock tires, and with the >-->31s, it did end up pretty much exactly 10% off. (There's more "bounce" >-->in the speedometer needle than there is difference from 10% off.) Yeah, >-->GPSes are really handy for that. (In fact, with my GPS attachment for >-->my Palm, the program even has a nifty graphical analog-style speedometer >-->screen.) >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> 'X' never, _ever_ marks the spot. >--> -- Indiana Jones >-->-------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:01:49 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions + JERRARI ARTICLE no that worked, THAT thing is cool... and NOT what's in the Museum at all. http://www.public.iastate.edu/~dsblack/Jerrari/pics/ On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Dan Black wrote: >-->john said: >-->{- On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Dan Black wrote: >-->{- >-->john said: >-->{- >-->{- not knowing what his sag factor is, and having seen 31's on >-->{- >-->{- a stock FSJ... I think 30's are as big as one should go >-->{- >-->{- with a stock fsj to make it look good. ;) >-->{- >--> >-->{- >-->I disagree. Here are pics of my '74 with the 31x10.5s: >-->{- >--> http://dan.black.org/74Wag/ >-->{- >-->{- exactly what I mean... they look too big... they make >-->{- you notice the rust... 30x9.5's look better, have that >-->{- macho look but not the stuffed saggy look... lift it >-->{- or lose those gumbos... >--> >-->I think it's impossible _not_ to notice the rust on my '74. And the >-->yellow's so bad in the first place... >--> >-->{- >-->So the article is in >-->{- >--> http://dan.black.org/Jerrari/ >-->{- >-->{- dan.black.org is not on line... :( >--> >-->Try again... Sometimes your local name servers may not have it. If it >-->still doesn't work, let me know and maybe I'll look into it (black.org >-->is run by Netidentity, not me), but it just redirects here anyway: >--> http://www.public.iastate.edu/~dsblack/Jerrari/ >--> >-->Hey, how did you get to the 74Wag pics above if dan.black.org wasn't >-->responding? Sounds like a local (to you) problem... Unless maybe our >-->actual server (www.public.iastate.edu) had a hiccup. That really >-->doesn't happen often, though. They even have two machines handling it, >-->so it's unlikely that both will go down at once; if there's a problem, >-->it's most likely a network problem. >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> I believe I found the missing link between animal and civilized man. >--> It is us. >--> -- Konrad Lorenz >-->-------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:12:27 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions It doesn't seem that rolling diameter would change, but it measures different when it's on the car than it does when it's not. My 235 BFG ATs measure just about 27.5" when the Wagoneer is sitting on them. They're probably an inch or more taller, unloaded - but I'm not going to take them off the rig to find out. I was just trying to point out that measured diameter varies with tire load, if you measure vertically like I do. Ben In a message dated 9/27/2004 7:50:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, john-at-wagoneers.com writes: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 Brazzadog-at-aol.com wrote: >>-->>235/75r15s should be about 28.88 inches >>-->>30x9.5's are 29.3" >>-->>31x10.5's are about 30.3" >>-->> >>-->>of course there is a little variation btwn makers and models... >>-->Ooops. You're right. I mis-remembered everything by about 2". My 235s are >>-->nearly 28", loaded. That makes the stock tire 26", unloaded. That's based >>-->on my speedo correction factor. I guess I've got my rig so reliable that I > >not sure how that works, I didn't think that tire diameter when rolling would >change that much... not really sure... all I know is I've looked up the >specs on various tires and those numbers are usually pretty close. the >numbers above are for most bfg/michelin tires, of course some variation exists. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:24:02 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 Brazzadog-at-aol.com wrote: >-->It doesn't seem that rolling diameter would change, but it measures >-->different when it's on the car than it does when it's not. My 235 BFG ATs measure >-->just about 27.5" when the Wagoneer is sitting on them. They're probably an >-->inch or more taller, unloaded - but I'm not going to take them off the rig to >-->find out. I was just trying to point out that measured diameter varies with >-->tire load, if you measure vertically like I do. the tire companies also provide the inches per mile or something like that... when you calculate the ratios and such you end up using pi. measuring the tire itself doesn't always work in real life, best to use the factory specs. john >--> >-->Ben >--> >-->In a message dated 9/27/2004 7:50:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, >-->john-at-wagoneers.com writes: >-->On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 Brazzadog-at-aol.com wrote: >--> >-->>>-->>235/75r15s should be about 28.88 inches >-->>>-->>30x9.5's are 29.3" >-->>>-->>31x10.5's are about 30.3" >-->>>-->> >-->>>-->>of course there is a little variation btwn makers and models... >-->>>-->Ooops. You're right. I mis-remembered everything by about 2". My >-->235s are >-->>>-->nearly 28", loaded. That makes the stock tire 26", unloaded. That's >-->based >-->>>-->on my speedo correction factor. I guess I've got my rig so reliable >-->that I >-->> >-->>not sure how that works, I didn't think that tire diameter when rolling >-->would >-->>change that much... not really sure... all I know is I've looked up the >-->>specs on various tires and those numbers are usually pretty close. the >-->>numbers above are for most bfg/michelin tires, of course some variation >-->exists. >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:32:48 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: mj box On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Jim Blair wrote: >-->It needs bolts to attach the box to the frame, but the springs are just >-->sitting there. ok... let's see if I have the "picture". Let's say that we have four places in your yard... let's call them spaces A, B, C, and D. (perhaps we'll need more... ;) In space A sits an MJ box in space B sits a set of springs (hopefully connected to each other) in space C sits an axle (no springs attached ???) in space D sits the frame. In order to combine these four piles