From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Jan 8 20:33:54 2005 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Sunday, January 9 2005 Volume 01 : Number 2337 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: decoding VIN - 1984 fsj: FSJ: 83 J-20 Rebuild Questions Re: fsj: FSJ: 83 J-20 Rebuild Questions fsj: Jerrari (fwd) RE: fsj: FSJ: 83 J-20 Rebuild Questions RE: fsj: FSJ: 83 J-20 Rebuild Questions fsj: possible boston trip Re: fsj: FSJ: 83 J-20 Rebuild Questions fsj: Re: snow and list info fsj: fsj - adapter/clocking ring AW4 FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:57:40 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: decoding VIN - 1984 Just looking at that J10 on ebay... looked up info on the VIN: 1JTCJ26N3ET050484 1JT C J 26 N 3E T 050484 123 4 5 67 8 9A B first three entries identify mfr, make and type. - ---------------------------------------------- 1 - us? J - jeep T - truck fourth unit, a letter, engine - ---------------------------------------------- C - (must be a 4.2 I-6) fifth character, a letter, transmission - ---------------------------------------------- J - (must be the 727 AT) 6 & 7 - series and body sytem - ---------------------------------------------- 26 - 130" wheelbase 8 id's the GVW - ---------------------------------------------- N - 9 - check digit (and must be 10 too...) - ---------------------------------------------- 3E 11th character mfring plant id - ---------------------------------------------- T- Toledo final six digits sequential production code - ---------------------------------------------- 050484 (of course there weren't 50k made... ) john (shouldn't be left alone in my office with technical books... ;) ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:29:11 -0800 From: "Kevin Bahm" Subject: fsj: FSJ: 83 J-20 Rebuild Questions I am getting ready to yank the 360 out of ^SOl^R Leaky^T, and I have the usual decisions to make: 1. Crate or re-build: I am leaning toward a re-man. long block from Jeep Motors N^R Engines Replacement Co. in Seattle. Anyone have any experience with them? Or anyone know of a good AMC machine shop in the Western WA area? (Monroe ^V Snohomish Co.) 2. Stock cam or RV? I mainly just haul stuff with it, and occasional off-road excursions. 3. Stick with stock 2bbl or upgrade to Edelbrock manifold (non-EGR?) with 4bbl carb? I think it would be more fun to upgrade, but I don^Rt want to dump too much cash into a truck my kids will drive more than I will. If I go to a 4bbl would I have to put in dual exhaust pipes? If I do that should I put headers on it or stick with stock manifolds? 4. Any compelling reason to upgrade the ignition system? I notice this seems to be a commonly upgraded item on project vehicles I^Rve checked out lately. Any advice & opinions appreciated, Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:24:58 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: FSJ: 83 J-20 Rebuild Questions excellent questions. 1) I'd go with a rebuild supervised... but that's my first thought w/o research. the remans have a guarantee... would think they'd do a good job... solicit more opinions... (I'd use a different engine, but that's me. ;) 2) I'd go with the RV cam setup from Edelbrock... (make sure your rebuild includes new cam bearings and that all the oil passages are good) 3) I'd go with the Edelebrock performer manifold and 1406... or if you can swing the extra grand, a Howell Engineering TBI setup. DO NOT go with headers... unless you're planning on building a high rpm engine and you don't care about excessive heat in the engine bay, noise and having to retighten header bolts... the stock manifold is fine. A single exhaust with a high-flow cat and a good turbo muffler with perhaps larger dia. pipe will be fine. I highly recommend Airport Welding in Snohomish. 