From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Nov 19 22:25:03 2006 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, November 20 2006 Volume 01 : Number 2737 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Jeepmakeover Re: fsj: Jeepmakeover Re: fsj: Jeepmakeover Re: fsj: Jeepmakeover fsj: stuff for sale (in Seattle) FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 08:11:20 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Jeepmakeover To editors of Popular Mechanics http://www.popularmechanics.com/marketing/jeepmakeover Congrats on the practical upgrade for an old Jeep! Being a FSJ owner myself I applaud your effort and would like to hear how it's doing still. I have been in the working stages of upgrading my own rig (1984 J10 pickup) to run liquid propane fuel injection with a slightly more modern 4.0L modified to 4.6L and running the AW4 automatic with a 4:1 transfercase. A pic of it from awhile back can be seen at http://virtualjeep.com as it has been a work in progress for nearly 6 years now. _________________________________________________________________ Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://get.live.com/messenger/overview ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 19:47:28 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Jeepmakeover REF: http://www.popularmechanics.com/marketing/jeepmakeover Interesting article Jim shared with us... but wait, doesn't the front end of the durango have design issues? didn't they have a recall for bad balljoints? aren't they coil springs up front? oh wait, it's that "independent" front suspension... absolutely wonderful on a deeply rutted trail... for hanging up... see specs: http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/VehicleCompare.jsp Independent front suspension is the first thing to go on a serious 4x4 setup of toyota, chevy or any other vehicle... the ground clearance may be greater on paper, but not on a trail... This is where DC lost it on the Jeep line... the KJ was the first then the WK (where'd the J go???) it's not a Jeep any more, it's lost it... independent front suspension may improve life on the street, but follow me up trail 198 down at Evans Creek with it... http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/198.jpg http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/john1.jpg http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/john2.jpg http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/mt-rainier.jpg Unless you've got 33" tires on your rig you'll be coming through on a tow strap or cheating and putting logs in the ruts to get through... while a Jeep with as little as 2" of lift and 30" tires can get through. ...even a Jeep needs help on the 198 if the tires are less than 29": http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/alan2.jpg the four runners got stuck even with much larger tires though... Another thing, Dodge frames aren't exactly known for their strength any more... I wouldn't call the Dakota solid or sturdy... and as far as either being a good 4x4 chassis... excuse me while I think back to pulling my neighbor's 4x4 Dakota up the driveway... anyone that's been to my place knows what I had to do to get UP to help him on the easy part... http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/driveway.jpg http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/halfway.jpg http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/dakota.jpg http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/saturdaydrive.jpg (entire story here: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/escape.html (this is the one that got me in that Jeep video... along with: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/18wheels.html ) And aren't there pictures of durangos on the internet stuck in various places... I'd take a stock FSJ or XJ over either any day and run any trail with less trouble... So, what's to upgrade??? axles on an '81 and up SJ are fine, actually, '74 and up... disc brakes in front, large drums (11") in the rear, easily converted to rear discs if that's your gig... So, axles and frame ain't the gig... The ONLY issue with a Wagoneer is the boat anchor, fuel sucking, heat producing, high nickel content engine and pathetic automatic transmission... so, rather than spend 10's of thousands on a durango for it's engine, which is NOTHING to get excited about either, unless it's a newer one with the 4.7L V8; the 5.2 and 5.9 are the older style 318/360 Chryslers with push rods but the enhancement of fuel injection. (unless they've redesigned those when I wasn't paying attention, which is the case since I don't