From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Oct 27 11:24:31 2004 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, October 27 2004 Volume 01 : Number 2288 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: Re: [db] more adventures Re: fsj: Re: [db] more adventures Re: fsj: Engine removal - 89 GW - done deal, now we're looking f o r a block fsj: Grand Cherokee Test Drive Re: fsj: more adventures Re: fsj: Grand Cherokee Test Drive Re: fsj: Grand Cherokee Test Drive Re: [WJ-Grand] Re: fsj: Grand Cherokee Test Drive FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:20:06 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: [db] more adventures A: There is supposed to be a 100,000 mile EPA requirement on anything regarding emissions systems on new cars as of 2003 On Tue, Oct 26, 2004 at 03:44:53PM -0700, john wrote: > had a power failure at work today, so we got sent home early to work > remotely... so on the way I stopped at the Jeep dealer and test drove > the new WK and the KJ. :) Drove the 5.7L V8 Magnum in the GC, and > a 4 cyl with a 5spd in the KJ. Interesting. I didn't know a manual was an option in a KJ. > The V8 in the GC is super smooth, very quick, but not radical. I couldn't > really tell how much faster it was than a 4.7L V8. Both engines are > quite smooth and responsive. Supposedly the 5.7L has some way of turning > off some of the cylinders... I haven't read anything about it and the > sales > lady wasn't exactly a technical wizard. The EPA mileage was very close > to the 4.7L, if not the same 14/19. The Hemi got some logic (from Ma Benz) for disabling a cylinder or two or whatever in order to reduce fuel consumption. Unlike the caddy 6-8-4, it seems to work... for now. Time will tell, though the german v12s using this technology seem mostly reliable. Forget checkbooks if they break, get a second on the house :-/ > The KJ was a 2004, bottom of the line unit. I wanted to see how the 2.4L > I-4 was. It would not handle an automatic... I understand why it's not > an option. :) I can also see why the 3.7L V6 seems anemic. The KJ > is heavier than the WJ by about 50lbs from what I've read. The KJ's biggest problem is that it is overbuilt. Someone at Jeep decided to make a tin-can rav4 that could wheel. So, like the XJ, they built the bejeezus out of the unibody, and it truly weighs about 600 lbs more than it needs to. Interestingly enough, it's supposed to be literally a 3-4 hour job to swap a 4.7L v8 into a KJ. Me, I'd prefer a 4.0, but the nose is too short on the KJ for an inline six, and it would probably protrude into the passenger compartment too much. > The new GC is quieter and smoother than the WJ, and I also noticed > that it incorporated a few of the old SJ Wagoneer features... fuel > tank under the body inside the frame on the driver's side and the > spare under the back bed. Interesting. How hard did it look to swap a dana 30 from an XJ/WJ/ZJ, or even a bronco d44? That would solve it's wheelin problems :) > I'm starting to like the KJ. The 2005 reworked the grille and it > doesn't have a toon town look any more, it's more like an old flat > fender Jeep. The ride and handling and feel of the KJ is nimble, > very much like an XJ. There was plenty of room to improve, though smaller engines as options while adding more safety equipment (weight) is probably not a good way to improve. > The only problem I can see with getting a KJ Diesel is that there > are 5,800 Jeep dealerships... and word is only 5,000 Diesels will > be available. :( That's not going to be a viable test of small SUVs with diesels then - it sounds like they're either not serious about trying, or the EPA is all over them for soot and NOx. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:14:52 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: [db] more adventures On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Kevin Pekarek wrote: >-->On Tue, Oct 26, 2004 at 03:44:53PM -0700, john wrote: >-->> a 4 cyl with a 5spd in the KJ. >--> >-->Interesting. I didn't know a manual was an option in a KJ. with the 2.4L that's all you can get... the '05 has a 6 speed manual or the 4 speed auto with the V6. the KJ didn't bother my back too much, but my left leg was starting to let me know it wasn't happy being near a clutch again... hadn't felt that pain since the surgery about 12 years ago. :) I better stick to autos... sure would have kept my '85 XJ with the 2.1L TD had it had an auto... I had to give up the stick. :( My 5th lumbar is not happy