4) I'd spend the money on good plug wires and a good coil... I like the Jacobs wires, but have had trouble with their coils and such... I'd get a good brand name high energy coil. I'd leave the stock ignition module and such, I've never had trouble with one. I have had trouble with aftermarket ones... but this is my limited experience opinion. Frankly I wouldn't spend the money on a 360, I'd swap in different make V8 or use a 4.0L which is what I'm doing on my J10. john On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Kevin Bahm wrote: >-->I am getting ready to yank the 360 out of ^SOl^R Leaky^T, and I have the usual >-->decisions to make: >--> >-->1. Crate or re-build: I am leaning toward a re-man. long block from >-->Jeep Motors N^R Engines Replacement Co. in Seattle. Anyone have any >-->experience with them? Or anyone know of a good AMC machine shop in the >-->Western WA area? (Monroe ^V Snohomish Co.) >-->2. Stock cam or RV? I mainly just haul stuff with it, and occasional >-->off-road excursions. >-->3. Stick with stock 2bbl or upgrade to Edelbrock manifold (non-EGR?) >-->with 4bbl carb? I think it would be more fun to upgrade, but I don^Rt want >-->to dump too much cash into a truck my kids will drive more than I will. If >-->I go to a 4bbl would I have to put in dual exhaust pipes? If I do that >-->should I put headers on it or stick with stock manifolds? >-->4. Any compelling reason to upgrade the ignition system? I notice this >-->seems to be a commonly upgraded item on project vehicles I^Rve checked out >-->lately. >--> >-->Any advice & opinions appreciated, >--> >-->Kevin >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:27:19 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Jerrari (fwd) excellent... I put this in my Jerrari directory... there were TWO Jerrari's... this is the one at the National Auto Museum http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/TheJerrari/ the first Jerrari info is here: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/Jerrari-1/ john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jim Blair From: Joseph Gorfinkle Subject: Re: Re: Last GW made I emailed the Museum in Reno and got a very nice rsponse which stated that the last GW was sold to a private party, but the Jerrari was still there. She sent a word doc w/brief description of that vehicle 1977 JERRARI Donated By: Harrah's Hotels & Casinos Model: Custom 4WD Wagoneer Built By: Jeep Corporation Subsidiary of American Motors Corporation Toledo, Ohio Price: N/L Engine: DOHC Ferrari 12 Cylinder, 365 H. P. Bore: 3-3/16" Stroke: 2-3/4" Displacement: 267.9 Cu. In. William F. Harrah originated the idea of combining a Ferrari with a Jeep Wagoneer to create a four-wheel-drive sports car. Harrah wanted a four-wheel-drive vehicle that could handle Nevada's winters, especially when he drove from Reno to Lake Tahoe and back. From the outside, the vehicle looks like a stock Jeep Wagoneer, but the body and chassis were combined with a Ferrari 365 GTC/4 V-12 engine and C4 five-speed transmission, which was coupled to the Jeep Quadratrack drive train. Built in Harrah's own restoration shops and to his specifications, the engine compartments and hood were stretched 2-1/2 inches, the radiator was discarded and two split units were installed on the right and left front of the engine. The mesh intake below the front license plate screens air into the helicopter-engine oil cooler. The additions of wipers and washers for the halogen headlamps and the Ice Alerts under the front bumper made driving in a Nevada snowstorm much easier. Without the hindrance of snow, top speed was 140 mph. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:18:29 -0800 From: "Kevin Bahm" Subject: RE: fsj: FSJ: 83 J-20 Rebuild Questions Thanks for the input John, My first inclination was to dump the 360 also. When its not spewing oil all over its leaking vacuum somewhere. But I've been lurking around the FSJ message boards for awhile, and general consensus seems to be that it's best to stick with the 360 or 401 AMC engines. I'm just a weekend mechanic - and not too much of that the past 10 years, so I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. Plus I'd like to get the truck back on the road by Spring! Regarding the exhaust, I replaced the entire thing about 4 years ago, including cat. converter, and Flowmaster (I think) muffler. The pipe dia. is 2.5, does that sound like enough flow for a 4bbl in your opinion? Kevin - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 2:25 PM To: Kevin Bahm Cc: Full Size Jeep List Subject: Re: fsj: FSJ: 83 J-20 Rebuild Questions excellent questions. 