From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed May 31 22:49:04 2006 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, June 1 2006 Volume 01 : Number 2645 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: a universal th400 fsj: Re: a universal th400 RE: fsj: Re: a universal th400 RE: fsj: Re: a universal th400 RE: fsj: Re: a universal th400 RE: fsj: Re: a universal th400 RE: fsj: Re: a universal th400 fsj: ebay item - OT FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 16:38:32 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: a universal th400 I'm having trouble finding authoritative information on this nailhead issue. From what sources are authoritative I can see that the nailhead TH400s were only used from 1964 to 1966. The webrodder article has significant technical details on the differences in the years. The picture of the nailhead TH400 is NOT the same as the TH400 used in the SJ model jeeps, or the Jaguars... Notice the top of the Nailhead is NOT round as are the universal TH400s. I've had several of these Universal TH400s in my arms, I know what they look like from the top, sides and bottom. They've ridden in the trunks of my car, in the bed of my pickup and have even spent time on top of my feet. I cannot forget what they look like. And they do NOT look like a nailhead... I'd remember that distinctive pattern. :) One similiarity, however, between the two is the 1-3/16" spacer ring used, and the fact they are about 2" shorter than the standard TH400. picture of a nailhead: http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=85&SID=6&PHPSESSID=6166d046a3c6fc2ca75d28a450167fef picture of the universal TH400 used in the Jag: http://www.motorcarsltd.com/jaguar-salvage-parts/jaguar-xjs-th400-transmission.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-Hydramatic nailhead adapters: http://transmissionadapters.com/53-66_nailhead.htm Jeep transmissions, according to advance adapters: http://advanceadapters.dirxion.com/adv06htm/011/html/27.asp?dtAuto=False&dtLeftRight=RIGHT&searchtype=Keyword http://advanceadapters.dirxion.com/Main.asp BOTTOM LINE: Jeeps do not appear to have used the NAILHEAD TH400, despite what is posted by enthusiasts on AMC/AMX, etc. websites. This appears to be just another case of a cool name run amok. I'm guilty of propagating such misinformation from time to time as well. I will do some more research on this as time permits, but at this point I will continue to convulse mildly whenever I hear "nailhead" and Jeeps mentioned in the same sentence. :) That someone recased a TH400 into a nailhead case is not impossible... I've done more creative things with a little help from advance adapter, copius amounts of welding, a touch of duct tape and some bailing wire... oh yeah, and a large hammer... john On Tue, 30 May 2006, Jim Blair wrote: > -->A: I have far more than anecdotal proof of this. I have photos of a trans > -->from a Buick (not AMC) 401 nailhead motor bellhousing and the AMC TH400 > -->trans (the one in my truck when I put my 304 in) and Frank Swygert from the > -->AMC-list (who produces AIM magazine) can confirm this. > --> Buick changed patterns to the BOP, but they had produced tons of the > -->nailhead cases, not anticipating the demise of that motor happening so soon. > -->(that happened now and then, so they just made do) I have only seen BOP > -->rings on the Jeeps powered with Buick engines. > --> I was told (note, I am not 100% on this, but it makes sense) by someone at > -->Advanced Adapters that the company's first adapter was the rings for the > -->Buick trans to the other manufacturers engines. > --> > --> > -->From: "john" john-at-superdawg.wagoneers.com > -->Date: Mon May 29, 2006 1:46am(PDT) > -->Subject: a universal th400 > --> > -->> --> they used the universal TH400 until about 1974 Jim... > -->> --> From: "Jim Blair" carnuck1-at-msn.com > -->> --> Date: Sun May 28, 2006 7:31pm(PDT) -->Subject: Re: Moving > -->> --> Sale > -->> --> That's real easy then! The adapter ring means it's a Buick > -->> --> Nailhead > -->> trans -->(might want to mention it on the Buick list) > --> > -->I've read a lot of books and Jeep shop manuals Jim, never have I heard the > -->TH400 referred to as a Buick Nailhead. The universal TH-400's were > -->used in Jags, Opels and other cars, as well as Jeeps. Even the Buick > -->v8's used in the late '60's had the adapter ring. I just checked my shop > -->manuals from the mid-60's, including the supplement to SM-1019-R2 that > -->includes the Dauntless V8 (aka the Buick 350), no mention of nailheads, > -->hammerheads, etc. That the transmissions were mated to dana 20 xfr cases > -->and used also with the other engines offered makes it pretty clear that > -->they used an adapter on the TH-400 even for the Buick... I had a '68, > -->or '69 but I can't remember if it had the adapter ring or not... I > -->know my '67 did. > --> > -->Jeep is a unique set of parts, but unless you have documentation to > -->support some of these ideas it's best to stick with