From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Apr 13 13:04:50 2006 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, April 13 2006 Volume 01 : Number 2623 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! fsj: RE: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! RE: fsj: Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! RE: fsj: Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! fsj: Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! fsj: growing our own fuel fsj: fuel energy fsj: OT: oil and politiks rant RE: fsj: growing our own fuel FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 22:26:56 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! I'm sure the folks at the turn of the last century felt the same way about coal and steam power... alternate fuels my friend. we have the technology. why do you think I'm driving a Diesel and converting my FSJ to Diesel? vegetable oil, waste vegetable oil, used motor oil, Diesel, bioDiesel... for gas engines, there is hope in ethanol. gasoline and oil can be manufactured out of waste products, already been done... the sky is not falling, the prices are rising a bit to cover the costs of technology, and of course line the pockets of those that think they deserve it. john On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, JeepNut wrote: > -->yeah, but the stupidity of the whole oil-dependency situation is beyond > -->me... I don't mean to go on too long a rant here, but thinking about it > -->---------------------------------------------------------- > -->Registered Linux user #287453 > --> > --> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- to fry some phish: http://castlecops.com/pirt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 22:59:46 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: RE: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, g wrote: >-->Ok, way too much to read!!! Sorry. Unfortunately I voted for the guy that >-->has put all of us in this situation. BUT I think he is just lining his and who's that? Carter and Clinton? ;) this ain't about any elected official, regardless of party >-->his friends/dads pockets during these past couple years. Spending his voter >-->capital.... that's a bunch of hoey, if that was the case the liberal media would be all over them like a cheap suit.... the media hates anything smacking of conservative or rich white dudes... I think kevin hit it on the head, increased global use, and a finite supply. ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- to fry some phish: http://castlecops.com/pirt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 23:01:36 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, g wrote: >-->BUSHes, I am a stout republican but enough is enough. WE THE PEOPLE not WE >-->THE TEXANS you believe what the media gives us? we're not getting the whole truth, not that we'd have time to deal with it, or understand it... presidents come and go... they alter some of the attitudes of federal agencies, but that's about it... >--> >-->-----Original Message----- >-->From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john >-->Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 10:27 PM >-->To: JeepNut >-->Cc: xj-at-digest.net; full size jeep list >-->Subject: Re: fsj: Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! >--> >-->I'm sure the folks at the turn of the last century felt the same >-->way about coal and steam power... >--> >-->alternate fuels my friend. we have the technology. >--> >-->why do you think I'm driving a Diesel and converting my FSJ >-->to Diesel? vegetable oil, waste vegetable oil, >-->used motor oil, Diesel, bioDiesel... >--> >-->for gas engines, there is hope in ethanol. >--> >-->gasoline and oil can be manufactured out of waste products, already >-->been done... >--> >-->the sky is not falling, the prices are rising a bit to cover the >-->costs of technology, and of course line the pockets of those >-->that think they deserve it. >--> >-->john >--> >--> >-->On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, JeepNut wrote: >--> >-->> -->yeah, but the stupidity of the whole oil-dependency situation is beyond >-->> -->me... I don't mean to go on too long a rant here, but thinking about it >-->> -->---------------------------------------------------------- >-->> -->Registered Linux user #287453 >-->> --> >-->> --> >--> >--> ---- >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** >--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >--> ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> to fry some phish: http://castlecops.com/pirt >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- to fry some phish: http://castlecops.com/pirt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:33:23 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! If our government, and the ecology minded folks in our country, would get a clue, they'd be promoting Diesel engines as have the Europeans for decades. Then the farmers could make a decent living growing material for BioDiesel. Diesels offer a number of advantages over gasoline engines. Better economy, longer lived engines, less maintenance, greater durability, less pollution (yes it's true, just remember what Mark Twain said about statistics...), lower cost fuel, easily adapted for multiple fuel types, less danger in accidents of fires, less danger of explosions, longer range with less fuel on board. I had an '85 XJ with the Renault 2.1L Turbo Diesel. Other than the crappy 5 speed manual transmission it was great. It could tow about 1,500 with some effort, but other than that it was great. 