look at things like this usually...) Why not convert an AMC 360 to fuel injection and add an updated transmission? It'd be cheaper... and less hassle... Unless you've got your head full of mush and are somehow impressed with the word "Magnum" or "Hemi". Glory days stuff that ain't no more... Would be way cheaper to build up an AMC V8 despite their weight and inefficiency. I would opt for a better V8 than either the Dodge or the AMC, 4.7L V8 excluded, but that was originally designed for the Jeep WJ. And that old "elephant power" torqueflite ain't what they put into our FSJs... total junk as configured... what moron decided that you shouldn't route the trans fluid to the cooler while in park? I burned up a working 727 thinking I was cooling it down... if I'd known I would have idled it in neutral... While the idea of dropping an FSJ body on a Durango is interesting, it's a waste of time and money to get an inferior frame setup... get a decent engine/trans and spend the money on an adapter to use a Jeep transfer case and axles... Or maybe put the more nicely equipped (debatable) Durango body on the FSJ... use a J10 chassis to solve the wheelbase problem... (119") Of course if you use the Durango body you get a really cheap looking interior and incredibly bad visibility. The biggest draw of the FSJ design in the "panascopic vision". Brooke Stevens really had the "vision". If the WJ had that one feature, along with everything it has now, it would be the perfect Jeep. Even if you don't know what you're doing you should be able to put a different engine and trans into an FSJ without having to redo the driveshafts... just anchor the xfr case location on it's crossmember and move the rest of the stuff around... unless you've got a much larger engine, say a 6.2L Diesel (379 cubes) or a longer transmission... and even that might still work with some repositioning of the motor mounts and radiator... and some "gentle" rearrangement of the firewall with objects weighing four to eight pounds... :) (That's the way I put that 3.8L Buick V6 into a Chevy Luv... didn't have to mess with the drivelines either..., and then I put that same 3.8L/Th350 setup into a '67 Wagoneer with an adapter to the Dana 20 and didn't have to mess with the drivelines...) Anyway, interesting idea, but inferior base to execute the task... If I was going to do a driveline upgrade on an FSJ and I wasn't resource constrained, I'd grab a WJ's 4.7L V8, 45RFE, NV247 (Quadradrive) and consider swapping the guts out of the Dana 44s or even the axles, although that take a lot more effort reworking the mounts, and then you'd still have a weaker rear axle housing from the WJ... the Quadradrive is superb, but the installation of Electrax fore and aft would give you essentially the same solution with more control and less trouble. The 4.7L V8 is the best V8 I've ever owned... superbly smooth and powerful engine... would be quite happy in an FSJ... Maybe after the 6.2L Diesel is in Superdawg I'll start looking for a 4.7L setup for Omega... still tempted to get a 240D driveline for the CJ-2A, or a 2.5L I-6 Turbo Diesel out of a 201 or 124 and put it into an XJ... get the popcorn ready... the gears are turning... just as soon as I get the current batch of projects done and grad school finished... john meister 1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo (WJ) 4.7L V8/45RFE/NV 247 (Quadradrive) 1991 Mercedes 300D (124) 2.5L Turbo Diesel/AT(Shadowfax) 1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer (SJ) 5.9/727/np229 (Omega) 1990 Jeep Cherokee (XJ) 4.0/AW4/np242 1983 Jeep J10 Stepside (SJ) (Superdawg) was 4.2L I-6/T-5/NP208 --> 6.2L/700R4/NP219 1975 Jeep J10 (SJ)Bed/trailer hydraulic dump 1967 Jeep J100 (SJ)Panel (Rambo) 1948 Willys CJ-2A 2.0L/T90/Spicer 18 (Alpha) 1947 Willys CJ-2A 2.0L/T90/Spicer 18 (for sale) http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 21:43:39 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: Jeepmakeover You didn't pay too close of attention or you would've noticed that's a 5.7L hemi in there. (Not too bad of a track record so far, but it ain't your granpa's hemi! 20 mpg in an FSJ isn't too unlikely. I know of a Wrangler that was done and gets almost 25 on the highway!) The front axle can be retro-upgraded to solid again and the later Durango frame seems to do alright, even in collisions. You forget about the '80 (78?) up Wagoneer, Cherokee and Grand Wagoneer's penchant for rotting out the frame behind the gas tank. The 727 in these rigs was softened up for the "refined" driving of Grand Wagoneer owners. The no fluid flowing in park has been around since the start. (Actually, park was added