with clutch operation. :( >-->> off some of the cylinders... I haven't read anything about it and the sales >-->> lady wasn't exactly a technical wizard. The EPA mileage was very close >-->> to the 4.7L, if not the same 14/19. >--> >-->The Hemi got some logic (from Ma Benz) for disabling a cylinder or two >-->or whatever in order to reduce fuel consumption. Unlike the caddy 6-8-4, >-->it seems to work... for now. Time will tell, though the german v12s using >-->this technology seem mostly reliable. Forget checkbooks if they break, >-->get a second on the house :-/ yeah, that's what I was thinking too... :) I dislike that they hide the engine under a big plastic shroud... can't see all the goodies. :) >-->> The KJ was a 2004, bottom of the line unit. I wanted to see how the 2.4L >-->> I-4 was. It would not handle an automatic... I understand why it's not >-->> an option. :) I can also see why the 3.7L V6 seems anemic. The KJ >-->> is heavier than the WJ by about 50lbs from what I've read. >--> >-->The KJ's biggest problem is that it is overbuilt. Someone at Jeep decided >-->to make a tin-can rav4 that could wheel. So, like the XJ, they built the >-->bejeezus out of the unibody, and it truly weighs about 600 lbs more than it >-->needs to. it has a nice feel to it though... I actually liked the way this one felt. The bottom of the line unit didn't ride as nice as the WJ, or so it seemed... the other one I test drove a few years ago rode better... This will take a few more prolonged test drives before I plop down any serious cash... :) Not sure why I didn't care for the first one I drove, guess it's because I was spoiled with the '99 WJ with the 4.7L. But this thing had good visibility (for a modern vehicle) and just felt nimble... like an XJ, but with a nicer, quieter ride. I think I may be hooked. It's just a question of whether I'm going to be willing to spend the money... being as cheap as I am I doubt it. ;) If I sold every vehicle I owned my wife would probably let me do it... but I fear that Curtis is not going to let me sell Superdawg... :) so I'm between a rock and a hard spot... wedged between my wife and a friend with my Jeep collection. ;) >-->Interestingly enough, it's supposed to be literally a 3-4 hour job to swap >-->a 4.7L v8 into a KJ. Me, I'd prefer a 4.0, but the nose is too short on >-->the KJ for an inline six, and it would probably protrude into the >-->passenger compartment too much. there ain't no way you're parking a 4.0L under that KJ hood... not without redoing the rad support... but I'll take a look... with a tape measure. :) The 3.7L V6 is totally lost in the WJ. I've got pictures, going to write an article for FSJ magazine that will come out in the spring issue. >-->> The new GC is quieter and smoother than the WJ, and I also noticed >-->> that it incorporated a few of the old SJ Wagoneer features... fuel >-->> tank under the body inside the frame on the driver's side and the >-->> spare under the back bed. >--> >-->Interesting. How hard did it look to swap a dana 30 from an XJ/WJ/ZJ, >-->or even a bronco d44? That would solve it's wheelin problems :) not a chance, wait till you see the pictures of underneath... >-->> I'm starting to like the KJ. The 2005 reworked the grille and it >-->> doesn't have a toon town look any more, it's more like an old flat >-->> fender Jeep. The ride and handling and feel of the KJ is nimble, >-->> very much like an XJ. >--> >-->There was plenty of room to improve, though smaller engines as options >-->while adding more safety equipment (weight) is probably not a good way >-->to improve. I think the Diesel will push it around just fine... if I can get one. :( >--> >-->> The only problem I can see with getting a KJ Diesel is that there >-->> are 5,800 Jeep dealerships... and word is only 5,000 Diesels will >-->> be available. :( >--> >-->That's not going to be a viable test of small SUVs with diesels then - >-->it sounds like they're either not serious about trying, or the EPA is >-->all over them for soot and NOx. Hey, how many '91 300Ds do you see around? The Diesel market was damaged by GM in the early '80s and the vast and incomprehensible ignorance of the american population. I'm happy with my '91 300D, but it sure would be nice to have just ONE vehicle. I don't dare tow my trailer with my Benz... Hooked up the '75 J10 hydraulic dump trailer to the '83 Jimmy with the 6.2L tonight... it didn't seem real happy pulling that thing either... I either have to create a custom lightweight frame for