26mpg in town, 32 mpg on the freeway with 4 people and luggage. If it had had an automatic transmission I would have kept it. My lower back does not like the XJ seats with manual transmissions.... :( I can hardly wait for my 6.2L powered J10 to be done so I can run a variety of waste products through it along with pump Diesel and BioDiesel. If it weren't for the costs and minor technical challenges associated with putting the Mercedes Turbo Diesel into that '92 XJ... :) (tech issues: the oil pan on the 3.0L is forward, conflicts with the axle and steering, need a rear sump to solve the problem, or copius amounts of XJ lift) The other issue is mating the engine to the AW4 or getting a divorced mount xfr case to mate to the benz transmission. john On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, Allen Zylstra wrote: >-->We are not helping by driving jeeps that consume at about 18 mpg, but >-->some ud don't have a choice as we need there capabilities. I feel good >-->to say that I drove my ZJ only once this week to haul some things. The >-->yamaha radian does much better. >--> >-->Allen >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- to fry some phish: http://castlecops.com/pirt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:39:53 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: xj: Re: [db] $2.90/gallon!?!?! Ed et al, Another very serious problem with China's industrialization is their lack of concern for environmental or safety standards. My kid was over there for a year teaching English and some of the pictures of vehicles and building sites scared the daylights out of me. They use bamboo shafts tied together for scaffolding on multi-story buildings! Their vehicles are often in poor condition and are obviously gross polluters... at least from the looks of the exhaust output in pictures in traffic. Air quality in places like bejing(sp?) are terrible. There would be days when the sky was brown and it hurt to breathe! Just read in the news the other day where local farmers attacked a paper mill and a sewage plant for polluting their water and air! newly built government sewage plant even! it was on netscape news. So this is another good reason for us to move toward BioDiesel and Ethanol. btw, saw Diesel at 2.96/gallon, reg unleaded seems to be in the low 2.90's john On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, Ed Kummel wrote: >-->Here is a statistic that will scare you... >--> >--> Current daily oil production is around 87 million barrels per day... >--> >--> If China continues to ramp up their mechanization and industry in the same manner they are today (which is very likely) China will be consuming over 90 million barrells of oil per day within 20 years. >--> Just to put that into perspective... >--> China alone...all by it's self, will be consuming MORE oil per day than can be produced by ALL oil producing countries combined... >--> >--> Analysts estimate that given China's current rate of industrial growth, Gasoline prices will be approximatly $13/gallon within 10 years. >--> >--> These figures are all because of China's explosive growth. And that's to say nothing of India which population studies say will have a larger population than China in 10-15 years.... >--> >--> These growth levels are unsustainable in the long term...but people don't care about long term...as long as I can get my returns today, I don't care about tomorrow... >--> >--> At least that's how I see things happening.. >--> Ed >--> web/gadget guru >--> >-->JeepNut wrote: >--> >--> >--> "Gee, hey you know, .... China is building the ever loving heck out of >-->manufacturing facilities... I'll just BET that they might start using >-->oil at an ever increasing rate. We'd better do something to deal with >-->our own oil dependency...the market is gonna run short..." >-->When Nixon was over there schmoozing it up, creating one of the >-->best-ever relationships with China, didn't anyone, anywhere, at any >-->level, of our "powers that be" have enough foresight to think... "hey, >-->you know, one day if we really start a ball rolling here, there could be >-->repurcussions".... isn't that what these bright boys at The Rand group >-->and other "think tank" joints are supposed to be doing all day?.... and >-->no one in the last 40 years in either party, gov't or private, at any >-->level has recognized and evangelized about the damage that was going to >-->come as a result of these developing countries evolving?....the pain for >-->the citizens, businesses, economies of our own country as supplies grew >-->ever tighter... >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- to fry some phish: http://castlecops.com/pirt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 12:47:37 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: growing our own fuel you do realize of course that we, as a planet, are only using about 2.3% of the available land for growing things... check out the CIA website for total land use. you also realize that the federal government actually pays farmers NOT to plant things, in part for crop rotation, and in part to manage supply to keep costs within reason and keep the prices up for farmers so they don't lose their investments. there is some wisdom involved in managing price fluctuations, but if there is something they can grow all the better. john On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, Jim Blair wrote: > -->The problem with biodiesel (and ethanol) is it uses a LOT of renewable > -->resources to produce. How much farm land (which has been disappearing for > -->years and is a finite resource) will be switched to that production and > -->where will the food come from? > --> > -->"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation > -->gone under." > -->- Ronald Reagan ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- to fry some phish: http://castlecops.com/pirt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 12:50:09 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: fuel energy On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, Dave wrote: > -->At 01:33 PM 4/13/2006 , john wrote: > -->> 26mpg in town, 32 mpg on > -->> the freeway with 4 people and luggage. > --> > -->Dont forget that Diesel fuel contains more energy per gallon. That is where > -->some of the mileage improvement comes from. > --> > --> Gasoline, 125,000 BTU - 1 Gal > --> Diesel, 139,200 BTU - 1 Gal = 1.11 Gal Gasoline > -->But Bio-Diesel contains less energy per gallon. > --> Soydiesel, 117,093 BTU - 1 Gal = .94 Gal Gasoline excellent data. And remember too that Diesel engines are more efficient, typically around 40% or more efficiency, while gas engines range from 15 to 20% in their use of fuels. The number may be higher with newer engines... data anyone? john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- to fry some phish: http://castlecops.com/pirt - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 14:51:03 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: fsj: OT: oil and politiks rant JeepNut said: {- kinda like a kid {- who just realized that Santa really ISN'T real.... Huh? What do you mean? What are you saying? Nah, you must've made a typo. What kind of Commie would question Santa's existence? I mean, that's like saying the Easter Bunny doesn't exist, either! [China] Yes, but remember that we can't blame China for wanting to industrialize more and modernize. It's even hard to blame them for the pollution, since we did the same thing when we went through that phase. They're just like us fifty years ago, except their population is much higher and we were first so we didn't have any competition for the oil. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if India is next. (The estimates for July 2006 put China at 1.3B and India at 1.1B. The U.S. is at 0.3B.) {- But regardless the influences from the growth of other countries.... {- even disregarding that outside influence on our prices,... haven't we {- have ANYONE in public office OR in the private sector for the last 40 {- years, that has had the presence of mind to realize that NOT building {- new refineries or increasing capacities would SOME day put this country {- into a near crisis internally as well as abroad.... Some recognized it, but Big Oil isn't going to waste their hard-earned dollars on that! I mean, it's getting harder and harder to keep topping their record profits every year! For the record, in January, Exxon announced record profits (again) of $36.13B for the year and $10.71B for the quarter. That was the highest annual net income in U.S. history, breaking their own record of $25.3B in 2004. They're expecting much, much higher for 2006. The combined 2005 profits for the top three oil companies was over $63B. ConocoPhillips' 2005 profit was $13.53B (a 66% rise), and Chevron's was $14.1B (only a 6% rise). Revenue (gross income, sales) for Exxon was at $99.66B for the quarter, though their record was $100.72B the previous quarter (3rd quarter 2005), which was "the first time a U.S. public company generated more than $100 billion in sales in a single quarter." Another interesting quote: "To put that into perspective, Exxon's revenue for the year exceeded Saudi Arabia's estimated 2005 gross domestic product of $340.5 billion, according to statistics maintained by the Central Intelligence Agency." So it's not even OPEC's fault. Despite the higher barrel prices of crude, the vast bulk of the profit is going to Big Oil right here in the west. OPEC has also been doing a good job of maintaining as steady an output as possible, and they've been (correctly) downplaying any fears from isolated and temporary sabotage problems and other civil unrest. It's Big Oil that does all the fearmongering here to drive prices up quickly, and nothing to bring them back down -- hence the looooong, sloooow slide back down in prices, which never gets back down to where it was before another spike based on fear. Heh, now who do you think the real terrorists are? john said: {- I'm sure the folks at the turn of the last century felt the same {- way about coal and steam power... I doubt it. We were able to supply that fuel ourselves, and the companies controlling the fuel didn't use the fear tactics that Big Oil uses today to drive up prices. And people weren't as dependent on that fuel for pretty much every aspect of normal life (transportation, heat, distribution of goods -- obviously there was some, but not every product people used or every day-to-day activity they participated in). {- alternate fuels my friend. we have the technology. Not yet. We're getting there, but it needs a lot more work. Currently, _every_ alternative fuel (for vehicles) takes as much or more oil to produce than it would to just use the oil-based product. Now one of the nice things about that is that you could replace the fuel used in the production. (It also centralizes the pollution, which makes it easier to contain.) I've heard the U.S. hasn't built any new nuclear power plants since the '50s (maybe '60s), mainly due to misguided treehuggers. Other countries have _modern_ nuclear power plants, and they are much more efficient and produce much less toxic waste than our old ones. So one easy step to helping with power for homes and businesses would be to build new nuclear power plants. Another partial solution is solar methods (including wind), which are getting more and more cost-effective as