From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Jan 2 17:56:44 2005 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, January 3 2005 Volume 01 : Number 2331 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Info on AMC20? Re: fsj: Info on AMC20? fsj: RE: [db] more pop corn Re: fsj: What to take? fsj: update on old issue fsj: engine rebuilder note fsj: '81 wag parts fsj: Re: possible parts source fsj: Re: engine rebuilder note fsj: Re: update on old issue FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:41:57 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Info on AMC20? terry howe wrote that... we worked together on that site... I quit in nov '97... I had moved the fsj list to that server that summer and got blocked from it and started this one... ugly. saw terry in ouray. john On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, JeepNut wrote: >-->I don't wanna say... ... but since you asked, >-->www.off-road.com/jeep/tech/axle/amc20.html >-->I swear I didn't go there looking... it was the first link that came up >-->when I googled "identifying AMC 20". >--> >-->As for the use of the 4x4 mode with the mismatched axles... >-->I'm with you. I'll err on the side of safety, but I had to ask just for >-->general education. I won't need the 4x4 actually since I won't be going >-->to the trails for a while. But it could get slickery again before spring... >--> >--> >--> >-->john wrote: >--> >-->>On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, JeepNut wrote: >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->>>-->Found it. But on this one is on the right (pass) side, opposite what >-->>>-->all my info said. >-->>>-->Ah, it's what makes being a mechanic so much fun. LOL... >-->>>--> >-->>>-->Code BB, wheel to wheel 54"+ so it's a wide track which means: >-->>>-->3:31's and a TracLok. >-->>> >-->>> >-->> >-->>where'd you get it??? >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->>>-->Like the gears, but now I can't 4x until I get the front one installed >-->>>-->too. Unless it's like solid packed ice/snow with no dry spots right? >-->>>-->If I understand it right, on a totally slippery surface, the viscous >-->>>-->coupler would not be harmed in fulltime 4x4 mode right? >-->>> >-->>> >-->> >-->>yes, it would be harmed... it would have to slip to make up the difference. >-->>My guess is it would destroy itself within a few miles... I could be >-->>wrong, but is it worth the risk? I'd use it only to get unstuck... >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->>>-->Front is still the original D44 with 2.72's 'till I do the lift kit I >-->>>-->suppose... >-->>>--> >-->>>-->Seems hard to believe that 10 days ago when I was laying out there >-->>>-->swapping the rears, the roads were packed sleet/freezing rain/snow about >-->>>-->4" thick for about 3 days. (the XJ LOVED it -very impressed with it's >-->>>-->performance during my 70mi RT each day) Then temps went up and today it >-->>>-->was like 70. >-->>> >-->>> >-->> >-->>it's still around the 40's here... a little rain... >-->> >-->>...no snow, no tsunamis, no earthquakes, no volcanic activity... kind of expecting >-->>three out of four... but not worried. :) >-->> >-->>john >-->> >-->> ---- >-->> >-->>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >-->> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >-->>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> >-->> >-->> >--> >--> >-->-- >-->Apparently common sense is a finite resource. >-->Unfortunately the population continues to expand. >-->---------------------------------------------------------- >-->'87 Street Comanche #24/100 >-->'88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... >-->'92 Cherokee Laredo >-->---------------------------------------------------------- >-->Registered Linux user #287453 >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 23:05:49 -0600 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: Info on AMC20? Wow that sounds like a lot of work. Besides, I've got 3 Jeep D44's out here now. Can't justify buying a Ford front on top of it all. I was planning just to get the Rusty's 4" Lift Complete from B.J.'s. Its got the appropriately arched springs front and rear... Jim Blair wrote: >A: All the M20 axles I have checked were passenger's side stamped. It may or >may not be a Trac-Loc as some were switched at the dealership under warranty >to open due to "weird" symptoms. I wouldn't run in 4 hi with that far >mismatched gears with a NP229 as the specs say 4% max diference. (shouldn't >bother a NP228 as bad and NP208 would be interesting to drive that way. It >would feel like front wheel drive with the higher