From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Sep 27 12:45:18 2004 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, September 27 2004 Volume 01 : Number 2261 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: 85 PW knocking question Re: fsj: 85 PW knocking question fsj: pinging GW followup fsj: RE: 85 PW knocking question Re: fsj: pinging GW followup RE: fsj: pinging GW followup Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions RE: fsj: pinging GW followup FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:33:03 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: 85 PW knocking question "Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR)" said: {- I have a question on my 1985 GW, with 360 V8 with a Ford dist. and stock {- electronic ignition. Whole thing is stock, stock, stock, with 2 BBL carb. {- Most of the time, it runs great. Timing was set at its [passed] smog check {- at 10 BTDC, and all seemed well. On a trip across the Sacramento Valley in {- 100 degree heat, it began to knock a fair amount, and ceased knocking only {- after I stopped to let it cool off a bit, and retarded the spark a couple {- times by ear. I had been using 87 octane, but filled up with 91, which did {- not seem to help. At times it knocked more at part throttle than full. The {- temp gauge was not above the halfway mark, so it seemed more like the {- ambient temperature was the problem, not coolant temp. In typical Bay Area {- 60-80 degree weather it doesn't do this; only when the air temp gets quite {- hot, at freeway speeds. Never does it at surface-street speeds. Drove it {- 120 miles to San Jose and back this weekend in 70 degree weather, and it was {- fine. In this kind of weather the temp gauge gets slightly into the bottom {- of the green. I might need a thermostat, but I wouldn't think that's the {- cause of this problem. {- {- Anyone have a similar condition, or an idea about the cause? I'm wondering {- if something in the dist. or spark control is responding to the ambient temp {- and advancing somehow, rather than regular detonation caused by low octane, {- etc. Or is it carb-related, running lean at part throttle? Or do I need {- 104 octane booster? Any help appreciated. Thanks a lot. Sure the gauge is accurate? It's unlikely that it would look like it was working consistently and be very far off, but it's possible. The only things I can think of would probably still result in a high temperature reading on the gauge... I was thinking maybe the coolant mixture wasn't right (not enough coolant in the mix? , radiator not full? , overflow tube plugged?). Or water pump not working right. Or the radiator tubes have enough gunk that the coolant may be flowing through, but not actually distributing enough heat via contact with the metal -- this happened to me in an '84 XJ once, and if a shop checks the radiator, it will still show the water flowing through fine, but they have no way to check actual heat dissipation. But all of those would probably result in being able to see it overheating on the gauge. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he'll be a mile away... and barefoot. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:49:20 EDT From: Smokey99908-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: 85 PW knocking question With all those variables to factor in, its quite the conundrum. Vacume and EGR mentioned by John. I'm wondering if the intake manifold is heating up beyond what the spacer can accomadate, making the fuel mix too lean. but not thought completely through... Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR)" said: {- I have a question on my 1985 GW, with 360 V8 with a Ford dist. and stock {- electronic ignition. Whole thing is stock, stock, stock, with 2 BBL carb. {- Most of the time, it runs great. Timing was set at its [passed] smog check {- at 10 BTDC, and all seemed well. On a trip across the Sacramento Valley in {- 100 degree heat, it began to knock a fair amount, and ceased knocking only {- after I stopped to let it cool off a bit, and retarded the spark a couple {- times by ear. I had been using 87 octane, but filled up with 91, which did {- not seem to help. At times it knocked more at part throttle than full. The {- temp gauge was not above the halfway mark, so it seemed more like the {- ambient temperature was the problem, not coolant temp. In typical Bay Area {- 60-80 degree weather it doesn't do this; only when the air temp gets quite {- hot, at freeway speeds. Never does it at surface-street speeds. Drove it {- 120 miles to San Jose and back this weekend in 70 degree weather, and it was {- fine. In this kind of weather the temp gauge gets slightly into the bottom {- of the green. I might need a thermostat, but I wouldn't think that's the {- cause of this problem. {- {- Anyone have a similar condition, or an idea about the cause? I'm wondering {- if something in the dist. or spark control is responding to the ambient temp {- and advancing somehow, rather than regular detonation caused by low octane, {- etc. Or is it carb-related, running lean at part throttle? Or do I need {- 104 octane booster? Any help appreciated. Thanks a lot. