From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Nov 23 10:54:26 2006 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, November 23 2006 Volume 01 : Number 2740 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Re: 3 speed transmission RE: fsj: Re: 3 speed transmission and rpm RE: fsj: Re: 3 speed transmission and rpm fsj: Jeep pickups page fsj: OT: Pics of the river washout from last week's flood FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:30:16 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 3 speed transmission a few corrections to this post: correct website is: http://awshifting.com/index.html > -->#1A: The other option is to make the trans into a manually controlled unit. > -->http://aw4shifting.com makes a kit to use what looks like a joystick to > -->shift the trans. my son and his friend have come up with a way of doing this, a lot less money than the $130 listed here... will try to draw a schematic for this... there is a '90 XJ in my drive/fleet with this setup, will try to look at it this weekend. > -->#2: You need to use the 4.0L flexplate and starter as well as bellhousing > -->bolts and converter bolts to attach the trans, BUT if you have a 360 (that > -->hasn't been rebuilt special to be zero balanced) or any other AMC V8 made > -->since 1970, then you need to have the flexplate "balance weight" matched > -->from the original V8 flexplate. Not sure how well this will work out... haven't looked into it extensively. > -->#4: The motor and trans are now mated up and you need to deal with shift > -->linkages, trans cooler lines and driveshafts. (IIRC, the AW4 is 3.5" longer > -->than the 727 plus the 7/8" spacer, but double check to be sure as I have a I've got an Aw4, out... curtis should have a 727 laying around, will try to get dimensions on both. I am very interested in using an AW4 in my GW, even though we're putting a 727 back in it to get it retitled and I'm not highly motiviated to alter it. I figure the '91 GW and the '48 CJ-2A will remain stock and restored as much as feasible... won't be daily drivers. > -->#5: Almost forgot this one! A longer speedo cable will be needed to reach > -->the tcase. AW4 uses Dexron fluid and not Mopar fluid. There is also using AMSOIL 100% Synthetic ATF totally eliminates this issue, it's fully compatible, and it's longer lived and provides up to 50 degree drop in operating temperature. > -->a Lexus 6, 7 and 8 speed version of this trans that one of the AMC-list guys > -->is building to run behind his turbo 401+ V8 setup (double overdrive) cool. > -->Another "bolt in" option is a 42RE from a Grand Cherokee 6 cyl, but it's > -->computer controlled I WOULD HIGHLY DISCOURAGE the use of the 42RE, it's got a high failure rate... Jim Blair also pointed out why my '99 WJ with a 4.0L and a 42RE didn't do much better in fuel economy than my '99 WJ with a 4.7L and a 45RFE... the 42RE is less efficient. Combine less efficient with higher failure and I say that a 42RE is only slightly better than the 727, quite possibly the worst transmission, automatic, ever put in a Jeep. All you MOPAR freaks out there, remember, the 727s put in Jeeps are NOT elephant power types... they changed them... So, use an AW4 or a 45RFE out of a 4.7L V8 WJ... avoid things ZJ. > -->The other option is an early 700R4 (hydraulic controlled, often found behind > -->GM diesels) with adapters. Advance Adapter has an adapter for a Dana 300 that will require the output shaft change and a plate to use the Jeep xfr case with the 700R4, it's around $500. This is what I'll use in SuperDawg... using a GM case would require the addition of a SYE, which runs about $450... better to use the Jeep xfr case. > -->3 speed transmission > --> Posted by: "woodstercj5" woodstercj5-at-yahoo.com woodstercj5 > --> Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:50 am ((PST)) > -->I have a 90 GW with the 3 speed transmission and I'm concerned about > -->running interstate speeds. I've been keeping it at 60 mph on my daily > -->commute and I've gotten several one finger salutes from impatient > -->commuters. Does anyone have a tach hooked up to know what rpm's the > -->360 is running at say 70 mph. I don't want to blow my woody up, but I > -->don't want to get run over either! Also, is there a transmission with > -->an overdrive that could be swapped out without much difficulty? My '81 GW with 2.72 gears and 235's was taching 1,850 rpm at 60mph see: http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/tech/GEARING/272gears.html Your 90 GW most likely has 3.31 gears, see: http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/tech/GEARING/331gears.html so it'll probably idling fast at 2200 rpm or so. for other gear ratios see: http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/tech/GEARING/ john 1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo (WJ) 4.7L V8/45RFE/NV 247 (Quadradrive) 1991 Mercedes 300D (124) 2.5L Turbo Diesel/AT(Shadowfax) 1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer (SJ) 5.9/727/np229 (Omega) 1990 Jeep Cherokee (XJ) 4.0/AW4/np242 1983 Jeep J10 Stepside (SJ) (Superdawg) was 4.2L I-6/T-5/NP208 --> 6.2L/700R4/NP219 1975 Jeep J10 (SJ)Bed/trailer hydraulic dump 1967 Jeep J100 (SJ)Panel (Rambo) 1948 Willys CJ-2A 2.0L/T90/Spicer 18 (Alpha) 1947 Willys CJ-2A 2.0L/T90/Spicer 18 (for sale) http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:40:25 +0000 From: "michel balea" Subject: RE: fsj: Re: 3 speed transmission and rpm i put a tach last year.... w 2.72 gearing