the facts. > --> > -->john > --> > -->http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > --> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 09:21:31 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: a universal th400 A: I have far more than anecdotal proof of this. I have photos of a trans from a Buick (not AMC) 401 nailhead motor bellhousing and the AMC TH400 trans (the one in my truck when I put my 304 in) and Frank Swygert from the AMC-list (who produces AIM magazine) can confirm this. Buick changed patterns to the BOP, but they had produced tons of the nailhead cases, not anticipating the demise of that motor happening so soon. (that happened now and then, so they just made do) I have only seen BOP rings on the Jeeps powered with Buick engines. I was told (note, I am not 100% on this, but it makes sense) by someone at Advanced Adapters that the company's first adapter was the rings for the Buick trans to the other manufacturers engines. From: "john" john-at-superdawg.wagoneers.com Date: Mon May 29, 2006 1:46am(PDT) Subject: a universal th400 >-->they used the universal TH400 until about 1974 Jim... >--> From: "Jim Blair" carnuck1-at-msn.com >--> Date: Sun May 28, 2006 7:31pm(PDT) -->Subject: Re: Moving Sale >-->That's real easy then! The adapter ring means it's a Buick Nailhead >trans -->(might want to mention it on the Buick list) I've read a lot of books and Jeep shop manuals Jim, never have I heard the TH400 referred to as a Buick Nailhead. The universal TH-400's were used in Jags, Opels and other cars, as well as Jeeps. Even the Buick v8's used in the late '60's had the adapter ring. I just checked my shop manuals from the mid-60's, including the supplement to SM-1019-R2 that includes the Dauntless V8 (aka the Buick 350), no mention of nailheads, hammerheads, etc. That the transmissions were mated to dana 20 xfr cases and used also with the other engines offered makes it pretty clear that they used an adapter on the TH-400 even for the Buick... I had a '68, or '69 but I can't remember if it had the adapter ring or not... I know my '67 did. Jeep is a unique set of parts, but unless you have documentation to support some of these ideas it's best to stick with the facts. john http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 22:26:33 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: RE: fsj: Re: a universal th400 You don't have to go that far! Here's my J4000's trans (with the ring off) and a Buick nailhead std bell off a 401. That pic of the Jag trans is for a post '73 Jag (after the nailhead cases were used up, Jag got their own purposebuilt case just like AMC did) the webrodder page is flash, but if you scroll down to look at the boltpattern you can see that while the case on the nailhead is round, the bolt pattern is NOT symmetrical: http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=85&SID=6&PHPSESSID=6166d046a3c6fc2ca75d28a450167fef whereas the universal TH400 is, see: http://www.motorcarsltd.com/salvage/jaguar-xjs-th400-transmission-3.jpg http://www.motorcarsltd.com/salvage/jaguar-xjs-th400-transmission-4.jpg close, but no cigar... Don't make me drive out to Arlington to photograph these rings Jim... :) john _________________________________________________________________ Don^Rt just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of Buick nailhead bellhousing.jpg] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of nailhead std bell.jpg] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 22:39:48 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: RE: fsj: Re: a universal th400 John, did you read the line under the pictures in http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=85&SID=6&PHPSESSID=6166d046a3c6fc2ca75d28a450167fef The first one says it is NOT a nailhead. Second one IS the nailhead! The TH400 for an XJS is much newer than '72 (when the nailhead version became extinct) so it doesn't have the adapter ring, but a purpose built trans with correct bellhousing (just like the '74 to '79 Jeep TH400 has an AMC pattern built in) Did more searching and found http://www.1956goldenhawk.com/tran400.htm (Stude used their own version of the TH400!) http://www.earlycj5.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-24576.html (CJ5 guys agree with me) I'm having trouble finding authoritative information on this nailhead issue. From what sources are authoritative I can see that the nailhead TH400s were only used from 1964 to 1966. The webrodder article has significant technical details on the differences in the years. The picture of the nailhead TH400 is NOT the same as the TH400 used in the SJ model jeeps, or the Jaguars... Notice the top of the Nailhead is NOT round as are the universal TH400s. I've had several of these Universal TH400s in my arms, I know what they look like from the top, sides and bottom. They've ridden in the trunks of my car, in the bed of my pickup and have even spent time on top of my feet. I cannot forget what they look like. And they do NOT look like a nailhead... I'd remember that distinctive pattern. :) One similiarity, however, between the two is the 1-3/16" spacer ring used, and the fact they are about 2" shorter than the standard TH400. picture of a nailhead: http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=85&SID=6&PHPSESSID=6166d046a3c6fc2ca75d28a450167fef picture of the universal TH400 used in the Jag: http://www.motorcarsltd.com/jaguar-salvage-parts/jaguar-xjs-th400-transmission.