From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Sep 6 16:18:43 2007 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, September 6 2007 Volume 01 : Number 2914 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: [db] Re: Diesel dreaming... engine comparison fsj: Re: [db] Re: Diesel dreaming... engine comparison fsj: NP229 rear seal swap RE: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap RE: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap RE: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap RE: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap fsj: Vandals Attack Man's Hummer, Leave Note (fwd) fsj: Is the Prius really "green"? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:03:32 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [db] Re: Diesel dreaming... engine comparison I think they have an inline pump... yes, height is an issue with the cummins, as is noise as they are DIRECT Injection models... john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, briankk-at-att.net wrote: # # > On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, Jim Hoffman wrote: # > # > # Okay, # > # # > # From my research the 4BT is somewhere around 120hp # > # with 300ft lbs of torque and weighs in at 700lbs. # > # Compare that with 125hp with 170ft lbs of torque for # > # the 3.0 Merc. Not sure on the weight but I'd guess it # > # to be similar or a little more... # > # # > # From what I've read on a few discussion boards I'd # > # definately go with the 4BT. I think it walks all over # > # the 3.0 for the same weight. # > # # > # Anyone want to argue differently?? # # # I think that the issue with the 4BT will be the height of the engine, that thing is said to be 2/3s of a 6BT, should weigh in at about 650 lbs. Agree that it walks all over the 3.0 merc, but will be bigger (physically) and WAY louder. Does it have an inline or rotary fuel pump? # # bk # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 17:04:40 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [db] Re: Diesel dreaming... engine comparison shouldn't be hard to beef up the front end of a full size jeep, love leaf springs... :) a body lift will give additional clearance... the 6.2 install on my '91 GW was made a little easier because of the 3" body lift... haven't seen how much sag I have to deal with yet... might have to add a leaf to the pack... we'll see... john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, briankk-at-att.net wrote: # # # -------------- Original message ---------------------- # From: john # > # > I think they have an inline pump... # > # > yes, height is an issue with the cummins, as is # > noise as they are DIRECT Injection models... # # No pre heaters is good. Direct injection is good. Inline pump = good. It's a newer design than the Merc (1978 I think) and parts availability will never be an issue. If it were me, I'd do it, if it would fit in there. Likely need new, stiffer front springs, but that would be true either way. I'd try to find out stock spring rate and increase as a proportion of the weight increase of the engine.. # # The Cummins B6 used in the Dodge uses the PTO to run the vacuum pump and steering, you could attach a "normal" external steering and vacuum pump and use the PTO as a PTO, should be able to handle a 50hp hydraulic pump, should you have the need.. # # bk # # bk # # # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 03:09:30 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap Hi Guys, The seal at the rear output shaft of the transfer case is dropping ATF all over the place now that I had the foresight to change the fluid and top it off. Checking the book, they go off into a long drawn out process of stripping the rear end of this thing to get the seal replaced (among other things). Seems to me that if I yanked the yoke I should be able to pull the seal out without a lot of other nonsense. Could it be as easy as that... anyone changed a rear seal in an NP229 often enough to recall if that's all you have to do? Thanks! JeepNut - -- In my day, we didn't have virtual reality. If a one-eyed razorback barbarian warrior was chasing you with an ax, you just had to hope you could outrun him. - Sarah M. Wolford - ---------------------------------------------------------- #1 '87 Street Comanche #24/100 - Currently Offline #2 '92 Cherokee Laredo - Bone stock #3 '88 Grand Wagoneer specs -'81 AMC 360 -.030 over; Edelbrock Performer w/ 600cfm 4bbl; TFI ignition upgrade; TF727 -mild kit; NP229; D44's F/R -3:31; 6" lift kit; stainless brake lines; ProComp 3000 shocks; Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15; OEM 14 Spoke Wagonwheels; IPF 65/55 lamps; Dozer front bumper; ...and more to come. #4 '04 Grand Cherokee Limited - Bone stock ...And they say "There's Only One"... Proof Chrysler knows NOTHING about Jeeps. - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:02:57 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap absolutely correct. Piece of cake to change those, but it's been 7 or so years since I did one on an FSJ. I did a Mopar NP208 at Christmas time in 20 minutes at sub zero temps. Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will like them only Entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) > Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 03:09:30 -0500 > From: jeepnut-at-bellsouth.net > To: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap > > Hi Guys, > The seal at the rear output shaft of the transfer case is dropping > ATF all over the place now that I had the foresight to change the fluid > and top it off. > Checking the book, they go off into a long drawn out process of > stripping the rear end of this thing to get the seal replaced (among > other things). > Seems to me that if I yanked the yoke I should be able to pull the > seal out without a lot of other nonsense. > Could it be as easy as that... anyone changed a rear seal in an > NP229 often enough to recall if that's all you have to do? > Thanks! > JeepNut > > -- > In my day, we didn't have virtual reality. If a one-eyed razorback > barbarian warrior was chasing you with an ax, you just had to hope > you could outrun him. > - Sarah M. Wolford > ---------------------------------------------------------- > #1 '87 Street Comanche #24/100 - Currently Offline > #2 '92 Cherokee Laredo - Bone stock > #3 '88 Grand Wagoneer > specs -'81 AMC 360 -.030 over; Edelbrock Performer w/ 600cfm 4bbl; > TFI ignition upgrade; TF727 -mild kit; NP229; D44's F/R -3:31; > 6" lift kit; stainless brake lines; ProComp 3000 shocks; Maxxis > Buckshot 33x12.5x15; OEM 14 Spoke Wagonwheels; IPF 65/55 > lamps; Dozer front bumper; ...and more to come. > #4 '04 Grand Cherokee Limited - Bone stock > ...And they say "There's Only One"... > Proof Chrysler knows NOTHING about Jeeps. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Registered Linux user #287453 _________________________________________________________________ Discover the new Windows Vista http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:16:50 +0000 From: "michel balea" Subject: RE: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap Yepppp, not too bad... even easier w the seal puller.... same used for the front crankshaft seal. If you knick the seal surface a little permatex #2 or your favorite sealer will make it work. Check also the front as the oil is dripping along.... the front is a tad more challenging because of the crossmember and what not (i used 2 screwdrivers, and nicked the seal surface but not drips) .... also the front has an extra felt seal... that is dealer only... number 1-J8130815 I do not remember if the seal makes a groove on the shaft... but a little sanding w #400 or 600 wet sandpaper should do the trick Michel 74wag 85Gwag (timesink or project) From: Jim Blair Reply-To: Jim Blair To: "FSJ-at-digest.net" CC: JeepNut Subject: RE: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:02:57 -0700 absolutely correct. Piece of cake to change those, but it's been 7 or so years since I did one on an FSJ. I did a Mopar NP208 at Christmas time in 20 minutes at sub zero temps. Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will like them only Entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) > Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 03:09:30 -0500 > From: jeepnut-at-bellsouth.net > To: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap > > Hi Guys, > The seal at the rear output shaft of the transfer case is dropping > ATF all over the place now that I had the foresight to change the fluid > and top it off. > Checking the book, they go off into a long drawn out process of > stripping the rear end of this thing to get the seal replaced (among > other things). > Seems to me that if I yanked the yoke I should be able to pull the > seal out without a lot of other nonsense. > Could it be as easy as that... anyone changed a rear seal in an > NP229 often enough to recall if that's all you have to do? > Thanks! > JeepNut > > -- > In my day, we didn't have virtual reality. If a one-eyed razorback > barbarian warrior was chasing you with an ax, you just had to hope > you could outrun him. > - Sarah M. Wolford > ---------------------------------------------------------- > #1 '87 Street Comanche #24/100 - Currently Offline > #2 '92 Cherokee Laredo - Bone stock > #3 '88 Grand Wagoneer > specs -'81 AMC 360 -.030 over; Edelbrock Performer w/ 600cfm 4bbl; > TFI ignition upgrade; TF727 -mild kit; NP229; D44's F/R -3:31; > 6" lift kit; stainless brake lines; ProComp 3000 shocks; Maxxis > Buckshot 33x12.5x15; OEM 14 Spoke Wagonwheels; IPF 65/55 > lamps; Dozer front bumper; ...and more to come. > #4 '04 Grand Cherokee Limited - Bone stock > ...And they say "There's Only One"... > Proof Chrysler knows NOTHING about Jeeps. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Registered Linux user #287453 _________________________________________________________________ Discover the new Windows Vista http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE _________________________________________________________________ Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Cafi. http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_SeptHMtagline1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:29:01 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap you know, I've found a much easier way to do these... actually had to do this to the pinion seals on my WJ... while on the road in South Dakota... I pulled into a shop, took out my credit card and got a receipt for about $70 to have them replace the seal, put in new parts and even had them install my amsoil synthetic gear lube... and I got a nice chair to sit in, dialed out on my verizon broadband card... and, even got a cup of coffee out of the deal... didn't even get my hands dirty... maybe I'm getting old... ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, michel balea wrote: # Yepppp, not too bad... even easier w the seal puller.... same used for the # front crankshaft seal. If you knick the seal surface a little permatex #2 or # your favorite sealer will make it work. # # Check also the front as the oil is dripping along.... the front is a tad more # challenging because of the crossmember and what not (i used 2 screwdrivers, # and nicked the seal surface but not drips) .... also the front has an extra # felt seal... that is dealer only... number 1-J8130815 # # I do not remember if the seal makes a groove on the shaft... but a little # sanding w #400 or 600 wet sandpaper should do the trick # # Michel # 74wag # 85Gwag (timesink or project) # # From: Jim Blair # Reply-To: Jim Blair # To: "FSJ-at-digest.net" # CC: JeepNut # Subject: RE: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap # Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:02:57 -0700 # # absolutely correct. Piece of cake to change those, but it's been 7 or so # years # since I did one on an FSJ. I did a Mopar NP208 at Christmas time in 20 # minutes # at sub zero temps. # # Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will # like them only Entangle and hold the poor and # weak, while the rich and powerful will easily # break through them # # ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) # # > Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 03:09:30 -0500 # > From: jeepnut-at-bellsouth.net # > To: fsj-at-digest.net # > Subject: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap # > # > Hi Guys, # > The seal at the rear output shaft of the transfer case is dropping # > ATF all over the place now that I had the foresight to change the fluid # > and top it off. # > Checking the book, they go off into a long drawn out process of # > stripping the rear end of this thing to get the seal replaced (among # > other things). # > Seems to me that if I yanked the yoke I should be able to pull the # > seal out without a lot of other nonsense. # > Could it be as easy as that... anyone changed a rear seal in an # > NP229 often enough to recall if that's all you have to do? # > Thanks! # > JeepNut # > # > -- # > In my day, we didn't have virtual reality. If a one-eyed razorback # > barbarian warrior was chasing you with an ax, you just had to hope # > you could outrun him. # > - Sarah M. Wolford # > ---------------------------------------------------------- # > #1 '87 Street Comanche #24/100 - Currently Offline # > #2 '92 Cherokee Laredo - Bone stock # > #3 '88 Grand Wagoneer # > specs -'81 AMC 360 -.030 over; Edelbrock Performer w/ 600cfm 4bbl; # > TFI ignition upgrade; TF727 -mild kit; NP229; D44's F/R -3:31; # > 6" lift kit; stainless brake lines; ProComp 3000 shocks; Maxxis # > Buckshot 33x12.5x15; OEM 14 Spoke Wagonwheels; IPF 65/55 # > lamps; Dozer front bumper; ...and more to come. # > #4 '04 Grand Cherokee Limited - Bone stock # > ...And they say "There's Only One"... # > Proof Chrysler knows NOTHING about Jeeps. # > ---------------------------------------------------------- # > Registered Linux user #287453 # # _________________________________________________________________ # Discover the new Windows Vista # http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE # # _________________________________________________________________ # Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Cafi. # http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_SeptHMtagline1 # # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:56:31 +0000 From: "michel balea" Subject: RE: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap I did that after the Moab excursion.... when i realized that the rear breather tube was off, and we went thru over 1 foot deep mud holes... went to the local place to have the rear diff "serviced" it was so fast... this is when I looked and realized my RTV was still there, so they suck (both ways) the fluid and added new fluid.... of course this is when it started to ooze from the rear seal.... but at least it has been quiet Michel From: john To: michel balea CC: carnuck1-at-msn.com, fsj-at-digest.net, jeepnut-at-bellsouth.net Subject: RE: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:29:01 -0700 (PDT) you know, I've found a much easier way to do these... actually had to do this to the pinion seals on my WJ... while on the road in South Dakota... I pulled into a shop, took out my credit card and got a receipt for about $70 to have them replace the seal, put in new parts and even had them install my amsoil synthetic gear lube... and I got a nice chair to sit in, dialed out on my verizon broadband card... and, even got a cup of coffee out of the deal... didn't even get my hands dirty... maybe I'm getting old... ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, michel balea wrote: # Yepppp, not too bad... even easier w the seal puller.... same used for the # front crankshaft seal. If you knick the seal surface a little permatex #2 or # your favorite sealer will make it work. # # Check also the front as the oil is dripping along.... the front is a tad more # challenging because of the crossmember and what not (i used 2 screwdrivers, # and nicked the seal surface but not drips) .... also the front has an extra # felt seal... that is dealer only... number 1-J8130815 # # I do not remember if the seal makes a groove on the shaft... but a little # sanding w #400 or 600 wet sandpaper should do the trick # # Michel # 74wag # 85Gwag (timesink or project) # # From: Jim Blair # Reply-To: Jim Blair # To: "FSJ-at-digest.net" # CC: JeepNut # Subject: RE: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap # Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:02:57 -0700 # # absolutely correct. Piece of cake to change those, but it's been 7 or so # years # since I did one on an FSJ. I did a Mopar NP208 at Christmas time in 20 # minutes # at sub zero temps. # # Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will # like them only Entangle and hold the poor and # weak, while the rich and powerful will easily # break through them # # ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) # # > Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 03:09:30 -0500 # > From: jeepnut-at-bellsouth.net # > To: fsj-at-digest.net # > Subject: fsj: NP229 rear seal swap # > # > Hi Guys, # > The seal at the rear output shaft of the transfer case is dropping # > ATF all over the place now that I had the foresight to change the fluid # > and top it off. # > Checking the book, they go off into a long drawn out process of # > stripping the rear end of this thing to get the seal