From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Jan 1 20:45:49 2005 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Sunday, January 2 2005 Volume 01 : Number 2330 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Info on AMC20? Re: fsj: Info on AMC20? Re: fsj: Info on AMC20? Re: fsj: What to take? fsj: Re: Re: Need parts for 81 Wagoneer Re: fsj: Info on AMC20? Re: fsj: What to take? fsj: Re: [db] more pop corn Re: fsj: Info on AMC20? Re: fsj: What to take? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 16:28:31 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: Info on AMC20? A: All the M20 axles I have checked were passenger's side stamped. It may or may not be a Trac-Loc as some were switched at the dealership under warranty to open due to "weird" symptoms. I wouldn't run in 4 hi with that far mismatched gears with a NP229 as the specs say 4% max diference. (shouldn't bother a NP228 as bad and NP208 would be interesting to drive that way. It would feel like front wheel drive with the higher front gears. For the record, I would NOT suggest even trying to drive in 4x4 the other way around!) For your front lift, I suggest getting a Ford D44 solid front axle (low pinion till mid '76 or high pinion with 3.31 matching reverse cut gears) and swap your low pinion gears in for a wide track bolt in SOA. Then you just need to drill both steering knuckles and add an http://www.ottindustries.com high steer arm kit (like mine, as I did both sides and then I was able to bolt the stock steering tierods in place) I heard on the news last night a 6.6 hit, but no major waves were produced. Found it. But on this one is on the right (pass) side, opposite what all my info said. Ah, it's what makes being a mechanic so much fun. LOL... Code BB, wheel to wheel 54"+ so it's a wide track which means: 3:31's and a TracLok. Like the gears, but now I can't 4x until I get the front one installed too. Unless it's like solid packed ice/snow with no dry spots right? If I understand it right, on a totally slippery surface, the viscous coupler would not be harmed in fulltime 4x4 mode right? Front is still the original D44 with 2.72's 'till I do the lift kit I suppose... Seems hard to believe that 10 days ago when I was laying out there swapping the rears, the roads were packed sleet/freezing rain/snow about 4" thick for about 3 days. (the XJ LOVED it -very impressed with it's performance during my 70mi RT each day) Then temps went up and today it was like 70. At least there were no tsunamis... I can't hardly watch that stuff on TV if I really think about what those poor folks lives are like now daily. It's too heart wrenching. I keep trying to impress upon the kids the enormity of it but I don't think they really understand. I guess they can't. Their lives are so dissimilar to what those folks are living...I don't think they CAN grasp it yet... too young and inexperienced... - -- Apparently common sense is a finite resource. Unfortunately the population continues to expand. - ---------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee Laredo - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 16:17:07 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Info on AMC20? On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, JeepNut wrote: >-->Found it. But on this one is on the right (pass) side, opposite what >-->all my info said. >-->Ah, it's what makes being a mechanic so much fun. LOL... >--> >-->Code BB, wheel to wheel 54"+ so it's a wide track which means: >-->3:31's and a TracLok. where'd you get it??? >-->Like the gears, but now I can't 4x until I get the front one installed >-->too. Unless it's like solid packed ice/snow with no dry spots right? >-->If I understand it right, on a totally slippery surface, the viscous >-->coupler would not be harmed in fulltime 4x4 mode right? yes, it would be harmed... it would have to slip to make up the difference. My guess is it would destroy itself within a few miles... I could be wrong, but is it worth the risk? I'd use it only to get unstuck... >-->Front is still the original D44 with 2.72's 'till I do the lift kit I >-->suppose... >--> >-->Seems hard to believe that 10 days ago when I was laying out there >-->swapping the rears, the roads were packed sleet/freezing rain/snow about >-->4" thick for about 3 days. (the XJ LOVED it -very impressed with it's >-->performance during my 70mi RT each day) Then temps went up and today it >-->was like 70. it's still around the 40's here... a little rain... ...no snow, no tsunamis, no earthquakes, no volcanic activity... kind of expecting three out of four... but not worried. :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 16:44:41 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: Info on AMC20? A: For counting the axle ratio, turn 1 tire (with the other on the ground) and then divide by 2 the revolutions because the spider gears split the difference between the wheels. For the gasket, it's a big O ring in there, but made of paper or rubber depending what