as an after thought to the shift linkage. My cable shift '64 Polara had a lever for park separate from the gear selector. I removed the Detent so I could do engine torque up and launch by pulling the park lever when the light on the "christmas" tree hit green. ) Before '61 (?) you would put the trans in neutral and set the ebrake. REF: http://www.popularmechanics.com/marketing/jeepmakeover Interesting article Jim shared with us... but wait, doesn't the front end of the durango have design issues? didn't they have a recall for bad balljoints? aren't they coil springs up front? oh wait, it's that "independent" front suspension... absolutely wonderful on a deeply rutted trail... for hanging up... see specs: http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/VehicleCompare.jsp Independent front suspension is the first thing to go on a serious 4x4 setup of toyota, chevy or any other vehicle... the ground clearance may be greater on paper, but not on a trail... This is where DC lost it on the Jeep line... the KJ was the first then the WK (where'd the J go???) it's not a Jeep any more, it's lost it... independent front suspension may improve life on the street, but follow me up trail 198 down at Evans Creek with it... http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/198.jpg http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/john1.jpg http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/john2.jpg http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/mt-rainier.jpg Unless you've got 33" tires on your rig you'll be coming through on a tow strap or cheating and putting logs in the ruts to get through... while a Jeep with as little as 2" of lift and 30" tires can get through. ...even a Jeep needs help on the 198 if the tires are less than 29": http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/alan2.jpg the four runners got stuck even with much larger tires though... Another thing, Dodge frames aren't exactly known for their strength any more... I wouldn't call the Dakota solid or sturdy... and as far as either being a good 4x4 chassis... excuse me while I think back to pulling my neighbor's 4x4 Dakota up the driveway... anyone that's been to my place knows what I had to do to get UP to help him on the easy part... http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/driveway.jpg http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/halfway.jpg http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/dakota.jpg http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/saturdaydrive.jpg (entire story here: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/escape.html (this is the one that got me in that Jeep video... along with: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/18wheels.html ) And aren't there pictures of durangos on the internet stuck in various places... I'd take a stock FSJ or XJ over either any day and run any trail with less trouble... So, what's to upgrade??? axles on an '81 and up SJ are fine, actually, '74 and up... disc brakes in front, large drums (11") in the rear, easily converted to rear discs if that's your gig... So, axles and frame ain't the gig... The ONLY issue with a Wagoneer is the boat anchor, fuel sucking, heat producing, high nickel content engine and pathetic automatic transmission... so, rather than spend 10's of thousands on a durango for it's engine, which is NOTHING to get excited about either, unless it's a newer one with the 4.7L V8; the 5.2 and 5.9 are the older style 318/360 Chryslers with push rods but the enhancement of fuel injection. (unless they've redesigned those when I wasn't paying attention, which is the case since I don't look at things like this usually...) Why not convert an AMC 360 to fuel injection and add an updated transmission? It'd be cheaper... and less hassle... Unless you've got your head full of mush and are somehow impressed with the word "Magnum" or "Hemi". Glory days stuff that ain't no more... Would be way cheaper to build up an AMC V8 despite their weight and inefficiency. I would opt for a better V8 than either the Dodge or the AMC, 4.7L V8 excluded, but that was originally designed for the Jeep WJ. And that old "elephant power" torqueflite ain't what they put into our FSJs... total junk as configured... what moron decided that you shouldn't route the trans fluid to the cooler while in park? I burned up a working 727 thinking I was cooling it down... if I'd known I would have idled it in neutral... While the idea of dropping an FSJ body on a Durango is interesting, it's a waste of time and money to get an inferior frame setup... get a decent engine/trans and spend the money on