front gears. For the >record, I would NOT suggest even trying to drive in 4x4 the other way >around!) > For your front lift, I suggest getting a Ford D44 solid front axle (low >pinion till mid '76 or high pinion with 3.31 matching reverse cut gears) and >swap your low pinion gears in for a wide track bolt in SOA. Then you just >need to drill both steering knuckles and add an http://www.ottindustries.com >high steer arm kit (like mine, as I did both sides and then I was able to >bolt the stock steering tierods in place) > I heard on the news last night a 6.6 hit, but no major waves were >produced. > > > > Found it. But on this one is on the right (pass) side, opposite what >all my info said. >Ah, it's what makes being a mechanic so much fun. LOL... > >Code BB, wheel to wheel 54"+ so it's a wide track which means: >3:31's and a TracLok. > >Like the gears, but now I can't 4x until I get the front one installed >too. Unless it's like solid packed ice/snow with no dry spots right? >If I understand it right, on a totally slippery surface, the viscous >coupler would not be harmed in fulltime 4x4 mode right? >Front is still the original D44 with 2.72's 'till I do the lift kit I >suppose... > >Seems hard to believe that 10 days ago when I was laying out there >swapping the rears, the roads were packed sleet/freezing rain/snow about >4" thick for about 3 days. (the XJ LOVED it -very impressed with it's >performance during my 70mi RT each day) Then temps went up and today it >was like 70. >At least there were no tsunamis... I can't hardly watch that stuff on TV >if I really think about what those poor folks lives are like now daily. >It's too heart wrenching. I keep trying to impress upon the kids the >enormity of it but I don't think they really understand. I guess they >can't. Their lives are so dissimilar to what those folks are living...I >don't think they CAN grasp it yet... too young and inexperienced... > > > > > - -- Apparently common sense is a finite resource. Unfortunately the population continues to expand. - ---------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee Laredo - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:05:41 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: RE: [db] more pop corn Edmunds is pretty bogus... don't trust it, don't like it... but some of the times it's right so I usually add it to the valuation mix... and all it does is confirm that older cars are really valued on their condition more than anything else... as proven by a few encounters with the folks that provide insurance... :) anyway, try http://www.kbb.com or http://www.nada.com - you'll have to go to the older cars or I'll have to conjure up some newer prices. ;) Using a NADA older used car guide from '97 that lists the original prices... I've been researching crazy stuff like this for years with the misguided delusional idea of actually writing a book on full size jeeps... ;) I've been talking about it now for almost 10 years... I have three file cabinet drawers filled with pictures, brochures and about two 4 foot long shelves filled with factory shop manuals ranging from '62 through last week... :) OH, another source is the USED CAR PRICE GUIDE, that's what the socialists at the Department of Licensing appear to be using... as they tried to tax me on about $4,000 for this '83 300D when I transferred the title... john On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, Alec Cordova wrote: >-->> the Wagoneers were also quite expensive when new, and also hold >-->> their value... >-->> >-->> 1981 Mercedes 300D - $25,640 >-->> 1981 Jeep Wagoneer - $10,464 >-->> 1981 Ford Bronco - $9,085 >-->> 1981 GMC Jimmy - $8,856 >-->> 1981 Ford Crown Vic - $8,700 >-->> 1981 Chev Impala - $7,552 >-->> 1981 VW Rabbit - $6,570 >-->> >-->> john >--> >-->Oh this looks like fun. >--> >-->Edmunds current "Dealer Retail" values for these cars in "clean" condition >-->with only standard equipment: >--> >-->1981 Mercedes 300D - $1,882 = 93% depreciation >-->1981 Jeep Wagoneer - $ 773 = 93% less >-->1981 Ford Bronco - $(N/A) (did none of these survive this long?) >-->1981 GMC Jimmy - $ 836 = 91% less >-->1981 Ford Crown Vic - $(N/A) (these either?) >-->1981 Chev Impala - $(N/A) (same result with 5.7 diesel option) >-->1981 VW Rabbit(LS4dr)-$ 616 = 91% less (and all of $104 on trade) >--> >-->So the Wagoneer held its value as well as the Benz, but both did worse than >-->the Jimmy or the little Wabbit. >--> >-->Alec >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 23:08:31 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: What to take? A: I just replied to John's reply. Don't recall seeing the original. I