company (Felpro, et al) I go with plain black silicon and wash the cover and housing with paint thinner or carb cleaner first. That stopped the leaks in all the ones I've had, where the gasket was a leaker in most. If the old axle is M20, you could just swap the gears over to match. On Fri, 31 Dec 2004, JeepNut wrote: >-->from the office and that grinding noise I've been worried about finally >-->stopped. Oh, it was because the LR axle/wheel assembly departed the >-->vehicle as I was running about 50mph. WHEE! ouch. >--> I was watching in the mirrors while steering the sled, now spewing >-->sparks as the backing plate started grinding itself flat on the roadbed, >-->to the side of the road. The thing careened across the road behind me >-->to the right side of the road, off an embankment, POGO'ED airborne off >-->the axle then wobbled, bounced, rolled, and otherwise made it across 7 >-->lanes of traffic to the opposite shoulder where it stopped without >-->hitting ANY other vehicles. This in itself was flat out amazing. wow. >--> So I got to spend the coldest days of the year so far out on the >-->carport concrete floor, in a 20-30mph wind for 3 or 4 days, with temps >-->in the single digits overnight, and teens/20s during the day taking the >-->rear end out of the RezRunner (bless you Vince, where ever you are!) and >-->taking the rear out of the '88 and swapping them. good to have spares... >--> Now assembled and running again, it seems like a strong rear. No >-->grinding in this puppy. >--> But I know the '81 carried the venerable AMC20 but I have no idea if >-->this pup has a trac-loc or whatever in it. Vince's comcast mail account >-->is closed so not sure how to reach him to ask... it's highly unlikely that you had a trash lock in the '81 Model 20 rear end. Chances are extremely likely that you have 2.72 gears in there... look on the back cover, it'll say something like 41 15... that means 41 teeth on the ring, 15 on the pinion... factory manual says: axle: code: pinion to drive gear std 2.73 (math says 2.72 ;) AA 15/41 trac 2.73 (math says 2.72 ;) DD 15/41 std 3.31 BB 13/43 trac 3.31 CC 13/43 std 3.54 A 11/39 trac 3.54 N 11/39 std 3.73 GG 11/41 trac 3.73 Q 11/41 However, in '81 with a V8 you probably have the 2.72's... Not ever sure there were any options other than 3.31's... could be wrong... can verify by looking at my brochures. >--> The pumpkin has some numbers raised in the steel but I doubt that >-->those tell me things like gear ratio and whether it is trac-loc or not. >-->There is a large N then below that 428 below that 826 then 1 A 3235428 >-->with the A circled. Also 2 designs, one like a clock face with one hand >-->pointing at "3". The other design is just a 123 symbol with the pointer >-->at 2. If you really have a large N you are one lucky rascal... but those numbers don't make sense... you should see the pinion/ring values and maybe a date code... at least that's what I remember... >--> I plan to change the gear oil so I'll know if there's a trac-loc >-->when I pull the cover, but I am not sure how to tell what the gears are >-->so I'm afraid to use my 4x4 full mode in the NP229. I know there's DO NOT engage 4x4 mode until you KNOW that the front and rear gears are the SAME! >-->something about rotating the wheel and watching the driveshaft. What's >-->the formula? I rotated the tire one full turn and the drive shaft >-->rotated only about 1.7 times. keep one wheel on the ground and count the revolutions of the driveshaft for one full tire revoltion... easier to pop the cover and count the teeth... :) >--> Any ideas? pop and count. :) >--> Also if anyone knows the part number for the gasket that would be >-->cool. NAPA's books do not show the AMC 20 at all. Only lists a variety >-->of Dana rears for J10, J20, GW, Wagoneers, etc. since '63. don't think there is a gasket... a little bit of silicon will seal it up nicely, otherwise permagasket #2... soft stuff... or nothing at all... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:10:26 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: What to take? A: Agreed that common sense is the first thing to take. As for testing puddles, I went to do that with Elmo a long time ago and felt one was too deep to cross, so I tried to skirt it. Somehow there was a snag sticking into the puddle (a small downed tree) and I got it caught through my left front wheel. It pushed my son and I sideways into a VERY deep hole! The wash went up over the roof on the passenger's side and doused my son with muddy water. I decided to jump on the gas rather than brake and slide further in, and our bow wave split as we climbed back up and we breeched the water like a nuclear sub, and came to a belt screeching, mud slinging halt at the edge. I got out to see what damages there were and was very surprised to see I had hooked an abandoned (upside down, in the puddle, and out of sight from above due to the depth) Jeep CJ with my right rear bumper corner. A quick pry with a couple tire wrenches and we were under