that trailer or get a bigger truck... or sell the trailer and get a commercial dump trailer, they're almost 1,000lbs lighter than mine... seems that curtis way overbuilt this trailer... works nice, but I miss having a lightweight trailer to haul stuff around with... john >--> >-->K >--> >-->-- >-->Kevin Pekarek >-->Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and >-->Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:35:51 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: Engine removal - 89 GW - done deal, now we're looking f o r a block A: Depends what the 258 came out of. The Jeep ones use TH400 till '79, then Mopar automatics after that, but the AMC cars went to Mopar automatic in '72. If you use the V8 converter, you'll need to take the V8 flexplate and have it zero balanced. (costs about $40 or so) If you want to run the EFI though, you need a newer 4.0L flexplate from a TJ with 3 speed automatic (depending which EFI you plan to run. This won't work with Renix. You'd have to get the front mounted balancer CPS kit) the 258 should bolt up to the 727, you'll need a different flexplate and probably torque converter. a 4.0L head should bolt on... it gets a little complicated doing that... timing issues, the need for a crank position sensor, etc... You could just get the entire XJ running gear... other than the slip yoke rear driveshaft it should be pretty close... john Keith, Michael S wrote: > The wiring I could do. I'd just need to have a factory manual for the 96 > Wrangler. However, having to do a tranny swap would probably blow the > budget. Not sure what a Weber setup would cost, but it looks like the > Howell Engineering setup (my preference) would blow the budget as > well...unless I were lucky enough to find a used one. > > Being that you're suggesting a 258, does that mean it will bolt up to the > 727 trans? If so, what about a 258 block with a 4.0 head, fuel system, > harness, ECU, etc? > > Michael Keith > Houston, TX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:32:07 -0400 From: Chuck Balog Subject: fsj: Grand Cherokee Test Drive If anyone has DirecTV, they're running a continuous loop of all the new GC ads and a Speed TV review of the vehicle. It's 100% advertizing, but fun to watch. They take one of the Limiteds down to Baja. My personal favorite quote was as they were driving through the shopping area of La Jolla, the driver said, "The new Jeep Grand Cherokee was designed to be just as at home in high-end shopping areas as it is offroad." I guess so. Priced out the Limited with the Hemi, side air bags, and 4x4 popular equipment group (skid plates, tow hooks, etc.) and the MSRP came to $39K. That's a lot for an offroad version of the Dodge Magnum..... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:43:59 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: more adventures john said: {- I'm starting to like the KJ. The 2005 reworked the grille and it {- doesn't have a toon town look any more, it's more like an old flat {- fender Jeep. John obviously has a love-hate relationship with the KJ. He wants one, but he doesn't want to admit that he wants one. I was wondering what grille changes he meant, so I looked around, and I put some pics in http://129.186.79.84/KJ/ . (NOT a permanent location.) All the "enlarge..." pics are 2005s from Jeep's site. The rest were taken from a message board and are prior years. First, the rounded grille and the bumper/fender area below the headlights has changed, though I can't confirm if that's new in 2005 or if it even happened before. Compare enlarge8 and enlarge9 with the three non-enlarge pics. Second, and I noticed this one on my own in real life, you can now get a chrome grille (enlarge9, 11). This is the limited, though I'm not sure the limited _has_ to have chrome -- see enlarge8 (I think it's chrome, but only 85% positive). It's still the rounded grille, though. Third, and this is probably what John was talking about, the Renegade has a _different_ grille and hood. The grille is more rectangular (closer to trapezoidal, actually), and the hood is flatter; actually goes down on the sides instead of up to curve around the headlights. (The Renegade also seems to have beefier-looking fender flares with the bolted look.) See enlarge1, 2, 3, 5. Anybody got a pre-2005 KJ that could go to a dealer, park next to a 2005 Renegade (and, if possible, a limited and sport) and get pictures to have a clear-cut comparison? It's not hard to see, but would be interesting to have them all in one real-world picture. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is not Mrs. Janek! -- Dr. Elena Rhyzkov - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:46:29 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Grand Cherokee Test Drive On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Chuck Balog wrote: >-->If anyone has DirecTV, they're running a continuous loop of all the >-->new GC ads and a Speed TV review of the vehicle. It's 100% >-->advertizing, but fun to watch. They take one of the Limiteds down to >-->Baja. My personal favorite quote was as they were driving through the >-->shopping area of La Jolla, the driver said, "The new Jeep Grand >-->Cherokee was designed to be just as at home in high-end shopping areas >-->as it is offroad." >--> >-->I guess so. Priced out the Limited with the Hemi, side air bags, and >-->4x4 popular equipment group (skid plates, tow hooks, etc.) and the >-->MSRP came to $39K. That's a lot for an offroad version of the Dodge >-->Magnum..... ONLY $39K? most of the GC's I've seen on the lot have stickers well into the $40's... I wonder if they have anything like this on comcast cable... :) Yes, the offroad version of the Dodge Magnum, with just a wee bit more headroom. :) It's also interesting to note that the Jeep Wagoneer was expensive in it's market, but back then it was a true leader in it's area. When the SJ model Full Size Jeep came out in November 1962 it was in a class all it's own. It was years later before the big three fielded anything close to it. Jeep has been taken over by car guys. Thankfully it's still a Jeep but really for how long... It's also amusing to me to see some of the SJ features added back in, like positioning of the fuel tank and the spare tire... although the spare tire location isn't exactly a selling point... the reason in the xj they moved it inside. Not sure what they were thinking. I was quite happy with my spare inside my Grand Cherokee. They certainly didn't add any room inside by doing that. The GC had an annoying little wobble on the road, but when pressed it responded as it should. The wobble occurred when moving the wheel a bit, but much more stable and solid feeling than say an Explorer or Blazer. john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:20:18 -0400 From: Chuck Balog Subject: Re: fsj: Grand Cherokee Test Drive Well, the nav package was $1200, the DVD player (infotainment package) was $1200, chrome wheels were $800, and the offroad package with rock rails, roof rack, etc was an extra $1200, so I could see those items being added to "top of the line" configurations. With all that stuff, it specs out at an MSRP of $43.4K. You could strip and rebuild 3 or 4 SJs for that. 1 for around town, one for offroad, one J-10, and one snow plow.... On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:46:29 -0700 (PDT), john wrote: > On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Chuck Balog wrote: > > >-->If anyone has DirecTV, they're running a continuous loop of all the > >-->new GC ads and a Speed TV review of the vehicle. It's 100% > >-->advertizing, but fun to watch. They take one of the Limiteds down to > >-->Baja. My personal favorite quote was as they were driving through the > >-->shopping area of La Jolla, the driver said, "The new Jeep Grand > >-->Cherokee was designed to be just as at home in high-end shopping areas > >-->as it is offroad." > >--> > >-->I guess so. Priced out the Limited with the Hemi, side air bags, and > >-->4x4 popular equipment group (skid plates, tow hooks, etc.) and the > >-->MSRP came to $39K. That's a lot for an offroad version of the Dodge > >-->Magnum..... > > ONLY $39K? most of the GC's I've seen on the lot have stickers well > into the $40's... I wonder if they have anything like this on comcast > cable... :) > > Yes, the offroad version of the Dodge Magnum, with just a wee bit more > headroom. :) > > It's also interesting to note that the Jeep Wagoneer was expensive in > it's market, but back then it was a true leader in it's area. When > the SJ model Full Size Jeep came out in November 1962 it was in a class > all it's own. It was years later before the big three fielded anything > close to it. Jeep has been taken over by car guys. Thankfully it's > still a Jeep but really for how long... > > It's also amusing to me to see some of the SJ features added back in, > like positioning of the fuel tank and the spare tire... although the > spare tire location isn't exactly a selling point... the reason in