they refine the technology and mass produce it. Iowa has a huge set of wind farms in the north and a few other places, and last I heard, we were second in the nation for percentage of power produced by solar/renewable means. The whole midwest has plenty of wind to spare. And they've just started making wind turbines in the U.S., which makes it cheaper than importing them from Denmark and Germany (I think those were the countries -- they're mainly in north-central Europe and Scandinavia, anyway -- Holland may have been in there, too). Big Oil is also going to lie about the cost to convert the distribution to other fuels (if we go with something like hydrogen, which seems like the best solution if we can get the production to use less oil). In fact, individual gas stations replace their pumps all the time -- look how quickly the bulk of them put in new pumps to adopt the pay-at-the-pump equipment. They can easily add pumps, or replace a couple at a time (they'll still need gasoline), or build new stations. Heck, I'd think Big Oil would jump at the chance to do this, because it's an easy way to jack up the prices much higher than is actually needed to cover the costs of conversion, and it makes them smell like roses (or, literally, less like pollution) to the media. {- why do you think I'm driving a Diesel and converting my FSJ {- to Diesel? vegetable oil, waste vegetable oil, {- used motor oil, Diesel, bioDiesel... Diesels and hybrids are just a baby step. It's good to do today if you can, but it's not a long-term solution to remove our oil dependence. {- for gas engines, there is hope in ethanol. Eh, just another baby step. I've been using ethanol pretty much as long as I've been driving, because I live in Iowa. Ours is actually partially subsidized since it benefits local farmers, so our mid-grade ethanol is actually usually a couple cents cheaper than the low-grade gasoline. But it's actually slightly worse mileage, especially if you go to E85, but the benefit is in theoretically cheaper cost per gallon and less polution (and using more domestic product in place of foreign oil). And it does still require oil, and there actually wouldn't be enough corn if we tried to switch to it entirely. For those who don't know, normal mid-grade ethanol is just 10% ethanol. E85 is 85% ethanol. To use the E85, you need an engine that is designed to use it -- which are available, but not yet common. I think it's basically just that the engine has to be able to run higher compression than a normal gasoline engine can handle. (Sounds like a step between a normal gasoline engine and a Diesel, but it must still use the gasoline ignition design.) Our university buys a lot of those vehicles -- stuff like Tauruses (obviously not in production anymore), now some Escapes, etc. The E85 is apparently around 15% cheaper, but you also take about a 15% hit in mileage, so it works out to almost identical cost per mile. {- the sky is not falling, the prices are rising a bit to cover the {- costs of technology, and of course line the pockets of those {- that think they deserve it. The prices are rising, but not to cover the costs of technology. Big Oil is still not doing anywhere near their share, and their profits are definitely NOT going toward new technology (or even new refineries, as we found out when the South got smacked by the hurricanes). The "line the pockets" bit is what it's all about. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are many intelligent species in the universe. They are all owned by cats. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 12:57:47 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: RE: fsj: growing our own fuel 2.3% for growing in this country or the world? You require trees for oxygen scrubbing (something most plants don't do) This is why my next place is being made of concrete. Only a couple trees will be removed (only because they are far too large to move practically or financially. I'm building with the long term costs and impact taken into account. Power will be a combination of solar and water generated (water wheel) with LPG and power company lines for backup (I can run on a 4D battery for over a week w/o a generator) Built into the ground, I will need to insulate the one wall as the ground will be my insulation all around. Minimal footprint on the ground (just the driveway) so drainage won't be affected. Running on a well with rainwater collected for garden use. No pesticides or nasty chemicals used unless absolutely necessary. I grew up on a farm where pretty much everything was done by hand or by mule team (we had a truck for deliveries and got a tractor the last couple years) Power would come and go, so we had lanterns and wood heat (I have a wood stove too, but allergy to smoke would make me use that sparingly) Natural ventillation will allow air flow and heat rises so I'll have vents at the top to let the heat out (summer) and natural AC will occur (stays about the same temp year round) "If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under." - - Ronald Reagan you do realize of course that we, as a planet, are only using about 2.3% of the available land for growing things... check out the CIA website for total land use. you also realize that the federal government actually pays farmers NOT to plant things, in part for crop rotation, and in part to manage supply to keep costs within reason and keep the prices up for farmers so they don't lose their investments. there is some wisdom involved in managing price fluctuations, but if there is something they can grow all the better. john O http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2623 **************************