and 235/75/15 tires.... i can barely hear the engine... and at 2250 rpm i am at 65mph, 2500 rpm is 70ish or so..... you can push 40ish on 2nd gear.... as i did by mistake a few times even 55ish and was wondering why i did not have pick up, oooh i am in 2nd gear. I have a 2.25 single exhaust and it is very quiet. Michel 74 wag From: "Jim Blair" Reply-To: "Jim Blair" To: FSJ-at-digest.net, fsj-list-at-yahoogroups.com Subject: fsj: Re: 3 speed transmission Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:11:18 -0800 A: Taller tires help (unless you have 2.72 gears, in which case power may drop) Having a properly built lockup trans will feel like an overdrive by comparison (I had the 999 auto in my '83 Cherokee with lockup and I cruised up to 80 mph on the long stretches between cities on I-5 a few years back) Having the lockup moved to 55 mph (takes a new spring that costs -at- $5) helps a lot too. Then you can run a mild stall converter. There are 2 autotrans that will bolt to the motor than have O/D. One is the AW4 which is fairly stout and available in 23 spline after '91 in Cherokees (and early '93 Grand Cherokees) with the 4.0L. There are several things that need to be done in order to run it though. #1: It is computer controlled so you need to either wire in the computer (I'm doing that, but I also have a 4.0L motor with wiring harness awaiting me to have time to assemble it. I may actually get to look at my truck today if the waters aren't over the road again. I have 3 days off and my Comanche desperately needs work done before winter! It's getting an AW4 too so my wife can drive it) and sensors (such as the throttle position sensor with the auto trans connector) OR #1A: The other option is to make the trans into a manually controlled unit. http://aw4shifting.com makes a kit to use what looks like a joystick to shift the trans. #2: You need to use the 4.0L flexplate and starter as well as bellhousing bolts and converter bolts to attach the trans, BUT if you have a 360 (that hasn't been rebuilt special to be zero balanced) or any other AMC V8 made since 1970, then you need to have the flexplate "balance weight" matched from the original V8 flexplate. (sub note: If you have a late model reduction drive starter, it's supposed to be the same as the 4.0L one) #3: What tcase will you use? If you plan on an FSJ one, then you have to use a D300 tcase clocking ring that is THICK (mine is 7/8" plus gaskets) and the trans must be newer than 08/'90 for 23 spline. #4: The motor and trans are now mated up and you need to deal with shift linkages, trans cooler lines and driveshafts. (IIRC, the AW4 is 3.5" longer than the 727 plus the 7/8" spacer, but double check to be sure as I have a damaged memory) I'm looking for a Comanche automatic tilt steering column ('87 to '91 only) to test fit in my J10 before I put it into my Comanche I am converting. #5: Almost forgot this one! A longer speedo cable will be needed to reach the tcase. AW4 uses Dexron fluid and not $pecial Mopar fluid. There is also a Lexus 6, 7 and 8 speed version of this trans that one of the AMC-list guys is building to run behind his turbo 401+ V8 setup (double overdrive) Another "bolt in" option is a 42RE from a Grand Cherokee 6 cyl, but it's computer controlled (I looked into modding the one I had to work in my '73 J4000, but decided it was too weak to bother) The 727 flexplate from a late model GW should work with it or a 999 from a TJ (also computer controlled after '93) The other option is an early 700R4 (hydraulic controlled, often found behind GM diesels) with adapters. Aside from these, there isn't too much you can do. (I designed an O/D unit that would work but don't have the $100,000 or so it would take to make a bunch of prototypes to test) 3 speed transmission Posted by: "woodstercj5" woodstercj5-at-yahoo.com woodstercj5 Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:50 am ((PST)) I have a 90 GW with the 3 speed transmission and I'm concerned about running interstate speeds. I've been keeping it at 60 mph on my daily commute and I've gotten several one finger salutes from impatient commuters. Does anyone have a tach hooked up to know what rpm's the 360 is running at say 70 mph. I don't want to blow my woody up, but I don't want to get run over either! Also, is there a transmission with an overdrive that could be swapped out without much difficulty? _________________________________________________________________ Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 _________________________________________________________________ Get the latest Windows Live Messenger 8.1 Beta version. Join now. http://ideas.live.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:32:31 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: RE: fsj: Re: 3 speed transmission and rpm Just for fun I decided to see what my engine was doing while going to my cabin and back tonight. Specs: 304/TH400 in drive, QT with 17% O/D (.854), 3.73 gears and 33" tires. At 80 mph (top "safe" speed while empty in the rain, due to stopping issues I need to deal with, only achieved during the stretches with no other cars) my 304 was turning -at-2582.5 RPM (a little higher due to converter slippage). Towing the '87 Cherokee back at 65 mph top speed (allowing extra time and space for stopping in the rain) 2100 RPM with a couple downshifts to 2nd gear on the long hills. My final drive is 3.17 equivalent (pretty close to 3.08!) after figuring out the differences in tire size, ratios and the