1) I'd go with a rebuild supervised... but that's my first thought w/o research. the remans have a guarantee... would think they'd do a good job... solicit more opinions... (I'd use a different engine, but that's me. ;) 2) I'd go with the RV cam setup from Edelbrock... (make sure your rebuild includes new cam bearings and that all the oil passages are good) 3) I'd go with the Edelebrock performer manifold and 1406... or if you can swing the extra grand, a Howell Engineering TBI setup. DO NOT go with headers... unless you're planning on building a high rpm engine and you don't care about excessive heat in the engine bay, noise and having to retighten header bolts... the stock manifold is fine. A single exhaust with a high-flow cat and a good turbo muffler with perhaps larger dia. pipe will be fine. I highly recommend Airport Welding in Snohomish. 4) I'd spend the money on good plug wires and a good coil... I like the Jacobs wires, but have had trouble with their coils and such... I'd get a good brand name high energy coil. I'd leave the stock ignition module and such, I've never had trouble with one. I have had trouble with aftermarket ones... but this is my limited experience opinion. Frankly I wouldn't spend the money on a 360, I'd swap in different make V8 or use a 4.0L which is what I'm doing on my J10. john On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Kevin Bahm wrote: >-->I am getting ready to yank the 360 out of ^SOl^R Leaky^T, and I have the usual >-->decisions to make: >--> >-->1. Crate or re-build: I am leaning toward a re-man. long block from >-->Jeep Motors N^R Engines Replacement Co. in Seattle. Anyone have any >-->experience with them? Or anyone know of a good AMC machine shop in the >-->Western WA area? (Monroe ^V Snohomish Co.) >-->2. Stock cam or RV? I mainly just haul stuff with it, and occasional >-->off-road excursions. >-->3. Stick with stock 2bbl or upgrade to Edelbrock manifold (non-EGR?) >-->with 4bbl carb? I think it would be more fun to upgrade, but I don^Rt want >-->to dump too much cash into a truck my kids will drive more than I will. If >-->I go to a 4bbl would I have to put in dual exhaust pipes? If I do that >-->should I put headers on it or stick with stock manifolds? >-->4. Any compelling reason to upgrade the ignition system? I notice this >-->seems to be a commonly upgraded item on project vehicles I^Rve checked out >-->lately. >--> >-->Any advice & opinions appreciated, >--> >-->Kevin >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:10:59 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: FSJ: 83 J-20 Rebuild Questions On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Kevin Bahm wrote: >-->Thanks for the input John, you're welcome... >-->My first inclination was to dump the 360 also. When its not spewing oil all I'd say go with your inclination... problem is where do you draw the line... at the tranny... also a piece of junque if you ask me... the xfr case? well, if you have a 229 I'd get a different one... so what, replace the entire driveline? axle drops become an issue... A friend swapped in a 258 in place of the 360... the 258 has issues too... but at least it's a factory option. >-->over its leaking vacuum somewhere. But I've been lurking around the FSJ >-->message boards for awhile, and general consensus seems to be that it's best >-->to stick with the 360 or 401 AMC engines. I'm just a weekend mechanic - and >-->not too much of that the past 10 years, so I don't want to bite off more >-->than I can chew. Plus I'd like to get the truck back on the road by Spring! >--> >-->Regarding the exhaust, I replaced the entire thing about 4 years ago, >-->including cat. converter, and Flowmaster (I think) muffler. The pipe dia. >-->is 2.5, does that sound like enough flow for a 4bbl in your opinion? more than acceptable... in fact, the recommended setup. :) john >--> >-->Kevin >--> >-->-----Original Message----- >-->From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john >-->Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 2:25 PM >-->To: Kevin Bahm >-->Cc: Full Size Jeep List >-->Subject: Re: fsj: FSJ: 83 J-20 Rebuild Questions >--> >-->excellent questions. >--> >-->1) I'd go with a rebuild supervised... but that's my first thought w/o >-->research. >--> the remans have a guarantee... would think they'd do a good job... >-->solicit >--> more opinions... (I'd use a different engine, but that's me. ;) >--> >-->2) I'd go with the RV cam setup from