From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Mar 12 10:05:22 2005 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, March 12 2005 Volume 01 : Number 2383 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? RE: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? RE: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:59:56 -0700 From: Matt Subject: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Well the jeep i bought was from Payson AZ "non emissions area" and now that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the CO Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 Idle reading is 5.92 standard is 1.20 Any advise on what to try would be greatly appreciated i have an 86 gw with the 360 it runs strong :) Thanks Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:53:43 -0500 (EST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? replace all vacuum lines. tighten all intake bolts and exhaust manifold bolts. clean the carb with spray cleaner. change your spark plugs and wires. make sure your timing is set properly. change your oil and air filter. one other trick is to add some alcohol to your fuel, anti-freeze stuff... all that should get it through... john On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Matt wrote: >-->Well the jeep i bought was from Payson AZ "non emissions area" and now >-->that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the CO >--> >-->Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 >-->Idle reading is 5.92 standard is 1.20 >--> >-->Any advise on what to try would be greatly appreciated i have an 86 gw >-->with the 360 it runs strong :) >--> >-->Thanks >-->Matt >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:04:09 -0700 From: Matt Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Someone also mentioned the Power Valve would that be good to replace? Should i bother i have had it backfire a few times and i heard thats all it takes to blow them? On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:59:56 -0700, Matt wrote: > Well the jeep i bought was from Payson AZ "non emissions area" and now > that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the CO > > Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 > Idle reading is 5.92 standard is 1.20 > > Any advise on what to try would be greatly appreciated i have an 86 gw > with the 360 it runs strong :) > > Thanks > Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:09:28 -0700 From: Matt Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? So would rebuilding the carb be a good idea? also can the power valve cause it to run rich? Guess if i bother to replace the power valve i might as well rebuild the carb while its off :) On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:04:09 -0700, Matt wrote: > Someone also mentioned the Power Valve would that be good to replace? > Should i bother i have had it backfire a few times and i heard thats > all it takes to blow them? > > > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:59:56 -0700, Matt wrote: > > Well the jeep i bought was from Payson AZ "non emissions area" and now > > that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the CO > > > > Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 > > Idle reading is 5.92 standard is 1.20 > > > > Any advise on what to try would be greatly appreciated i have an 86 gw > > with the 360 it runs strong :) > > > > Thanks > > Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:11:02 -0500 (EST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? yes, but you get more than one shot at the test, so before you open up that can of worms... also, read the plugs, how do they look. my son is down at davis-monthan... he's building up a 460v8 javelin right now... he's licensing it up here though... :) john On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Matt wrote: >-->Someone also mentioned the Power Valve would that be good to replace? >-->Should i bother i have had it backfire a few times and i heard thats >-->all it takes to blow them? >--> >--> >-->On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:59:56 -0700, Matt wrote: >-->> Well the jeep i bought was from Payson AZ "non emissions area" and now >-->> that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the CO >-->> >-->> Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 >-->> Idle reading is 5.92 standard is 1.20 >-->> >-->> Any advise on what to try would be greatly appreciated i have an 86 gw >-->> with the 360 it runs strong :) >-->> >-->> Thanks >-->> Matt >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:13:33 -0500 (EST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? if your gas mileage is really bad, you have black soot on your exhaust and your plugs are showing that you're running rich, yes, but if that were the case your hydrocarbons would be the failing point, right? read the plugs... If the emissions laws permit, consider upgrading to an edelbrock performer intake and 1406 carb. if you can replace the stock carb I'd look to see if you could use a Weber... of course TBI is a solution, about a grand or so for a howell engineering setup, but you could figure out your own... john On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Matt wrote: >-->So would rebuilding the carb be a good idea? also can the power valve >-->cause it to run rich? >--> >-->Guess if i bother to replace the power valve i might as well rebuild >-->the carb while its off :) >--> >--> >-->On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:04:09 -0700, Matt wrote: >-->> Someone also mentioned the Power Valve would that be good to replace? >-->> Should i bother i have had it backfire