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:51:43 -0400 From: "Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR)" Subject: fsj: pinging GW followup My GW does not appear to be overheating at all. It has a brand new radiator, good hoses, new temp sending unit, etc., though I don't know the condition of the WP and thermostat, or what might be in the block. 50/50 of antifreeze and water. As I mentioned, it did pass its CA smog check with very low numbers (better than my wife's 97 BMW), so I'd assume the EGR, air pump, etc., are all working OK. It's all intact and hooked up. No exhaust leaks or intake leaks that I can hear, and it idles smoothly and starts first turn every time. But I'll tighten everything up, check the plugs, and change the vacuum lines, which are intact but pretty sad looking. Can you richen the mixture much, or at all? Probably not on the main circuit without changing jets, but I wonder if the richening the idle circuit a bit would help? Maybe it's got a stop on the screw? Only til the next smog check though. Plus I'd be getting even worse mileage... When the pinging came on in hot weather, it was nasty sounding. Is it likely to be destructive pretty quickly, or has the GW probably been pinging for years under previous owners' ignorance? I've only owned it a couple months, and the last guy used it for towing. Thanks all Andrew Watry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:57:12 -0400 From: "Shorty" Subject: fsj: RE: 85 PW knocking question I had a similar problem on my 86 GW. After 4 to 5 years of putting up with this, I performed I.S. 8E, Informations Service notice that is listed in my manual.. This procedure is for the Power Valve Vacuum Source, to reduce the mild surge or engine speed variation when driving. It solved the engine pinging even with regular gas, however, when the engine is hot, the starter has a hard time to turn the engine over unless you let the engine cool or you disconnect the ignition coil wire for one or two revolutions. Not much help I am afraid. But this is my two cent worth. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 2:12 PM To: 'fsj-at-digest.net' Subject: fsj: 85 PW knocking question I have a question on my 1985 GW, with 360 V8 with a Ford dist. and stock electronic ignition. Whole thing is stock, stock, stock, with 2 BBL carb. Most of the time, it runs great. Timing was set at its [passed] smog check at 10 BTDC, and all seemed well. On a trip across the Sacramento Valley in 100 degree heat, it began to knock a fair amount, and ceased knocking only after I stopped to let it cool off a bit, and retarded the spark a couple times by ear. I had been using 87 octane, but filled up with 91, which did not seem to help. At times it knocked more at part throttle than full. The temp gauge was not above the halfway mark, so it seemed more like the ambient temperature was the problem, not coolant temp. In typical Bay Area 60-80 degree weather it doesn't do this; only when the air temp gets quite hot, at freeway speeds. Never does it at surface-street speeds. Drove it 120 miles to San Jose and back this weekend in 70 degree weather, and it was fine. In this kind of weather the temp gauge gets slightly into the bottom of the green. I might need a thermostat, but I wouldn't think that's the cause of this problem. Anyone have a similar condition, or an idea about the cause? I'm wondering if something in the dist. or spark control is responding to the ambient temp and advancing somehow, rather than regular detonation caused by low octane, etc. Or is it carb-related, running lean at part throttle? Or do I need 104 octane booster? Any help appreciated. Thanks a lot. Andrew Watry Berkeley, CA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:18:10 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: pinging GW followup On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) wrote: >-->My GW does not appear to be overheating at all. It has a brand new radiator, >-->good hoses, new temp sending unit, etc., though I don't know the condition >-->of the WP and thermostat, or what might be in the block. 