the > xj they moved it inside. Not sure what they were thinking. I was quite > happy with my spare inside my Grand Cherokee. They certainly didn't > add any room inside by doing that. > > The GC had an annoying little wobble on the road, but when pressed it > responded as it should. The wobble occurred when moving the wheel a > bit, but much more stable and solid feeling than say an Explorer or Blazer. > > john > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:22:40 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: [WJ-Grand] Re: fsj: Grand Cherokee Test Drive I guess the moral of the story is... buy used... ? john On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Don White wrote: >--> >--> >-->39K doesn't sound too bad to me. My 2000 WJ Laredo was loaded and had a >-->sticker of $36,000 plus and that was in early February of 2000. If you are >-->looking to purchase a new Grand Cherokee, the good news is that sticker >-->prices are down from what they were a few years ago. Unfortunately, if you >-->are looking to sell an older WJ, you might be shocked to learn what it is >-->worth on the used car market. >--> >-->Don >--> >-->----- Original Message ----- >-->From: "john" >-->To: "Chuck Balog" >-->Cc: "xj-list" ; ; >--> >-->Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:46 AM >-->Subject: [WJ-Grand] Re: fsj: Grand Cherokee Test Drive >--> >--> >--> >-->On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Chuck Balog wrote: >--> >-->>-->If anyone has DirecTV, they're running a continuous loop of all the >-->>-->new GC ads and a Speed TV review of the vehicle. It's 100% >-->>-->advertizing, but fun to watch. They take one of the Limiteds down to >-->>-->Baja. My personal favorite quote was as they were driving through the >-->>-->shopping area of La Jolla, the driver said, "The new Jeep Grand >-->>-->Cherokee was designed to be just as at home in high-end shopping areas >-->>-->as it is offroad." >-->>--> >-->>-->I guess so. Priced out the Limited with the Hemi, side air bags, and >-->>-->4x4 popular equipment group (skid plates, tow hooks, etc.) and the >-->>-->MSRP came to $39K. That's a lot for an offroad version of the Dodge >-->>-->Magnum..... >--> >-->ONLY $39K? most of the GC's I've seen on the lot have stickers well >-->into the $40's... I wonder if they have anything like this on comcast >-->cable... :) >--> >-->Yes, the offroad version of the Dodge Magnum, with just a wee bit more >-->headroom. :) >--> >-->It's also interesting to note that the Jeep Wagoneer was expensive in >-->it's market, but back then it was a true leader in it's area. When >-->the SJ model Full Size Jeep came out in November 1962 it was in a class >-->all it's own. It was years later before the big three fielded anything >-->close to it. Jeep has been taken over by car guys. Thankfully it's >-->still a Jeep but really for how long... >--> >-->It's also amusing to me to see some of the SJ features added back in, >-->like positioning of the fuel tank and the spare tire... although the >-->spare tire location isn't exactly a selling point... the reason in the >-->xj they moved it inside. Not sure what they were thinking. I was quite >-->happy with my spare inside my Grand Cherokee. They certainly didn't >-->add any room inside by doing that. >--> >-->The GC had an annoying little wobble on the road, but when pressed it >-->responded as it should. The wobble occurred when moving the wheel a >-->bit, but much more stable and solid feeling than say an Explorer or Blazer. >--> >-->john >--> >--> ---- >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >-->Yahoo! Groups Links >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >--> >-->------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> >-->Yahoo! Autos. Everything you need to know about buying >-->or selling a car. FREE Quotes, 3600 Tours, Research, >-->Blue Book, Compare Vehicles, Buy Used >-->http://us.click.yahoo.com/kEZsdA/bwnGAA/YiGOAA/Aav0lB/TM >-->--------------------------------------------------------------------~-> >--> >--> >-->Yahoo! Groups Links >--> >--><*> To visit your group on the web, go to: >--> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WJ-Grand/ >--> >--><*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >--> WJ-Grand-unsubscribe-at-yahoogroups.com >--> >--><*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: >--> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >--> >--> >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2288 **************************