a few times and i heard thats >-->> all it takes to blow them? >-->> >-->> >-->> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:59:56 -0700, Matt wrote: >-->> > Well the jeep i bought was from Payson AZ "non emissions area" and now >-->> > that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the CO >-->> > >-->> > Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 >-->> > Idle reading is 5.92 standard is 1.20 >-->> > >-->> > Any advise on what to try would be greatly appreciated i have an 86 gw >-->> > with the 360 it runs strong :) >-->> > >-->> > Thanks >-->> > Matt >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:04:59 -0700 From: Matt Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Well not sure how big a tank this thing has but i can tell you i have over 200 on this tank of gas. so milage?? Pipe did not look really sooty but i will check again."it was rather dark" Planed on checking the plugs today when i get off work i had it tested right at closing time last night so no time to check anything. If it matters the HC readings Loaded Reading = 55 Standard = 220 Idle Reading = 162 Standard = 220 On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:59:56 -0700, Matt wrote: > Well the jeep i bought was from Payson AZ "non emissions area" and now > that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the CO > > Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 > Idle reading is 5.92 standard is 1.20 > > Any advise on what to try would be greatly appreciated i have an 86 gw > with the 360 it runs strong :) > > Thanks > Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:21:04 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Thermostat first. Well not sure how big a tank this thing has but i can tell you i have over 200 on this tank of gas. so milage?? Pipe did not look really sooty but i will check again."it was rather dark" Planed on checking the plugs today when i get off work i had it tested right at closing time last night so no time to check anything. If it matters the HC readings Loaded Reading = 55 Standard = 220 Idle Reading = 162 Standard = 220 On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:59:56 -0700, Matt wrote: > Well the jeep i bought was from Payson AZ "non emissions area" and now > that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the CO > > Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 > Idle reading is 5.92 standard is 1.20 > > Any advise on what to try would be greatly appreciated i have an 86 gw > with the 360 it runs strong :) > > Thanks > Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:52:05 -0500 (EST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Jim Blair wrote: >-->Thermostat first. do explain... too cold, too hot? what? low hydrocarbons, but high CO are caused by???? Matt, would also be nice to see ALL the data at one time in one email. It's a balancing act... >-->> that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the CO >-->> Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 >-->> Idle reading is 5.92 standard is 1.20 >-->If it matters the HC readings >-->Loaded Reading = 55 Standard = 220 >-->Idle Reading = 162 Standard = 220 john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:03:44 -0700 From: Matt Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? ok well the warmest i have seen it get after even a long drive is 190-maybe 200 Honestly don't know what nox is the only to things tested on the sheet i have are HC and CO HC Load reading 55 HC Idle Reading 162 HC Standard 220 CO Load Reading 3.57 CO Idle Reading 5.92 CO Standard 1.20 Engine was between 190 and 200 degrees when test was preformed This is an AMC 360 rebuilt about 50k ago and the 727 tranny. Oil could use a change "about 2500 since last one" Seems to run strong sputters on acceleration "sometimes" until warmed up totally. Had a few backfires when cold and one the other day when warm. Anything i missed? Thanks for the help i really appreciate it. Matt On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:59:56 -0700, Matt wrote: > Well the jeep i bought was from Payson AZ "non emissions area" and now > that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the CO > > Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 > Idle reading is 5.92 standard is 1.20 > > Any advise on what to try would be greatly appreciated i have an 86 gw > with the 360 it runs strong :) > > Thanks > Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:21:27 -0500 From: "Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR)" Subject: RE: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Richness. Andrew Watry - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:52 AM To: Jim Blair Cc: Matt; fsj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Jim Blair wrote: >-->Thermostat first. do explain... too cold, too hot? what? low hydrocarbons, but high CO are caused by???? Matt, would also be nice to see ALL the data at one time in one email. It's a balancing act... >-->> that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the >-->> CO Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 Idle reading is 5.92 >-->> standard is 1.20 >-->If it matters the HC readings >-->Loaded Reading = 55 Standard = 220 >-->Idle Reading = 162 Standard = 220 john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:23:25 -0500 From: "Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR)" Subject: RE: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? What's the NOX, if it was measured? Is the choke totally shutting off? Sounds like richness; replace cat? Andrew - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Matt Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 