replaced (among # > other things). # > Seems to me that if I yanked the yoke I should be able to pull the # > seal out without a lot of other nonsense. # > Could it be as easy as that... anyone changed a rear seal in an # > NP229 often enough to recall if that's all you have to do? # > Thanks! # > JeepNut # > # > -- # > In my day, we didn't have virtual reality. If a one-eyed razorback # > barbarian warrior was chasing you with an ax, you just had to hope # > you could outrun him. # > - Sarah M. Wolford # > ---------------------------------------------------------- # > #1 '87 Street Comanche #24/100 - Currently Offline # > #2 '92 Cherokee Laredo - Bone stock # > #3 '88 Grand Wagoneer # > specs -'81 AMC 360 -.030 over; Edelbrock Performer w/ 600cfm 4bbl; # > TFI ignition upgrade; TF727 -mild kit; NP229; D44's F/R -3:31; # > 6" lift kit; stainless brake lines; ProComp 3000 shocks; Maxxis # > Buckshot 33x12.5x15; OEM 14 Spoke Wagonwheels; IPF 65/55 # > lamps; Dozer front bumper; ...and more to come. # > #4 '04 Grand Cherokee Limited - Bone stock # > ...And they say "There's Only One"... # > Proof Chrysler knows NOTHING about Jeeps. # > ---------------------------------------------------------- # > Registered Linux user #287453 # # _________________________________________________________________ # Discover the new Windows Vista # http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=windows+vista&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE # # _________________________________________________________________ # Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Cafi. # http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_SeptHMtagline1 # # _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE small business Web site and more from Microsoft. Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0930003811mrt/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:48:13 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Vandals Attack Man's Hummer, Leave Note (fwd) fyi ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from Express News WASHINGTON - When Gareth Groves brought home his massive new Hummer, he knew his environmentally friendly neighbors disapproved. But he didn't expect what happened next. The sport utility vehicle was parked for five days on the street before two masked men smashed the windows, slashed the tires and scratched into the body: "FOR THE ENVIRON." "The thought of somebody vandalizing it never crossed my mind," said Gareth Groves, who lives near American University in Northwest Washington. "I've kind of been in shock." Police said they see small acts of vandalism in the area from time to time, but they have not seen anything so severe, or with such a clear political message, in recent years. "This seems to be an isolated event," Cmdr. Andy Solberg said. Investigators said they are searching for the vandals but don't have many leads. Witnesses said they saw two men smash up the seven-foot-tall SUV early Monday and then run off. Now, as Groves contemplates what to do with the remains of his $38,000 Hummer, he has had to deal with a number of people who have driven by the crime scene and glared at him in smug satisfaction. "I'd say one in five people who come by have that 'you-got-what-you-deserve' look," said his friend Andy Sexton. Neighbor Lucille Liem, who owns a Prius hybrid, said that a common sentiment in the neighborhood is that large vehicles such as the Hummer are impractical and a strain on the Earth. "The neighborhood in general is very concerned with the environment," said Liem, whose Prius gets about 48 miles a gallon compared with the Hummer's 14 miles a gallon. "It's more liberal leaning. It's ridiculous to be driving a Hummer." Liem quickly added that she does not condone violence. - --- Information from: The Washington Post, http://www.washingtonpost.com The Associated Press ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:16:15 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Is the Prius really "green"? On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Darren K. Page wrote: # The fanatics should get more facts... http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188 Darren, that article is too good not to share... seems that Microsoft isn't the only one claiming "green" when they're anything but: (see: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf ) excellent analysis: $3.25/mi for the Prius and $1.95/mi for the hummer! included below selected extract... (read the entire article...) http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188 ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- March 7, 2007 Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage By Chris Demorro Staff Writer The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate b^Xgreen carb^Y is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer. Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius. The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right? You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Priusb^Ys EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs. However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldnb^Yt be writing this article. It gets much worse. ... read the entire article to see the damage caused by the materials to make the battery... ... Wait, I havenb^Yt even got to the best part yet. When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Priusb^Ys arch nemesis. Through a study by CNW Marketing called b^\Dust to Dust,b^] the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid. The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it. So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot. One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses. ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2914 **************************