didn't want what little was left of the CJ! It was almost a cube from a crusher! Lots of stolen cars were dumped in that lot and we'd just had a long stretch of heavy rain (sun had come out that morning) uh... Jim?... are you just cleaning out the mailbox or what? LOL I started this thread back in early October... but it's a good story anyway. You mean you actually discovered a fully submerged CJ in that hole while plowing through it? Did you get to keep it? ...I say finders keepers... ROFL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 12:27:31 -0600 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: update on old issue Hi all, If anyone is interested... in the fall I was complaining about oil seemingly disappearing from the engine newly transplanted from the RezRunner. It was consuming about 10-12oz a day of $5.00/qt oil. I could not tolerate the expense of that so I had to switch it back to dino oil until I got a chance to get deeper into it. Eventually I became convinced that the timing chain cover was the culprit. Over the Thanksgiving holiday I pulled the front of the motor off and installed a new gasket using IndianHead Gasket shellac instead of RTV. I have the distinction of NOW having a leakfree (oil-wise anyway) AMC 360. Who knows how long it will last but that definately was the issue. The oil was seeping from all around it and running down/blowing back all over everything. I guess I didn't notice it at first after installing because it took a while to get everything good and oil soaked. I know a lot of you very experienced guys have mentioned using one color or another of RTV as a sealant but I have to tell you that in MY experience I have not seen one single thing that was sealed with RTV that DIDN't leak like a sieve. I may regret using the Indian Head when I have to pull something apart. Maybe it is harder to clean off? I don't ever see anyone recommending that as THE gasket sealer of choice, but I have used it on most every gasket I need to seal and so far I have ZERO leaks from the valve covers, timing chain cover, oil pump assy, etc that I have sealed with it. In any case, all seems well now regarding oil leaks. - - Apparently common sense is a finite resource. Unfortunately the population continues to expand. - ---------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee Laredo - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 12:41:21 -0600 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: engine rebuilder note Guys, I just wanted to ask advice/report on things regarding the engine out of the RezRunner. Vince had a shop in Texas do the major part of the rebuild effort. He had them do a Premium Long Block setup. Here's the link. http://www.citymotorsupply.com/productdescription.asp Now I don't wanna trash them undeservedly but I don't know if they did him right or not really. When the motor starts up I definately hear knocking. Only for about 1-2 seconds just at startup, but it does knock. I have to wonder if they really did a good job on the lower end.? I also notice that when shifting through the gears manually as you shift from 2nd to 3rd, if you lighten up on the pedal so that there is light load on the motor at the higher RPM just as you shift it to 3rd, you hear that knocking again. (no I'm not winding it out to 8000RPM, just a "normal" shift sequence but done manually) Changing back to dino oil has not made it better or worse. I would think Vince knew to breakin with dino before switching to synthetic, but he's off on another of life's adventures and I can't reach him by his previous email to ask. I'm just curious for educational purposes. In any case, I thought that something like STP to make the bearings retain more lube would help and I think maybe it has a little bit, but either I'm overly sensitive to it or it does still have a little knock at startup. And yeah, STP isn't a miracle cure that will tighten up the bearing gap of course... Probably doesn't help that all the carpet is stripped out of her for now so I hear EVERYTHING that is going on under the hood. My interest is to warn any of you potential rebuilders about the shop POSSIBLY being a bad choice and to learn all I can from the experience. Please, all comments welcome. - -- Apparently common sense is a finite resource. Unfortunately the population continues to expand. - ---------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee Laredo - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 12:45:39 -0600 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: '81 wag parts man I'm just sick... I just went out to look at the Rez Runner and see about some of the parts John's buddy asked about