way again (I was taking my son home to Canada when we were sidetracked by the now closed 4x4 area. A casino now sits on that spot alongside the I-5) On slopes, I have dealt with some very nasty spots (icy, snowy, no room to pass) on mountain ledges by egtting everyone else out of the vehicle, then rolling back, and without brakes, cutting my wheels so the rig I was driving would back up the hill, then with a quick wheel crank, I'd spin the front around so I was facing downwards, but still slide it up against the hill. Many times too much long pedal will get you in trouble too! take common sense... pick a careful line when approaching an obstacle. Walk it first if you're not sure. If you can pull off to the side of the trail as a courtesy to others. use a stick to test the depth of puddles and mud. If you're not sure, go around. if you get crossed up on a serious side slope get the nose pointed down as quickly and as smoothly as you can. rather than putting a rock directly under you, put a tire on it. easy on the throttle, but there will be times when being timid will result in getting stuck. getting stuck will teach you more than you want to learn. avoid it. learn from others who are stuck before you. :) If you bring a winch, you'll use it. If you don't bring a winch you won't do something stupid that requires a winch. :) when fording a stream make sure you don't go too fast, or too slow... what's right? keep the bow wave just in front of you... if it comes over the hood that's not usually good... :) if you go too slow you lose momentum and could get stuck... it's fun, but it's hard... a come-a-long and shovel with a tow strap is usually more than enough to get rescued. :) try not to break or bend anything... :) john ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 18:46:12 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: Need parts for 81 Wagoneer A: That would be ezridecanopy at aol (voiding the spammers this way) On Fri, 31 Dec 2004, Blair Kipple wrote: >-->John, >-->I need a source for various body-type parts for my 81 Wagoneer. >-->Examples: door latch mechanism, door hinge, speedometer, fuel sender, >-->bumper, glove box door, door panels, etc. >--> >-->Thanks. Blair Kipple >-->Poulsbo, WA >--> there's a guy selling an entire '89 GW on one of the oddball snort lists or something for parts... nice looking rig... has NO axles, bad transmission, otherwise it's complete, he'll deliver... It's maroon... I've never had any luck with maroon vehicles... :) Anyway, here's the posting... you may have to register to get his email, it's something like ezcanopy-at-something.com... (big help ain't I? :) http://www.snort4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17187 I don't have his email address any more... sorry... btw, saw a couple of Wagoneers on craigslist: http://seattle.craigslist.org/cgi-bin/search?areaID=2&subAreaID=0&query=Wagoneer&cat=car&minAsk=min&maxAsk=max john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 19:05:58 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: Info on AMC20? A: N is just a casting in this case. (nodular iron supposedly) The long strip of numbers is the BOM (bill of materials) which Jeep used to determine what axle went to what rig without a tag on the cover. With that, you could find out when/where the axle was built and installed and VIN of the vehicles it was put into. Jeepnut wrote: .. but pray tell... what means this N....? These markings are on the top of the housing, not on the cover plate. I didn't realize the cover may have numbers, I was looking for a tag. The cover is VERY rusty so I'll have to wire brush it to see probably... (Vince lived near Chicago, so, winter, salt...) 2.72's would be cool for my mileage as well as returning the speedo to correct AND enabling the fulltime 4x4 mode again. The original D44's in the '88 were 2.72's. AND (this is the big one), this means I don't have to change out the front axle assy. from the Rez into this one to keep things matched! I don't want to have to do that, but I still have plans for a lift kit so it wouldn't be so bad I suppose. I'm assuming it's all gotta come off anyway eventually...(never done a lift kit) 'course I'd rather have the lower gears for off-roading but since this one spends most of it's time on the road, it makes more sense to have the 2.72's. I hate having to do what makes sense rather than what makes fun. Thanks for the push, I'll be working on it tomorrow. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 22:32:00 -0600 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: What to take? uh... Jim?... are you just cleaning out the mailbox or what? LOL I started this thread back in early October... but it's a good story anyway. You mean you actually discovered a fully submerged CJ in that hole while plowing through it? Did you get to keep it? ...I say finders keepers... ROFL Jim Blair wrote: >A: Agreed that common sense is the first thing to take. As for testing >puddles, I went to do that with Elmo a long time ago and felt one was too >deep to cross, so I tried to skirt it. Somehow there was a snag sticking >into the puddle (a small downed tree) and I got it caught through my left >front wheel. It pushed my son and I sideways into a VERY deep hole! The wash >went up over the roof on the passenger's side and doused my son with muddy >water. I decided to jump on the gas rather than brake and slide further in, >and our bow wave split as we climbed back up and we breeched the water like >a nuclear sub, and came to a belt screeching, mud slinging halt at the edge. >I got out to see what damages there were and was very surprised to see I had >hooked an abandoned (upside down, in the puddle, and out of sight from above >due to the depth) Jeep CJ with my right rear bumper corner. A quick pry with >a couple tire wrenches and we were under way again (I was taking my son home >to Canada when we were sidetracked by the now closed 4x4 area. A casino now >sits on that spot alongside the I-5) > On slopes, I have dealt with some very nasty spots (icy, snowy, no room >to pass) on mountain ledges by egtting everyone else out of the vehicle, >then rolling back, and without brakes, cutting my wheels so the rig I was >driving would back up the hill, then with a quick wheel crank, I'd spin the >front around so I was facing downwards, but still slide it up against the >hill. > Many times too much long pedal will get you in trouble too! > > >take common sense... > >pick a careful line when approaching an obstacle. Walk it first >if you're not sure. If you can pull off to the side of the trail >as a courtesy to others. > >use a stick to test the depth of puddles and mud. If you're not >sure, go around. > >if you get crossed up on a serious side slope get the nose >pointed down as quickly and as smoothly as you can. > >rather than putting a rock directly under you, put a tire on it. > >easy on the throttle, but there will be times when being timid >will result in getting stuck. > >getting stuck will teach you more than you want to learn. avoid it. > >learn from others who are stuck before you. :) > >If you bring a winch, you'll use it. If you don't bring a winch >you won't do something stupid that requires a winch. :) > >when fording a stream make sure you don't go too fast, or too slow... >what's right? keep the bow wave just in front of you... if it >comes over the hood that's not usually good... :) if you go too >slow you lose momentum and could get stuck... > >it's fun, but it's hard... > >a come-a-long and shovel with a tow strap is usually more than enough >to get rescued. :) > >try not to break or bend anything... :) > >john > > > - -- Apparently common sense is a finite resource. Unfortunately the population continues to expand. - ---------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee Laredo - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:22:59 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [db] more pop corn On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, wmpless wrote: >-->John, was surprised to see how expensive the W123 was when new. Just wishing >-->my wife's GM car would keep the value as well as the old diesel MBs. Wiard >-->PS had end of Sixties early Seventies Jeep Wagoneers - a long time before >-->the SUV craze. the Wagoneers were also quite expensive when new, and also hold their value... 1981 Mercedes 300D - $25,640 1981 Jeep Wagoneer - $10,464 1981 Ford Bronco - $9,085 1981 GMC Jimmy - $8,856 1981 Ford Crown Vic - $8,700 1981 Chev Impala - $7,552 1981 VW Rabbit - $6,570 john >-->----- Original Message ----- >-->From: "john" >-->To: "wmpless" >-->Cc: >-->Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 10:46 PM >-->Subject: Re: [db] more pop corn >--> >--> >-->> >-->> hey, I'll make you a superb deal on a pair of 123's... both >-->> are 5 cylinders... "checkered" history? nah... just plain broken... ;) >-->> >-->> I'll even throw in a case of Costco popcorn, butter lover's ok? :) >-->> >-->> john >-->> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 22:50:38 -0600 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: Info on AMC20? I don't wanna say... ... but since you asked, www.off-road.com/jeep/tech/axle/amc20.html I swear I didn't go there looking... it was the first link that came up when I googled "identifying AMC 20". As for the use of the 4x4 mode with the mismatched axles... I'm with you. I'll err on the side of safety, but I had to ask just for general education. I won't need the 4x4 actually since I won't be going to the trails for a while. But it could get slickery again before spring... john wrote: >On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, JeepNut wrote: > > > >>-->Found it. But on this one is on the right (pass) side, opposite what >>-->all my info said. >>-->Ah, it's what makes being a mechanic so much fun. LOL... >>--> >>-->Code BB, wheel to wheel 54"+ so it's a wide track which means: >>-->3:31's and a TracLok. >> >> > >where'd you get it??? > > > >>-->Like the gears, but now I can't 4x until