50/50 of >-->antifreeze and water. As I mentioned, it did pass its CA smog check with >-->very low numbers (better than my wife's 97 BMW), so I'd assume the EGR, air >-->pump, etc., are all working OK. It's all intact and hooked up. No exhaust >-->leaks or intake leaks that I can hear, and it idles smoothly and starts >-->first turn every time. But I'll tighten everything up, check the plugs, and >-->change the vacuum lines, which are intact but pretty sad looking. the sad looking part is a clue... if you get any leaks things won't work right... hope .29 worth of vacuum line fixes the problems. :) >-->Can you richen the mixture much, or at all? Probably not on the main circuit >-->without changing jets, but I wonder if the richening the idle circuit a bit >-->would help? Maybe it's got a stop on the screw? Only til the next smog >-->check though. Plus I'd be getting even worse mileage... not much adjustments on those carbs... I prefer the edelbrock performer manifold with the 1406... actually I prefer fuel injection... ;) >-->When the pinging came on in hot weather, it was nasty sounding. Is it >-->likely to be destructive pretty quickly, or has the GW probably been pinging >-->for years under previous owners' ignorance? I've only owned it a couple >-->months, and the last guy used it for towing. it's probably pinged all it's life... >--> >-->Thanks all >-->Andrew Watry john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:34:02 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: pinging GW followup On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) wrote: >-->thanks very much. no problem, good luck... oh, a couple other tricks... there were some issues with vapor lock that might help reduce ping as well, rerouting the coolant lines away from the carb/manifold, heater hose mainly... other options might be a slightly cooler tstat, synthetic oil, cooler spark plug range, retarded timing... and of course the ultimate solution... swap in a modern fuel injection engine... ;) john >--> >-->-----Original Message----- >-->From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] >-->Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 12:26 PM >-->To: Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) >-->Subject: RE: fsj: pinging GW followup >--> >--> >-->On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) wrote: >--> >-->>-->I'm in Calif so I can't go monkeying with the carb and intake unless >-->they're >-->>-->CARB certified to replace stock, if I want to continue to drive it past >-->its >-->>-->next smog check. >--> >-->understand... replace your vacuum lines with new... I used to make this >-->an annual event. >--> >-->>--> >-->>-->So the pinging doesn't hurt anything drastic? This Jeep seems to run >-->fine... >--> >-->it's not healthy in the extreme... slight pinging is annoying, more severe >-->pinging = holes in pistons... too lean = too hot... >--> >-->no ping is better... search the digests... we covered this in detail >-->years ago... I suspect I have something in the >-->http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech pages >-->on this... >--> >-->john >--> >-->>--> >-->>-->Andrew >-->>--> >-->>-->-----Original Message----- >-->>-->From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] >-->>-->Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 12:18 PM >-->>-->To: Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) >-->>-->Cc: 'fsj-at-digest.net' >-->>-->Subject: Re: fsj: pinging GW followup >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>-->On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) wrote: >-->>--> >-->>-->>-->My GW does not appear to be overheating at all. It has a brand new >-->>-->radiator, >-->>-->>-->good hoses, new temp sending unit, etc., though I don't know the >-->>-->condition >-->>-->>-->of the WP and thermostat, or what might be in the block. 50/50 of >-->>-->>-->antifreeze and water. As I mentioned, it did pass its CA smog check >-->>-->with >-->>-->>-->very low numbers (better than my wife's 97 BMW), so I'd assume the >-->EGR, >-->>-->air >-->>-->>-->pump, etc., are all working OK. It's all intact and hooked up. No >-->>-->exhaust >-->>-->>-->leaks or intake leaks that I can hear, and it idles smoothly and >-->starts >-->>-->>-->first turn every time. But I'll tighten everything up, check the >-->plugs, >-->>-->and >-->>-->>-->change the vacuum lines, which are intact but pretty sad looking. >-->>--> >-->>-->the sad looking part is a clue... if you get any leaks things won't >-->>-->work right... hope .29 worth of vacuum line fixes the problems. :) >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>-->>-->Can you richen the mixture much, or at all? Probably not on the main >-->>-->circuit >-->>-->>-->without changing jets, but I wonder if the richening the idle >-->circuit a >-->>-->bit >-->>-->>-->would help? Maybe it's got a stop on the screw? Only til the next >-->smog >-->>-->>-->check though. Plus I'd be getting even worse mileage... >-->>--> >-->>-->not much adjustments on those carbs... I prefer the edelbrock performer >-->>-->manifold with the 1406... actually I