Edelbrock... (make sure your rebuild >-->includes >--> new cam bearings and that all the oil passages are good) >--> >-->3) I'd go with the Edelebrock performer manifold and 1406... or if you >--> can swing the extra grand, a Howell Engineering TBI setup. >--> >--> DO NOT go with headers... unless you're planning on building a high >-->rpm >--> engine and you don't care about excessive heat in the engine bay, >-->noise >--> and having to retighten header bolts... the stock manifold is fine. >--> >--> A single exhaust with a high-flow cat and a good turbo muffler with >--> perhaps larger dia. pipe will be fine. I highly recommend Airport >--> Welding in Snohomish. >--> >-->4) I'd spend the money on good plug wires and a good coil... I like the >--> Jacobs wires, but have had trouble with their coils and such... >--> I'd get a good brand name high energy coil. I'd leave the stock >--> ignition module and such, I've never had trouble with one. I have >--> had trouble with aftermarket ones... but this is my limited >-->experience >--> opinion. Frankly I wouldn't spend the money on a 360, I'd swap in >--> different make V8 or use a 4.0L which is what I'm doing on my J10. >--> >--> >-->john >--> >--> >-->On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Kevin Bahm wrote: >--> >-->>-->I am getting ready to yank the 360 out of ^SOl^R Leaky^T, and I have the >-->usual >-->>-->decisions to make: >-->>--> >-->>-->1. Crate or re-build: I am leaning toward a re-man. long block from >-->>-->Jeep Motors N^R Engines Replacement Co. in Seattle. Anyone have any >-->>-->experience with them? Or anyone know of a good AMC machine shop in the >-->>-->Western WA area? (Monroe ^V Snohomish Co.) >-->>-->2. Stock cam or RV? I mainly just haul stuff with it, and >-->occasional >-->>-->off-road excursions. >-->>-->3. Stick with stock 2bbl or upgrade to Edelbrock manifold >-->(non-EGR?) >-->>-->with 4bbl carb? I think it would be more fun to upgrade, but I don^Rt >-->want >-->>-->to dump too much cash into a truck my kids will drive more than I will. >-->If >-->>-->I go to a 4bbl would I have to put in dual exhaust pipes? If I do that >-->>-->should I put headers on it or stick with stock manifolds? >-->>-->4. Any compelling reason to upgrade the ignition system? I notice >-->this >-->>-->seems to be a commonly upgraded item on project vehicles I^Rve checked >-->out >-->>-->lately. >-->>--> >-->>-->Any advice & opinions appreciated, >-->>--> >-->>-->Kevin >-->>--> >--> >--> ---- >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 16:43:31 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: possible boston trip I may be shuffled over to boston next week (13 & 14th) to do a server install... probably won't have time for sight seeing or prolonged visits... of course I may be stuck there longer... intinerary isn't set yet... any one on the list there? john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:29:23 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: FSJ: 83 J-20 Rebuild Questions A: You have some options, depending on your plans with the vehicle. A 304 is plenty of power and a bit lighter on gas when you are running empty a lot. (not too shabby when it's loaded either. Worst I got was 10 mpg and that was with 2 tons of bricks and a trailer behind my J4000) You need gears to match the use. Tall axle gears are great for the highway and now with the NV241 OR with 4:1 low range, you can offhighway and still cruise at 70 with 3.73 (or taller) gears and 33" tires. Then there is the 4.0L option (the 4.6L stroker is better if you want a fresh motor anyways) with AW4 trans. (I just found the correct adapter plate/clocking ring from Advanced Adapters to hook up a NP case to AW4) EFI is a nice upgrade too and often needs less maintenance (as long as you have good filtration and avoid crappo gas) For a daily driver, duals are nice, but without a harmonized crossover pipe you lose too much power. The shops seem to be mixed, but I have had good luck with Global engine's better quality rebuilds. The Jeep CDI ignition works nice for a 4.0L, but with a V8, I would go with http://zmjeeps.com HEI dist setup. What's not to like about 70,000 volts and the whole system running off 1 wire? (he's doing something with a later one that can be used to operate GM TBI fuel injection as