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-Hydramatic nailhead adapters: http://transmissionadapters.com/53-66_nailhead.htm Jeep transmissions, according to advance adapters: http://advanceadapters.dirxion.com/adv06htm/011/html/27.asp?dtAuto=False&dtLeftRight=RIGHT&searchtype=Keyword http://advanceadapters.dirxion.com/Main.asp BOTTOM LINE: Jeeps do not appear to have used the NAILHEAD TH400, despite what is posted by enthusiasts on AMC/AMX, etc. websites. This appears to be just another case of a cool name run amok. I'm guilty of propagating such misinformation from time to time as well. I will do some more research on this as time permits, but at this point I will continue to convulse mildly whenever I hear "nailhead" and Jeeps mentioned in the same sentence. :) That someone recased a TH400 into a nailhead case is not impossible... I've done more creative things with a little help from advance adapter, copius amounts of welding, a touch of duct tape and some bailing wire... oh yeah, and a large hammer... john http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 00:13:13 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: Re: a universal th400 the question remains, is this the stock setup? We both know that engines and trans were swapped often by folks like us. your picture does not look like any other SJ TH400 I've ever seen: http://wagoneers.com/tmp/Buicknailheadbellhousing.jpg that someone swapped in an old nailhead would not surprise me. What I'm saying is that the transmissions I've seen in SJ's do NOT look like this... none of my shop manuals show a tranny that looks like that and the history of the nailhead is so limited that it's not likely to have been used expect by folks doing swaps. I can show you a 1967 Wagoneer with a Buick 3.8L V6 and a TH350 in it. Didn't come that way from the factory, but it's out there... so showing me a picture of your J truck doesn't prove it's stock, just that it exists. My shop manuals do not show a pattern like that, but rather the one shown for the newer Jag. Every universal TH400 I've seen looks like the one in the jag, never like what's in your rig. I could be wrong, but the evidence I'm finding seems to support what I've seen... let's keep digging until we can find something authoritative. john On Tue, 30 May 2006, Jim Blair wrote: > -->You don't have to go that far! Here's my J4000's trans (with the ring off) > -->and a Buick nailhead std bell off a 401. That pic of the Jag trans is for a > -->post '73 Jag (after the nailhead cases were used up, Jag got their own > -->purposebuilt case just like AMC did) > --> > --> > -->the webrodder page is flash, but if you scroll down to look at the > -->boltpattern > -->you can see that while the case on the nailhead is round, the bolt pattern > -->is > -->NOT > -->symmetrical: > - -->http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=85&SID=6&PHPSESSID=6166d046a3c6fc 2ca75d28a450167fef > --> > -->whereas the universal TH400 is, see: > -->http: //www.motorcarsltd.com/salvage/jaguar-xjs-th400-transmission-3.jpg > -->http: //www.motorcarsltd.com/salvage/jaguar-xjs-th400-transmission-4.jpg > --> > --> > -->close, but no cigar... > --> > -->Don't make me drive out to Arlington to photograph these rings Jim... :) > --> > -->john > --> > -->_________________________________________________________________ > -->Don^Rt just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > -->http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > --> > --> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 00:15:49 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: RE: fsj: Re: a universal th400 So far the 4 I've had with TH400 have been this type or the AMC patterned one. (I've had 3 of the nailhead ones) The motor and trans in my J4000 was all original (it had 65,000 miles on it when I got it) but the tcase was modded by the Supreme Court judge who used to own it. "If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under." - - Ronald Reagan the question remains, is this the stock setup? We both know that engines and trans were swapped often by folks like us. your picture does not look like any other SJ TH400 I've ever seen: http://wagoneers.com/tmp/Buicknailheadbellhousing.jpg that someone swapped in an old nailhead would not surprise me. What I'm saying is that the transmissions I've seen in SJ's do NOT look like this... none of my shop manuals show a tranny that looks like that and the history of the nailhead is so limited that it's not likely to have been used expect by folks doing swaps. I can show you a 1967 Wagoneer with a Buick 3.8L