prefer fuel injection... ;) >-->>--> >-->>-->>-->When the pinging came on in hot weather, it was nasty sounding. Is >-->it >-->>-->>-->likely to be destructive pretty quickly, or has the GW probably been >-->>-->pinging >-->>-->>-->for years under previous owners' ignorance? I've only owned it a >-->couple >-->>-->>-->months, and the last guy used it for towing. >-->>--> >-->>-->it's probably pinged all it's life... >-->>--> >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->Thanks all >-->>-->>-->Andrew Watry >-->>--> >-->>-->john >-->>--> >-->>--> ---- >-->>--> >-->>-->------------------------------------------------------------------------ >-->- >-->>--> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >-->>--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >-->>-->------------------------------------------------------------------------ >-->- >-->>--> >--> >--> ---- >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:35:15 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 67 Wagoneer Questions so a 235/75r15 should be 28.8 inches when new? is there a source on line that mandates the official size for each tire size? that would be handy to have... I thought it varied a bit from mfr to mfr... john On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Jim Blair wrote: >-->They are 28.8" when new. That was DOT requirement that all sizes be matched, >-->unlike when numbered or lettered sizes were the norm. They were allowed to >-->round up or down back then, and a tire from the beginning of a btach could >-->be up to 1" different than one from the end of the batch! (remember >-->Firestone 500s? They were caused by some of the other bigger companies >-->manipulating the rubber market so that they got poor quality rubber) >--> >--> >-->john said: >-->{- On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 Brazzadog-at-aol.com wrote: >-->{- >-->I've got 30" 235s on my '71 and the speedo reads 10% low. >-->{- >-->{- 235/75r15s should be about 28.88 inches >-->{- 30x9.5's are 29.3" >-->{- 31x10.5's are about 30.3" >-->{- >-->{- of course there is a little variation btwn makers and models... >-->{- >-->{- next time you're on the green side of the mountains swing by and >-->{- we'll fire up the GPS and verify... ;) >--> >-->I thought I figured the 235/75/15s to be closer to 27", just a bit >-->over... Figured going to the 31" was going to be almost exactly 10%. >-->Either way, your GPS idea is a good one; that's how I checked mine. I >-->think the speedometer was accurate with the stock tires, and with the >-->31s, it did end up pretty much exactly 10% off. (There's more "bounce" >-->in the speedometer needle than there is difference from 10% off.) Yeah, >-->GPSes are really handy for that. (In fact, with my GPS attachment for >-->my Palm, the program even has a nifty graphical analog-style speedometer >-->screen.) >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> 'X' never, _ever_ marks the spot. >-->-- Indiana Jones >-->-------------- Dan Black ------------------------- >-->dan-at-black.org -------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:38:56 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: pinging GW followup On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) wrote: >-->I have the owner's manual and a Chilton's manual for standard plugs, but do >-->you have a recommendation for a cooler one that works well? no info... check with NAPA... they'll have info on your options. Stay away from gimick plugs, forked tongue, +4, splitwires, etc... a good mechanic friend recommends NGK. john >--> >-->-----Original Message----- >-->From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] >-->Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 12:34 PM >-->To: Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) >-->Cc: full size jeep list >-->Subject: RE: fsj: pinging GW followup >--> >--> >-->On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) wrote: >--> >-->>-->thanks very much. >--> >-->no problem, good luck... >--> >-->oh, a couple other tricks... there were some issues >-->with vapor lock that might help reduce ping as well, >-->rerouting the coolant lines away from the carb/manifold, >-->heater hose mainly... >--> >-->other options might be a slightly cooler tstat, >-->synthetic oil, cooler spark plug range, retarded timing... >--> >-->and of course the ultimate solution... swap in a modern >-->fuel injection engine... ;) >--> >-->john >--> >-->>--> >-->>-->-----Original Message----- >-->>-->From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] >-->>-->Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 12:26 PM >-->>-->To: Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) >-->>-->Subject: RE: fsj: pinging GW followup >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>-->On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) wrote: >-->>--> >-->>-->>-->I'm in Calif so I can't go monkeying with the carb and intake unless >-->>-->they're >-->>-->>-->CARB certified to replace stock, if I want to continue to drive it >-->past >-->>-->its >-->>-->>-->next smog check. >-->>--> >-->>-->understand... replace your vacuum lines with new... I used to make this >-->>-->an annual event. >-->>--> >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->So the pinging doesn't hurt anything drastic? This Jeep seems to run >-->>-->fine... >-->>--> >-->>-->it's not healthy in the extreme... slight pinging is annoying, more >-->severe >-->>-->pinging = holes in pistons... too lean = too hot... >-->>--> >-->>-->no ping is better... search the digests... we covered this in detail >-->>-->years ago... I suspect I have something in the >-->>-->http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech pages >-->>-->on this... >-->>--> >-->>-->john >-->>--> >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->Andrew >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->-----Original Message----- >-->>-->>-->From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com] >-->>-->>-->Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 12:18 PM >-->>-->>-->To: Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) >-->>-->>-->Cc: 'fsj-at-digest.net' >-->>-->>-->Subject: Re: fsj: pinging GW followup >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) wrote: >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->>-->My GW does not appear to be overheating at all. It has a brand >-->new >-->>-->>-->radiator, >-->>-->>-->>-->good hoses, new temp sending unit, etc., though I don't know the >-->>-->>-->condition >-->>-->>-->>-->of the WP and thermostat, or what might be in the block. 50/50 >-->of >-->>-->>-->>-->antifreeze and water. As I mentioned, it did pass its CA smog >-->check >-->>-->>-->with >-->>-->>-->>-->very low numbers (better than my wife's 97 BMW), so I'd assume >-->the >-->>-->EGR, >-->>-->>-->air >-->>-->>-->>-->pump, etc., are all working OK. It's all intact and hooked up. >-->No >-->>-->>-->exhaust >-->>-->>-->>-->leaks or intake leaks that I can hear, and it idles smoothly and >-->>-->starts >-->>-->>-->>-->first turn every time. But I'll tighten everything up, check >-->the >-->>-->plugs, >-->>-->>-->and >-->>-->>-->>-->change the vacuum lines, which are intact but pretty sad >-->looking. >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->the sad looking part is a clue... if you get any leaks things won't >-->>-->>-->work right... hope .29 worth of vacuum line fixes the problems. :) >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->>-->Can you richen the mixture much, or at all? Probably not on the >-->main >-->>-->>-->circuit >-->>-->>-->>-->without changing jets, but I wonder if the richening the idle >-->>-->circuit a >-->>-->>-->bit >-->>-->>-->>-->would help? Maybe it's got a stop on the screw? Only til the >-->next >-->>-->smog >-->>-->>-->>-->check though. Plus I'd be getting even worse mileage... >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->not much adjustments on those carbs... I prefer the edelbrock >-->performer >-->>-->>-->manifold with the 1406... actually I prefer fuel injection... ;) >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->>-->When the pinging came on in hot weather, it was nasty sounding. >-->Is >-->>-->it >-->>-->>-->>-->likely to be destructive pretty quickly, or has the GW probably >-->been >-->>-->>-->pinging >-->>-->>-->>-->for years under previous owners' ignorance? I've only owned it >-->a >-->>-->couple >-->>-->>-->>-->months, and the last guy used it for towing. >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->it's probably pinged all it's life... >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->>-->Thanks all >-->>-->>-->>-->Andrew Watry >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->john >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>--> ---- >-->>-->>--> >-->>-->>-->-------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->---- >-->>-->- >-->>-->>--> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >-->>-->>--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >-->>-->>-->-------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->---- >-->>-->- >-->>-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>--> ---- >-->>--> >-->>-->------------------------------------------------------------------------ >-->- >-->>--> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >-->>--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >-->>-->------------------------------------------------------------------------ >-->- >-->>--> >--> >--> ---- >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2261 **************************