an adapter to use a Jeep transfer case and axles... Or maybe put the more nicely equipped (debatable) Durango body on the FSJ... use a J10 chassis to solve the wheelbase problem... (119") Of course if you use the Durango body you get a really cheap looking interior and incredibly bad visibility. The biggest draw of the FSJ design in the "panascopic vision". Brooke Stevens really had the "vision". If the WJ had that one feature, along with everything it has now, it would be the perfect Jeep. Even if you don't know what you're doing you should be able to put a different engine and trans into an FSJ without having to redo the driveshafts... just anchor the xfr case location on it's crossmember and move the rest of the stuff around... unless you've got a much larger engine, say a 6.2L Diesel (379 cubes) or a longer transmission... and even that might still work with some repositioning of the motor mounts and radiator... and some "gentle" rearrangement of the firewall with objects weighing four to eight pounds... :) (That's the way I put that 3.8L Buick V6 into a Chevy Luv... didn't have to mess with the drivelines either..., and then I put that same 3.8L/Th350 setup into a '67 Wagoneer with an adapter to the Dana 20 and didn't have to mess with the drivelines...) Anyway, interesting idea, but inferior base to execute the task... If I was going to do a driveline upgrade on an FSJ and I wasn't resource constrained, I'd grab a WJ's 4.7L V8, 45RFE, NV247 (Quadradrive) and consider swapping the guts out of the Dana 44s or even the axles, although that take a lot more effort reworking the mounts, and then you'd still have a weaker rear axle housing from the WJ... the Quadradrive is superb, but the installation of Electrax fore and aft would give you essentially the same solution with more control and less trouble. The 4.7L V8 is the best V8 I've ever owned... superbly smooth and powerful engine... would be quite happy in an FSJ... Maybe after the 6.2L Diesel is in Superdawg I'll start looking for a 4.7L setup for Omega... still tempted to get a 240D driveline for the CJ-2A, or a 2.5L I-6 Turbo Diesel out of a 201 or 124 and put it into an XJ... get the popcorn ready... the gears are turning... just as soon as I get the current batch of projects done and grad school finished... john meister _________________________________________________________________ Get the latest Windows Live Messenger 8.1 Beta version. Join now. http://ideas.live.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 22:07:46 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Jeepmakeover hemi, shmemi... not impressed... test drove the WJs with the hemi, it was fast/smooth, but not that much more than the 4.7, and the 4.7 gets better mileage... why would I want to go through all that trouble to swap axles after swapping a frame and body... besides frame rot is only an issue for the poor souls that have to suffer salted roads... :) john On Sat, 18 Nov 2006, Jim Blair wrote: > -->You didn't pay too close of attention or you would've noticed that's a 5.7L > -->hemi in there. (Not too bad of a track record so far, but it ain't your ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 22:14:06 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: stuff for sale (in Seattle) Tonight I sat down and figured out I need to sell off any big stuff I don't need. Namely the 327 Nash Jeep motor (from an -at-'66 Wagoneer) or any parts thereof. I have the flexplate and adapter ring to hook it up to a TH400 along with the starter and exhaust manifolds. Only a couple pieces missing off it and that is the PS and AC brackets (look the same as the ones on my '73 J4000's original motor) and 2 bbl carb. Open to offers complete or parts thereof. (I have a working nailhead TH400 that is due for overhauling but still functions that will be coming out of my J4000 as soon as I can get to it) 401/360/304 to nailhead TH400 bell adapter ring with crank spacer and 304 flexplate will be available at that time as well. (didn't require a special starter) I forgot my camera or I'd have pics of it all. Another thing I have for sale is a FSJ 6 cyl motor mount setup. (good for converting a V8 rig to run a 4.2L or 4.0L) I have the frame horns and engine brackets along with Energy Suspension motor mounts to fit. Asking $100 obo for the setup (mounts are brand new) http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/DSC02507.jpg _________________________________________________________________ Get the latest Windows Live Messenger 8.1 Beta version. Join now. http://ideas.live.com ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2737 **************************