V6 and a TH350 in it. Didn't come that way from the factory, but it's out there... so showing me a picture of your J truck doesn't prove it's stock, just that it exists. My shop manuals do not show a pattern like that, but rather the one shown for the newer Jag. Every universal TH400 I've seen looks like the one in the jag, never like what's in your rig. I could be wrong, but the evidence I'm finding seems to support what I've seen... let's keep digging until we can find something authoritative. john On Tue _________________________________________________________________ Don^Rt just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 00:15:19 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: Re: a universal th400 On Tue, 30 May 2006, Jim Blair wrote: > -->John, did you read the line under the pictures in > -->http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=85&SID=6&PHPSESSID=6166d046a3c6fc2ca75d28a450167fef > -->The first one says it is NOT a nailhead. Second one IS the nailhead! The I know that... the roundish one is the nailhead... but the pattern on the roundish nailhead is NOT what I've seen on the TH400's in SJs. I've had 23 FSJs... many of them in the '60s and '70s... I've been around a lot of the older sjs... never seen that nailhead pattern... the pattern I've seen in the universal TH400s is the same round, symmetrical holes in the one used in the Jag. john > -->TH400 for an XJS is much newer than '72 (when the nailhead version became > -->extinct) so it doesn't have the adapter ring, but a purpose built trans with > -->correct bellhousing (just like the '74 to '79 Jeep TH400 has an AMC pattern > -->built in) > --> > --> Did more searching and found http://www.1956goldenhawk.com/tran400.htm > -->(Stude used their own version of the TH400!) > -->http://www.earlycj5.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-24576.html (CJ5 guys > -->agree with me) > --> > --> > --> > -->I'm having trouble finding authoritative information on this nailhead issue. > -->From > -->what sources are authoritative I can see that the nailhead TH400s were only > -->used > -->from > -->1964 to 1966. The webrodder article has significant technical details on > -->the > -->differences > -->in the years. > --> > -->The picture of the nailhead TH400 is NOT the same as the TH400 used in the > -->SJ > -->model > -->jeeps, or the Jaguars... Notice the top of the Nailhead is NOT round as are > -->the > -->universal TH400s. I've had several of these Universal TH400s in my arms, I > -->know > -->what > -->they look like from the top, sides and bottom. They've ridden in the trunks > -->of > -->my car, > -->in the bed of my pickup and have even spent time on top of my feet. I > -->cannot > -->forget > -->what they look like. And they do NOT look like a nailhead... I'd remember > -->that > -->distinctive > -->pattern. :) > --> > -->One similiarity, however, between the two is the 1-3/16" spacer ring used, > -->and > -->the fact they > -->are about 2" shorter than the standard TH400. > --> > --> > -->picture of a nailhead: > -->http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=85&SID=6&PHPSESSID=6166d046a3c6fc2ca75d28a450167fef > --> > -->picture of the universal TH400 used in the Jag: > --> > -->http://www.motorcarsltd.com/jaguar-salvage-parts/jaguar-xjs-th400-transmission.htm > --> > --> > -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-Hydramatic > --> > --> > -->nailhead adapters: http://transmissionadapters.com/53-66_nailhead.htm > --> > --> > -->Jeep transmissions, according to advance adapters: > -->http: //advanceadapters.dirxion.com/adv06htm/011/html/27.asp?dtAuto=False&dtLeftRight=RIGHT&searchtype=Keyword > -->http: //advanceadapters.dirxion.com/Main.asp > --> > --> > -->BOTTOM LINE: Jeeps do not appear to have used the NAILHEAD TH400, despite > -->what > -->is > -->posted by enthusiasts on AMC/AMX, etc. websites. This appears to be just > -->another case > -->of a cool name run amok. I'm guilty of propagating such misinformation > -->from > -->time > -->to time as well. I will do some more research on this as time permits, > -->but at > -->this > -->point I will continue to convulse mildly whenever I hear "nailhead" and > -->Jeeps > -->mentioned > -->in the same sentence. :) > --> > -->That someone recased a TH400 into a nailhead case is not impossible... I've > -->done more > -->creative things with a little help from advance adapter, copius amounts of > -->welding, a > -->touch of duct tape and some bailing wire... oh yeah, and a large hammer... > --> > --> > -->john > -->http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > --> > --> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 22:48:24 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: ebay item - OT a friend in Australia is selling his Mustang... Here is the eBay link http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4645291135&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1 john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2645 **************************