11:04 AM To: fsj-at-digest.net Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? ok well the warmest i have seen it get after even a long drive is 190-maybe 200 Honestly don't know what nox is the only to things tested on the sheet i have are HC and CO HC Load reading 55 HC Idle Reading 162 HC Standard 220 CO Load Reading 3.57 CO Idle Reading 5.92 CO Standard 1.20 Engine was between 190 and 200 degrees when test was preformed This is an AMC 360 rebuilt about 50k ago and the 727 tranny. Oil could use a change "about 2500 since last one" Seems to run strong sputters on acceleration "sometimes" until warmed up totally. Had a few backfires when cold and one the other day when warm. Anything i missed? Thanks for the help i really appreciate it. Matt On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:59:56 -0700, Matt wrote: > Well the jeep i bought was from Payson AZ "non emissions area" and now > that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the CO > > Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 > Idle reading is 5.92 standard is 1.20 > > Any advise on what to try would be greatly appreciated i have an 86 gw > with the 360 it runs strong :) > > Thanks > Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:04:38 -0700 From: Matt Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Well The choke is wide open. Cat is probably the original with 120k on it so that might be suspect. Will leaning it out drop the co that much just seems like a lot to me since it is 4-5 times higher than the standard? Also i read that backfires can blow the power valve and that a blown power valve can make it run rich is this true? should i be looking at this? I don't really want to pull the carb if i don't have to so... Thanks again Matt On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:23:25 -0500, Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) wrote: > What's the NIX, if it was measured? > > Is the choke totally shutting off? > > Sounds like richness; replace cat? > > Andrew > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Matt > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 11:04 AM > To: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? > > ok well the warmest i have seen it get after even a long drive is 190-maybe > 200 > > Honestly don't know what nox is the only to things tested on the sheet i > have are HC and CO > > HC Load reading 55 > HC Idle Reading 162 > HC Standard 220 > > CO Load Reading 3.57 > CO Idle Reading 5.92 > CO Standard 1.20 > > Engine was between 190 and 200 degrees when test was preformed > This is an AMC 360 rebuilt about 50k ago and the 727 tranny. Oil could use > a change "about 2500 since last one" > > Seems to run strong sputters on acceleration "sometimes" until warmed up > totally. Had a few backfires when cold and one the other day when warm. > > Anything i missed? > Thanks for the help i really appreciate it. > Matt > > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:59:56 -0700, Matt wrote: > > Well the jeep i bought was from Payson AZ "non emissions area" and now > > that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the CO > > > > Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 > > Idle reading is 5.92 standard is 1.20 > > > > Any advise on what to try would be greatly appreciated i have an 86 gw > > with the 360 it runs strong :) > > > > Thanks > > Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:35:24 -0500 (EST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Matt wrote: >-->Well The choke is wide open. Cat is probably the original with 120k on >-->it so that might be suspect. >--> >-->Will leaning it out drop the co that much just seems like a lot to me >-->since it is 4-5 times higher than the standard? you can't lean it out unless you reject, only affect idle with adjustments. busy at work on servers... haven't had time to look up issues, high CO might mean a bad cat... get a high flow/hi perf unit, about $100 or so... john >-->Also i read that backfires can blow the power valve and that a blown >-->power valve can make it run rich is this true? should i be looking at >-->this? >--> >-->I don't really want to pull the carb if i don't have to so... >--> >-->Thanks again >-->Matt >--> >--> >-->On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:23:25 -0500, Watry, Andrew (LNG-SFR) >--> wrote: >-->> What's the NIX, if it was measured? >-->> >-->> Is the choke totally shutting off? >-->> >-->> Sounds like richness; replace cat? >-->> >-->> Andrew >-->> >-->> -----Original Message----- >-->> From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Matt >-->> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 11:04 AM >-->> To: fsj-at-digest.net >-->> Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? >-->> >-->> ok well the warmest i have seen it get after even a long drive is 190-maybe >-->> 200 >-->> >-->> Honestly don't know what nox is the only to things tested on the sheet i >-->> have are HC and CO >-->> >-->> HC Load reading 55 >-->> HC Idle Reading 162 >-->> HC Standard 220 >-->> >-->> CO Load Reading 3.57 >-->> CO Idle Reading 5.92 >-->> CO Standard 1.20 >-->> >-->> Engine was between 190 and 200 degrees when test was preformed >-->> This is an AMC 360 rebuilt about 50k ago and the 727 tranny. Oil could use >-->> a change "about 2500 since last one" >-->> >-->> Seems to run strong sputters on acceleration "sometimes" until warmed up >-->> totally. Had a few backfires when cold and one the other day when warm. >-->> >-->> Anything i missed? >-->> Thanks for the help i really appreciate it. >-->> Matt >-->> >-->> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:59:56 -0700, Matt wrote: >-->> > Well the jeep i bought was from Payson AZ "non emissions area" and now >-->> > that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the CO >-->> > >-->> > Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 >-->> > Idle reading is 5.92 standard is 1.20 >-->> > >-->> > Any advise on what to try would be greatly appreciated i have an 86 gw >-->> > with the 360 it runs strong :) >-->> > >-->> > Thanks >-->> > Matt >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:15:01 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? A: SOunds like the stat is working correctly (too cold makes extra CO) Retarding engine timing cuts CO and NOx levels. It does sound like a bad cat (it's only job is CO, but some testing places think it covers NOX as well. They are WRONG! NOx can actually go up with an OEM type cat) Definitely oil change, but that's more like higher HCs. VACUUM leaks cause higher CO readings. It's due to poorly burnt fuel. If someone removed the AIR pump without fixing the cat, then that's your problem (it needs extra air to function and the extra air also blends with the exhaust gas, essentially thinning out the readings, which is why I say the AIR system is a cheat way to pass the test) Weak spark and old plugs will up the levels as well. ok well the warmest i have seen it get after even a long drive is 190-maybe 200 Honestly don't know what nox is the only to things tested on the sheet i have are HC and CO HC Load reading 55 HC Idle Reading 162 HC Standard 220 CO Load Reading 3.57 CO Idle Reading 5.92 CO Standard 1.20 Engine was between 190 and 200 degrees when test was preformed This is an AMC 360 rebuilt about 50k ago and the 727 tranny. Oil could use a change "about 2500 since last one" Seems to run strong sputters on acceleration "sometimes" until warmed up totally. Had a few backfires when cold and one the other day when warm. Anything i missed? Thanks for the help i really appreciate it. Matt On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:59:56 -0700, Matt wrote: > Well the jeep i bought was from Payson AZ "non emissions area" and now > that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the CO > > Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 > Idle reading is 5.92 standard is 1.20 > > Any advise on what to try would be greatly appreciated i have an 86 gw > with the 360 it runs strong :) > > Thanks > Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:18:15 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? A: I assumed (because I was in a hurry) the motor was running under normal operating temps. Lean drop idle will help some (after making sure the power valve isn't bad and vacuum lines are leaking) CO is poorly burnt fuel due to running too lean (or too cold) to properly burn completely. Essentially incomplete burning results in higher CO. On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Jim Blair wrote: >-->Thermostat first. do explain... too cold, too hot? what? low hydrocarbons, but high CO are caused by???? Matt, would also be nice to see ALL the data at one time in one email. It's a balancing act... >-->> that i have it in Tucson i have to pass emissions. I failed in the CO >-->> Load reading is 3.57 standard is 1.20 >-->> Idle reading is 5.92 standard is 1.20 >-->If it matters the HC readings >-->Loaded Reading = 55 Standard = 220 >-->Idle Reading = 162 Standard = 220 john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:23:09 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? A: One more bit to add: If the float is slightly too low, it will run too lean, which forces you to push harder on the gas to get power, which in turn again takes away fuel economy. I use '69 Ford F250 390 2bbl rebuild kit and power valve (on the 2100s. Not sure if it would work as good with the 2150) Nice thing about the 2100 is you can pop the top off and adjust float level with it running! (I do that with the Carter BBDs as well) So would rebuilding the carb be a good idea? also can the power valve cause it to run rich? Guess if i bother to replace the power valve i might as well rebuild the carb while its off :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:00:18 -0700 From: Matt Subject: Re: fsj: Failed emissions......Little help? Well I changed the air cleaner "really dirty" and the oil. I have all the records for the every single thing ever done to the jeep and since it was in a non emisions area that cat apears to be original is 124k on a cat alot? also how do i check the power valve on a 2150? I will be checking air injector and vacum today. I will also pop off a plug is there anything i should look for? Whats the normal operating temp for this jeep warmest i have gotten it was 190-200 and that was aftrer a few hour drive? It was in payson "higher elivation" might this mater? thanks sorry for all the questions. MMatt On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:23:09 -0800, Jim Blair wrote: > A: One more bit to add: If the float is slightly too low, it will run too > lean, which forces you to push harder on the gas to get power, which in turn > again takes away fuel economy. I use '69 Ford F250 390 2bbl rebuild kit and > power valve (on the 2100s. Not sure if it would work as good with the 2150) > Nice thing about the 2100 is you can pop the top off and adjust float > level with it running! (I do that with the Carter BBDs as well) > > > So would rebuilding the carb be a good idea? also can the power valve > cause it to run rich? > > Guess if i bother to replace the power valve i might as well rebuild > the carb while its off :) ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2383 **************************