I get the front one installed >>-->too. Unless it's like solid packed ice/snow with no dry spots right? >>-->If I understand it right, on a totally slippery surface, the viscous >>-->coupler would not be harmed in fulltime 4x4 mode right? >> >> > >yes, it would be harmed... it would have to slip to make up the difference. >My guess is it would destroy itself within a few miles... I could be >wrong, but is it worth the risk? I'd use it only to get unstuck... > > > >>-->Front is still the original D44 with 2.72's 'till I do the lift kit I >>-->suppose... >>--> >>-->Seems hard to believe that 10 days ago when I was laying out there >>-->swapping the rears, the roads were packed sleet/freezing rain/snow about >>-->4" thick for about 3 days. (the XJ LOVED it -very impressed with it's >>-->performance during my 70mi RT each day) Then temps went up and today it >>-->was like 70. >> >> > >it's still around the 40's here... a little rain... > >...no snow, no tsunamis, no earthquakes, no volcanic activity... kind of expecting >three out of four... but not worried. :) > >john > > ---- > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > - -- Apparently common sense is a finite resource. Unfortunately the population continues to expand. - ---------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee Laredo - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 22:54:47 -0600 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: What to take? P.S. We did go the offroad park that was the stimulus for this thread, but did not get to do any wheeling. The 4x4 trails criss-cross the ATV/moto trails so they don't allow any Jeepin' on race days. It was a blast anyway. We were all just as muddy as the truck exterior WOULD have been after traipsing around the woods all day and getting plastered by mud by every group of ATVs that started. We were in a perfect spot at the start line to get splattered big time... The I took my two boys and a friend each. We all had a great time. Jim Blair wrote: >A: Agreed that common sense is the first thing to take. As for testing >puddles, I went to do that with Elmo a long time ago and felt one was too >deep to cross, so I tried to skirt it. Somehow there was a snag sticking >into the puddle (a small downed tree) and I got it caught through my left >front wheel. It pushed my son and I sideways into a VERY deep hole! The wash >went up over the roof on the passenger's side and doused my son with muddy >water. I decided to jump on the gas rather than brake and slide further in, >and our bow wave split as we climbed back up and we breeched the water like >a nuclear sub, and came to a belt screeching, mud slinging halt at the edge. >I got out to see what damages there were and was very surprised to see I had >hooked an abandoned (upside down, in the puddle, and out of sight from above >due to the depth) Jeep CJ with my right rear bumper corner. A quick pry with >a couple tire wrenches and we were under way again (I was taking my son home >to Canada when we were sidetracked by the now closed 4x4 area. A casino now >sits on that spot alongside the I-5) > On slopes, I have dealt with some very nasty spots (icy, snowy, no room >to pass) on mountain ledges by egtting everyone else out of the vehicle, >then rolling back, and without brakes, cutting my wheels so the rig I was >driving would back up the hill, then with a quick wheel crank, I'd spin the >front around so I was facing downwards, but still slide it up against the >hill. > Many times too much long pedal will get you in trouble too! > > >take common sense... > >pick a careful line when approaching an obstacle. Walk it first >if you're not sure. If you can pull off to the side of the trail >as a courtesy to others. > >use a stick to test the depth of puddles and mud. If you're not >sure, go around. > >if you get crossed up on a serious side slope get the nose >pointed down as quickly and as smoothly as you can. > >rather than putting a rock directly under you, put a tire on it. > >easy on the throttle, but there will be times when being timid >will result in getting stuck. > >getting stuck will teach you more than you want to learn. avoid it. > >learn from others who are stuck before you. :) > >If you bring a winch, you'll use it. If you don't bring a winch >you won't do something stupid that requires a winch. :) > >when fording a stream make sure you don't go too fast, or too slow... >what's right? keep the bow wave just in front of you... if it >comes over the hood that's not usually good... :) if you go too >slow you lose momentum and could get stuck... > >it's fun, but it's hard... > >a come-a-long and shovel with a tow strap is usually more than enough >to get rescued. :) > >try not to break or bend anything... :) > >john > > > - -- Apparently common sense is a finite resource. Unfortunately the population continues to expand. - ---------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee Laredo - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2330 **************************