and found that my 12 year old who had adopted the RezRunner as "his car" has busted all the dash gauges to smithreens in the truck... good grief what kind of stupidity comes into the minds of these kids... he'll be getting a good butt chewing when he gets back from his weekend out tonight.... But in case anyone was interested in dash parts.... the panel is intact and the gauges themselves may be still good, but he has bent up all the faceplates and ripped the needles off as well as busted out the plastic covers... just maddening to see these parts get destroyed senselessly... especially on something that old and getting hard to get ahold of.... grrrrr.... - -- Apparently common sense is a finite resource. Unfortunately the population continues to expand. - ---------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee Laredo - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:57:13 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: possible parts source A: Hey Colin! No 258s, 282s or IH "400" red blocks around? (That is an AMC 401 with 2 bbl used in quite a few IH's over a short span '70 to '75 IIRC?) How about some info on the Nissan diesel in the Scouts? I'm looking into doing a conversion on my MJ Comanche and running biofuel, so I need to know which bolt pattern 727 they use. AMC, Mopar or? (I know about the engine/trans adapter. That much I found out about from the CJ10 list I'm on) I'll probably go with the turbo 3.3L since diesel and bio fuel are easier to come by than gasoline where I may be moving to. Mind you, alcohol fuel is common there too and I'll already have a high compression stroker to handle it. ($0.55 a gallon in S. America) That or Toyota 1BT diesel with 5 speed auto in a Comanche/Cherokee XJ. It's tough to decide, so money will likely be the deciding factor. If the Nissan uses an AMC pattern 727, I could make the adapter work on an AW4 or AW6 and rig up an autostick with some B&M stuff I saved from a VW autostick conversion years ago (if I still have it. My parts collection seems to be dwindling wothout my selling stuff. I found the side door to my shop was broken into the other night and put the pitbull inside to catch them. They opened the door and the dog came after them, sounding like the Baskerville dog, and I went out the front door the same time, but they jumped the fence and took off. Unlikely to see them again, but parts are definitely missing from some projects except my stroker. It's definitely influential in my leaving this town) BTW, for the guys on the list, there is another group of motors bolted to the early TH400 some may be interested in. IH 304, 345 and 6.9/7.3L diesel for example. (since this involves a diesel connection, I'm also including John Meister and some other lists in this conversation) From: Colin M Rush salmineo-at-juno.com Subject: possible parts source Hello, I have not posted here in a while. I got a new job working for a place called ScoutParts. The company is devoted to supplying parts for the IHC Scout 80 and 800, the Scout II, TravelAlls, Travelettes, Wagonmasters, and pickups from about 1952 to 1980. While none of this has any use for AMC or Jeep folks, there is one perk of this job. I have access to an NOS parts source that does not deal with the public. They serve mostly the ag and industrial parts retailers. I have been finding a lot of parts that just are not normally available anymore. I am telling you this for one reason. IHC used the cast-iron case BW transmissions that the 1960s AMC and Jeep vehicles did, and some parts for those are available. If you are patient, and if you can fax me the exploded diagram of your tranmission with the parts you need circled, I will look to see if those are available. Lead time on the parts is anywhere from 1 to 4 weeks for me to get. I will warn you that the pricing is not cheap, but if you cannot find it anywhere else, give me a try. E-mail me through this list, or call me at 888-288-0550. Also, if you need a new pot joint (bell-shaped CV joint at the base of the steering column), I have the rebuild kit for that, and a rebuild kit as well. - -Colin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:30:33 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: engine rebuilder note A: STP may help a bit, but I prefer Lucas stuff these days. The noise could be poor clearancing on the mains when they rebuilt the motor (built to Chev and not AMC specs) My 304 has done the same noise for almost 2 years now. It's unlikely they did the oil gallery rear main oiler line (which is the reason many AMC motor's bearings need rebuilding in the first place, due to narrowed oil galleries, like clogged