well) On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Kevin Bahm wrote: >-->I am getting ready to yank the 360 out of ^SOl^R Leaky^T, and I have the >usual >-->decisions to make: >--> >-->1. Crate or re-build: I am leaning toward a re-man. long block from >-->Jeep Motors N^R Engines Replacement Co. in Seattle. Anyone have any >-->experience with them? Or anyone know of a good AMC machine shop in the >-->Western WA area? (Monroe ^V Snohomish Co.) >-->2. Stock cam or RV? I mainly just haul stuff with it, and >occasional >-->off-road excursions. >-->3. Stick with stock 2bbl or upgrade to Edelbrock manifold >(non-EGR?) >-->with 4bbl carb? I think it would be more fun to upgrade, but I don^Rt >want >-->to dump too much cash into a truck my kids will drive more than I will. >If >-->I go to a 4bbl would I have to put in dual exhaust pipes? If I do that >-->should I put headers on it or stick with stock manifolds? >-->4. Any compelling reason to upgrade the ignition system? I notice >this >-->seems to be a commonly upgraded item on project vehicles I^Rve checked >out >-->lately. >--> >-->Any advice & opinions appreciated, >--> >-->Kevin >--> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:41:01 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: snow and list info A: We got a light dusting that was still here in the AM (I drove to work and watched a patrol car sliding, nearly out of control with his red/blues on, to the bottom of the big hill on Ryan's way. Then I drove down with my Comanche and waved to him as I went past and rolled into the rain zone) My boss cruised in with about 6" left on his roof (he's from Maple Valley) because of his roof rack holding the frozen bits. I'm going to miss the hill climb (took my Comanche up there just before you "fixed" it in 2wd and 3.07 gears with 33" tires no prob) Speaking of tires, Avons are excellent. They were the FIRST pneumatic auto tire manufacturer in the world (Britain) and I'm kicking myself for trading the new set I had (33/10.50/16s) on the Les Schwab 36" tires (they are wider and not nearly as tall as I want) well, we finally got snow in Snohomish... basically a dusting... or a trace... less than an inch... neighbor's quaddrive WJ Limited didn't make it out the paved drive... she opted to use my new gravel drive where in past years I've held the annual snohomish snowy hill climb contest... Since it's been graded level, humps and weeds removed and replaced with a nice thick layer of 1-1/4 minus pit run from builder's sand and gravel in Maltby, the hill climb contest won't be quite the same any more. :( Anyway, we decided to take the '99 WJ Laredo, selectrac, up the paved drive... of course it was a few degrees warmer then when our neighbor tried it... and we went right up. I think tires have a lot to do with it... the neighbor's 2002 has the original goodyears on it still and they're probably worn a bit, ours are newer avalon's... not sure who makes them, only heard about them a few times before, but they seem to be excellent tires. Got an email from somebody looking for a biodiesel setup and introduced them to the list (dieselbenz) and got to thinking that a few folks forget how to sub or unsub from the xj, fsj and diesel benz list, so I'm posting the instructions/rules for grins. (see below) I started the original FSJ list back in '95 with a dozen or so others, and then moved the list around... in '97 I moved it to a commercial site and started the XJ list... in Nov '97 I quit that commercial site and started these "new" lists on digest.net with much thanks to Richard Welty. I have all the digests from the FSJ, XJ and dieselbenz lists on my server. http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/digests/ http://www.wagoneers.com/XJ/digests/ http://www.wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/digests/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:26:31 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: fsj - adapter/clocking ring AW4 On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Jim Blair wrote: >-->fresh motor anyways) with AW4 trans. (I just found the correct adapter >-->plate/clocking ring from Advanced Adapters to hook up a NP case to AW4) EFI part number? price? picture? john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2337 **************************