B-C-D must come together, combined with six bolts currently not on site to attach to A. Look in space D and see if there is enough material in front of the place where the box, see space A, sits in order to weld a tongue to. :) BTW, are there round rubber objects associated with the item in space C? :) Just wondering, is this thing green? ;) Perhaps I should plan a visit and scope this thing out before having you drag the pieces up here... I can try to stop by on my way back from Curtis's on Sunday... or perhaps run down earlier in the week... I don't have a shop crane any more so getting that box on the frame up here could be an issue... Might be a better idea for me to assemble it there, find a suitable tongue and "borrow" some electricity to weld it up down there... and tow it out of your yard that way... :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:10:32 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions They are 28.8" when new. That was DOT requirement that all sizes be matched, unlike when numbered or lettered sizes were the norm. They were allowed to round up or down back then, and a tire from the beginning of a btach could be up to 1" different than one from the end of the batch! (remember Firestone 500s? They were caused by some of the other bigger companies manipulating the rubber market so that they got poor quality rubber) john said: {- On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 Brazzadog-at-aol.com wrote: {- >-->I've got 30" 235s on my '71 and the speedo reads 10% low. {- {- 235/75r15s should be about 28.88 inches {- 30x9.5's are 29.3" {- 31x10.5's are about 30.3" {- {- of course there is a little variation btwn makers and models... {- {- next time you're on the green side of the mountains swing by and {- we'll fire up the GPS and verify... ;) I thought I figured the 235/75/15s to be closer to 27", just a bit over... Figured going to the 31" was going to be almost exactly 10%. Either way, your GPS idea is a good one; that's how I checked mine. I think the speedometer was accurate with the stock tires, and with the 31s, it did end up pretty much exactly 10% off. (There's more "bounce" in the speedometer needle than there is difference from 10% off.) Yeah, GPSes are really handy for that. (In fact, with my GPS attachment for my Palm, the program even has a nifty graphical analog-style speedometer screen.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'X' never, _ever_ marks the spot. - -- Indiana Jones - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:11:35 -0400 From: "Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR)" Subject: fsj: 85 PW knocking question I have a question on my 1985 GW, with 360 V8 with a Ford dist. and stock electronic ignition. Whole thing is stock, stock, stock, with 2 BBL carb. Most of the time, it runs great. Timing was set at its [passed] smog check at 10 BTDC, and all seemed well. On a trip across the Sacramento Valley in 100 degree heat, it began to knock a fair amount, and ceased knocking only after I stopped to let it cool off a bit, and retarded the spark a couple times by ear. I had been using 87 octane, but filled up with 91, which did not seem to help. At times it knocked more at part throttle than full. The temp gauge was not above the halfway mark, so it seemed more like the ambient temperature was the problem, not coolant temp. In typical Bay Area 60-80 degree weather it doesn't do this; only when the air temp gets quite hot, at freeway speeds. Never does it at surface-street speeds. Drove it 120 miles to San Jose and back this weekend in 70 degree weather, and it was fine. In this kind of weather the temp gauge gets slightly into the bottom of the green. I might need a thermostat, but I wouldn't think that's the cause of this problem. Anyone have a similar condition, or an idea about the cause? I'm wondering if something in the dist. or spark control is responding to the ambient temp and advancing somehow, rather than regular detonation caused by low octane, etc. Or is it carb-related, running lean at part throttle? Or do I need 104 octane booster? Any help appreciated. Thanks a lot. Andrew Watry Berkeley, CA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:14:59 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 85 PW knocking question the amc 360 has issues with "pinging"... check your egr, timing (done)... also make sure all the vacuum lines are good, just replace 'em... tighten the carb base, tighten the intake manifold, tighten the exahust manifold bolts as well. check plug gap... if this thing runs lean it'll ping... read the spark plugs... they should be a light tan color... very common problem, make sure all breathers and emission stuff is in place... vacuum issue or egr more than likely... john On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) wrote: >-->I have a question on my 1985 GW, with 360 V8 with a Ford dist. and stock >-->electronic ignition. Whole thing is stock, stock, stock, with 2 BBL carb. >-->Most of the time, it runs great. Timing was set at its [passed] smog check >-->at 10 BTDC, and all seemed well. On a trip across the Sacramento Valley in >-->100 degree heat, it began to knock a fair amount, and ceased knocking only >-->after I stopped to let it cool off a bit, and retarded the spark a couple >-->times by ear. I had been using 87 octane, but filled up with 91, which did >-->not seem to help. At times it knocked more at part throttle than full. The >-->temp gauge was not above the halfway mark, so it seemed more like the >-->ambient temperature was the problem, not coolant temp. In typical Bay Area >-->60-80 degree weather it doesn't do this; only when the air temp gets quite >-->hot, at freeway speeds. Never does it at surface-street speeds. Drove it >-->120 miles to San Jose and back this weekend in 70 degree weather, and it was >-->fine. In this kind of weather the temp gauge gets slightly into the bottom >-->of the green. I might need a thermostat, but I wouldn't think that's the >-->cause of this problem. >--> >-->Anyone have a similar condition, or an idea about the cause? I'm wondering >-->if something in the dist. or spark control is responding to the ambient temp >-->and advancing somehow, rather than regular detonation caused by low octane, >-->etc. Or is it carb-related, running lean at part throttle? Or do I need >-->104 octane booster? Any help appreciated. Thanks a lot. >--> >-->Andrew Watry >-->Berkeley, CA >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2260 **************************