arteries), but they could also have skimped on the cam bearings too. Either will cause low pressure on startup and extended wear. The brand of oil filter makes an EXTREME difference! I had a LOT more knocking noise when I ran a Fram filter other than PH11, and will be running the NAPA gold from now on (discount at work doesn't hurt either!) Jeepnut wrote: Guys, I just wanted to ask advice/report on things regarding the engine out of the RezRunner. Vince had a shop in Texas do the major part of the rebuild effort. He had them do a Premium Long Block setup. Here's the link. http://www.citymotorsupply.com/productdescription.asp Now I don't wanna trash them undeservedly but I don't know if they did him right or not really. When the motor starts up I definately hear knocking. Only for about 1-2 seconds just at startup, but it does knock. I have to wonder if they really did a good job on the lower end.? I also notice that when shifting through the gears manually as you shift from 2nd to 3rd, if you lighten up on the pedal so that there is light load on the motor at the higher RPM just as you shift it to 3rd, you hear that knocking again. (no I'm not winding it out to 8000RPM, just a "normal" shift sequence but done manually) Changing back to dino oil has not made it better or worse. I would think Vince knew to breakin with dino before switching to synthetic, but he's off on another of life's adventures and I can't reach him by his previous email to ask. I'm just curious for educational purposes. In any case, I thought that something like STP to make the bearings retain more lube would help and I think maybe it has a little bit, but either I'm overly sensitive to it or it does still have a little knock at startup. And yeah, STP isn't a miracle cure that will tighten up the bearing gap of course... Probably doesn't help that all the carpet is stripped out of her for now so I hear EVERYTHING that is going on under the hood. My interest is to warn any of you potential rebuilders about the shop POSSIBLY being a bad choice and to learn all I can from the experience. Please, all comments welcome. - -- Apparently common sense is a finite resource. Unfortunately the population continues to expand. - ---------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee Laredo - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:52:05 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: update on old issue A: Just a little note: Now that you have disabled the FSJ anti-rust system, you will need to check the PCV (and the hose to the intake behind the carb as well as breather to the aircleaner) for functionality or you will soon have a new oil sprinkler going on due to internal pressure buildup. Most often it is the rear seal that gives! I have used Indian Head with good luck and most of the newer silicones other than plain black have leaked on me too. Jeepnut wrote: Hi all, If anyone is interested... in the fall I was complaining about oil seemingly disappearing from the engine newly transplanted from the RezRunner. It was consuming about 10-12oz a day of $5.00/qt oil. I could not tolerate the expense of that so I had to switch it back to dino oil until I got a chance to get deeper into it. Eventually I became convinced that the timing chain cover was the culprit. Over the Thanksgiving holiday I pulled the front of the motor off and installed a new gasket using IndianHead Gasket shellac instead of RTV. I have the distinction of NOW having a leakfree (oil-wise anyway) AMC 360. Who knows how long it will last but that definately was the issue. The oil was seeping from all around it and running down/blowing back all over everything. I guess I didn't notice it at first after installing because it took a while to get everything good and oil soaked. I know a lot of you very experienced guys have mentioned using one color or another of RTV as a sealant but I have to tell you that in MY experience I have not seen one single thing that was sealed with RTV that DIDN't leak like a sieve. I may regret using the Indian Head when I have to pull something apart. Maybe it is harder to clean off? I don't ever see anyone recommending that as THE gasket sealer of choice, but I have used it on most every gasket I need to seal and so far I have ZERO leaks from the valve covers, timing chain cover, oil pump assy, etc that I have sealed with it. In any case, all seems well now regarding oil leaks. - - Apparently common sense is a finite resource. Unfortunately the population continues to expand. - ---------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee Laredo - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2331 **************************