O/D. Took me 8 gallons round trip of 120 miles (including some slow spots and idling while moving stuff around at the cabin. The '84 J10 is now in it's winter home I built this past summer) so that's -at-15 mpg (I need a tuneup! Current Autolite 66 plugs are waaay too hot and it was pinging on the hills coming back and lagging on takeoff!) I hope to be able to get some time to do my lockup 727 and Mopar NP208 swap soon. (I'll lose my O/D but the lockup should help make the difference in speed) The Comanche AW4 conversion comes first though as it's my daily driver. (don't know when I'll have 3 days in a row off again either!) As soon as I get the 727 swapped in though, the "core" TH400 (it works but drops out of drive when hot and doesn't take off in first unless manually shifted) and QT with PT and O/D will be available for sale. It's a unipattern Nailhead TH400 case and I have both the AMC 304/360/390/401 adapter ring and Nash 327 motor and it's adapter ring to fit it. (I have a parts QT with still tight chain too) I'm surprised the chain in my QT only skips in low range because I have almost 2 feet of roll fore and aft in park! (some of it is probably due to my rear shackle flip with old springs and only 1 rear shock) I'll be posting the pics of the road washouts soon. (road was temporarily repaired but the water is rising again due to more rain. Seattle broke it's record for the month and it's not even the last day yet! We may break the yearly rainfall record but I hope not!) "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt i put a tach last year.... w 2.72 gearing and 235/75/15 tires.... i can barely hear the engine... and at 2250 rpm i am at 65mph, 2500 rpm is 70ish or so..... you can push 40ish on 2nd gear.... as i did by mistake a few times even 55ish and was wondering why i did not have pick up, oooh i am in 2nd gear. I have a 2.25 single exhaust and it is very quiet. Michel 74 wag _________________________________________________________________ View Athlete^Rs Collections with Live Search http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:20:42 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Jeep pickups page Anyone on here own this page? http://www.angelfire.com/nb2/jeeppickups/ _________________________________________________________________ View Athlete^Rs Collections with Live Search http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:45:20 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: OT: Pics of the river washout from last week's flood Yesterday I finally went up to my cabin to see how things looked (my cabin came through fine. We had a couple branches and 1 dead tree fall on the property nowhere near the cabin) 3 major sections of the road were damaged and there was almost 3 feet of mud that someone with a tractor scraped off the road. This section is patched just before the road goes over the railway on a bridge. The Railway is on the top right (level with the guardrail) There was a logjam at the railway's bridge over the river, which caused the river to flow down the railway tracks and wipe out the road. It used to be up level with the railway in this pic. One of my neighbors got stuck last night 1/2 way up the other side with a Dodge 1 ton 4x4 while pulling a trailer (pics REALLY don't show how bad it is. The bouncing took out his driveshaft) Luckily my '73 Jeep J4000 is sure footed and even made it in and out in 2wd while towing another Jeep. [IMG]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/washout/washout2.jpg[/IMG] This shows the drain pipes that were washed out from under the road. [IMG]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/washout/washout.jpg[/IMG] This Silverstream trailer was underwater at the river's bend (they were upstream of the logjam). [IMG]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/washout/trailerwasunderwater.jpg[/IMG] This is the collection pool at the bottom of Sunset Falls (road has been mostly rebuilt here already) Water was up to the front yards of the cabins next to the road. The falls are just off the pic to the left. [IMG]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/washout/sunsetfallspool.jpg[/IMG] Another view of Sunset Falls. (zoomed in!) [IMG]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/washout/sunsetfallsandrailbridge.jpg[/IMG] My view of the river. We were smart to buy on top of the hill as it is solid rock and unlikely to slide (cutting into that hill to build my new house will be a pain though!) [IMG]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/washout/myviewofriver.jpg[/IMG] Bottom 1/2 of my property. (taken from the spot where my Cabin's porch used to be years before) [IMG]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/washout/bottompartofmyproperty.jpg[/IMG] debris washed up all over the place. I didn't get out and walk closer, but some sections were piled 20 feet high with logs. 1 house went downriver (I didn't have time to get a pic of the one that was lifted up 10 feet after the last flood. High water mark was 9 feet up the stairs and branches were stuffed into the steps all the way to the top) [IMG]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/washout/debrisfield.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/washout/debrisfield2.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/washout/debrisfield3.jpg[/IMG] _________________________________________________________________ Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2740 **************************