From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jun 25 09:48:06 2008 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, June 25 2008 Volume 01 : Number 3106 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question RE: fsj: RE: weight info RE: fsj: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question RE: fsj: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question RE: fsj: weight info RE: fsj: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question RE: fsj: weight info Re: fsj: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:57:02 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question the issue isn't lubricity, it's the fact that some o-rings and seals are attacked by either the alcholol or the methanol. if vitron seals are used they're fine... went through this with my benz... once the original seals / o-rings started leaking and were replaced all was fine... the flex fuel vehicles simply have compatible seals and o-rings... the other issue with ethanol is it tends to attract water which attracts rust which isn't something that makes pumps happy... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Tesar Landon wrote: # There must be a solution for this, as Brazil is using ethanol # extensively... # # - L # # -----Original Message----- # From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Jim # Blair # Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:46 AM # To: xj-at-digest.net # Subject: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question # # Alcohol is indeed destroying fuel pumps because of it's low lubricity. # (mechanical as well as electrical pumps) # # _________________________________________________________________ # Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays # you # back! # http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earnca # shbac # k # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:57:27 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: RE: weight info Nope. The box is too far gone to make a good trailer out of (you have to get homebuilts inspected now before you can get a plate) The axles are coming off (just easier to load the truck on with it rolling) The rear is J20 and going into the '83 J10 long box I have (258/AW4/NP208 that's almost done) and the front is on the for sale pile if Brian doesn't need it for his '68 IH Travelall (steering is squirrelly in that rig due to sloppy front end and GM inspired steering system) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: RE: weight info aren't you going to turn that thing into a trailer? what about the axles? :) _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i^Rm Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:59:21 +0000 From: michel balea Subject: RE: fsj: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question If lubricity is an issue, a little 2 stroke motor oil in the gas will fix it.... not good for the air.... Michel > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:57:02 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: xj-at-digest.net > CC: diesel-benz-at-digest.net; fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question > > the issue isn't lubricity, it's the fact that some o-rings > and seals are attacked by either the alcholol or the methanol. > if vitron seals are used they're fine... went through this > with my benz... once the original seals / o-rings started > leaking and were replaced all was fine... the flex fuel > vehicles simply have compatible seals and o-rings... > > the other issue with ethanol is it tends to attract water > which attracts rust which isn't something that makes pumps happy... > > john > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ > SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Tesar Landon wrote: > > # There must be a solution for this, as Brazil is using ethanol > # extensively... > # > # - L > # > # -----Original Message----- > # From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Jim > # Blair > # Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:46 AM > # To: xj-at-digest.net > # Subject: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question > # > # Alcohol is indeed destroying fuel pumps because of it's low lubricity. > # (mechanical as well as electrical pumps) > # > # _________________________________________________________________ > # Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays > # you > # back! > # http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earnca > # shbac > # k > # _________________________________________________________________ The i^Rm Talkathon starts 6/24/08. For now, give amongst yourselves. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnMore_GiveAmongst ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:02:27 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question What I am seeing in comebacks is the fuel pump bearings are seized. They have no orings in them and rely on the fuel to cool and lube. Viton Orings were used from -at-'90 up in XJs yet they are springing leaks at an alarming rate over the past couple years (I fear a MAJOR carbque summer is coming! Already saw 4 on fire on the side of the highway just between Lynnwood and Bellevue) Adding some lube to the fuel seems to help. (be careful not to use anything with lead in it like 2 stroke oil or you can kill the O2 sensor in injected AND Carter BBD 6 cyl rigs) Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:57:02 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: xj-at-digest.net > CC: diesel-benz-at-digest.net; fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question > > the issue isn't lubricity, it's the fact that some o-rings > and seals are attacked by either the alcholol or the methanol. > if vitron seals are used they're fine... went through this > with my benz... once the original seals / o-rings started > leaking and were replaced all was fine... the flex fuel > vehicles simply have compatible seals and o-rings... > > the other issue with ethanol is it tends to attract water > which attracts rust which isn't something that makes pumps happy... > > john > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ > SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Tesar Landon wrote: > > # There must be a solution for this, as Brazil is using ethanol > # extensively... > # > # - L > # > # -----Original Message----- > # From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Jim > # Blair > # Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:46 AM > # To: xj-at-digest.net > # Subject: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question > # > # Alcohol is indeed destroying fuel pumps because of it's low lubricity. > # (mechanical as well as electrical pumps) > # > # _________________________________________________________________ > # Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays > # you > # back! > # http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earnca > # shbac > # k > # _________________________________________________________________ The i^Rm Talkathon starts 6/24/08. For now, give amongst yourselves. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnMore_GiveAmongst ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:04:17 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: weight info pretty much ANY Jeep made after '95 has TOO much plastic and gizmos in it for it's own good! Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:54:56 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com > CC: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: RE: fsj: weight info > > http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/jeep-model-codes.html > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ > SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, michel balea wrote: > > # > # > # Thank you, too many 2 letter words to remember for my brain. > # > # M > # > # > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:28:11 -0700 > # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > # > To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com > # > Subject: RE: fsj: weight info > # > > # > > # > WJ is the best. > # > > # > zj has poor suspension, poor > # > fuel system and bad transmissiona, > # > and they're ugly too. > # > > # > :) > # > > # > ----- > # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # > http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ > # > SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL > # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > > # > > # > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, michel balea wrote: > # > > # > # > # > # > # > # This is the funny part about US and euro specs... the GVWR (in the US) and the real weight (F) are in in the specs sheets, but not both.... I learn from our FSJ sites, that the real weight is about 4700-4800 lbs.... last month I had the 74 on the scales: a bit under 4600lbs (No A/C, so skid plates... the bare model) > # > # > # > # And now perusing thru sites.... learnt that the ZJ is about 1000lbs lighter. > # > # > # > # And again... what is the best GC, the ZJ or the WJ..... too many acronyms. Which one do you have again? > # > # > # > # Michel > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:55:49 -0700 > # > # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > # > # > To: > # > # > Subject: fsj: weight info > # > # > > # > # > was looking up how much a yard of gravel weighed and found this website: > # > # > > # > # > http://www.reade.com/Particle_Briefings/spec_gra2.html > # > # > > # > # > Density of gravel > # > # > > # > # > A cubic foot of dry, loose gravel with 1/4" to 2" stones is 105 pounds per cubic foot. > # > # > So, a cubic yard is that times 27, or 2835 lb. (There are 27 cubic feet in a cubic yard.) > # > # > > # > # > So, when I haul two yards of gravel in my J10 hydraulic dump trailer that weighs > # > # > 2,000lbs empty, I'm hauling 7,760 lbs... either behind my '91 Grand Wagoneer or > # > # > '99 Grand Cherokee... the GW weighs about 5,600lbs... the GC about 3,950. No > # > # > wonder the GC groans and creaks coming down the driveway... > # > # > > # > # > let's see... 5,600+7,760=13,270lbs or over 6.6 tons... I don't think I want > # > # > to drive very far with that kind of weight... > # > # > > # > # > I think I need to fix my surge brake controller. :) > # > # > > # > # > that raccoon I hit with just the grand wagoneer didn't like the 5,600lbs much, > # > # > first tire made a bit of jolt, second tire was barely a ripple... > # > # > > # > # > what is amazing is that the grand wagoneer actually got 24 mpg on the freeway... > # > # > got to love those Diesels. :) > # > # > > # > # > ----- > # > # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # > # > http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ > # > # > SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL > # > # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > # > # > # _________________________________________________________________ > # > # The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i'm Talkathon. > # > # http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving > # > # _________________________________________________________________ > # Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. > # http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_ Refresh_messenger_062008 _________________________________________________________________ Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_ Refresh_messenger_062008 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:38:47 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question oil in the gas could cause more problems than it would solve... there are additives for fuel that would be better... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, michel balea wrote: # # # If lubricity is an issue, a little 2 stroke motor oil in the gas will fix it.... not good for the air.... # # Michel # # > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:57:02 -0700 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: xj-at-digest.net # > CC: diesel-benz-at-digest.net; fsj-at-digest.net # > Subject: fsj: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question # > # > the issue isn't lubricity, it's the fact that some o-rings # > and seals are attacked by either the alcholol or the methanol. # > if vitron seals are used they're fine... went through this # > with my benz... once the original seals / o-rings started # > leaking and were replaced all was fine... the flex fuel # > vehicles simply have compatible seals and o-rings... # > # > the other issue with ethanol is it tends to attract water # > which attracts rust which isn't something that makes pumps happy... # > # > john # > # > ----- # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ # > SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL # > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # > # > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Tesar Landon wrote: # > # > # There must be a solution for this, as Brazil is using ethanol # > # extensively... # > # # > # - L # > # # > # -----Original Message----- # > # From: owner-xj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-xj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of Jim # > # Blair # > # Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:46 AM # > # To: xj-at-digest.net # > # Subject: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question # > # # > # Alcohol is indeed destroying fuel pumps because of it's low lubricity. # > # (mechanical as well as electrical pumps) # > # # > # _________________________________________________________________ # > # Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays # > # you # > # back! # > # http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earnca # > # shbac # > # k # > # # # _________________________________________________________________ # The i'm Talkathon starts 6/24/08. For now, give amongst yourselves. # http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnMore_GiveAmongst ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:39:59 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: weight info they don't do well in fender benders either... they tend to fold up pretty easily... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Jim Blair wrote: # pretty much ANY Jeep made after '95 has TOO much plastic and gizmos in it for it's own good! # # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 # # # > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:54:56 -0700 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com # > CC: fsj-at-digest.net # > Subject: RE: fsj: weight info # > # > http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/jeep-model-codes.html # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ # > SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # > # > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, michel balea wrote: # > # > # # > # # > # Thank you, too many 2 letter words to remember for my brain. # > # # > # M # > # # > # > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:28:11 -0700 # > # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > # > To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com # > # > Subject: RE: fsj: weight info # > # > # > # > # > # > WJ is the best. # > # > # > # > zj has poor suspension, poor # > # > fuel system and bad transmissiona, # > # > and they're ugly too. # > # > # > # > :) # > # > # > # > ----- # > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > # > http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ # > # > SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL # > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # > # > # > # > # > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, michel balea wrote: # > # > # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # This is the funny part about US and euro specs... the GVWR (in the US) and the real weight (F) are in in the specs sheets, but not both.... I learn from our FSJ sites, that the real weight is about 4700-4800 lbs.... last month I had the 74 on the scales: a bit under 4600lbs (No A/C, so skid plates... the bare model) # > # > # # > # > # And now perusing thru sites.... learnt that the ZJ is about 1000lbs lighter. # > # > # # > # > # And again... what is the best GC, the ZJ or the WJ..... too many acronyms. Which one do you have again? # > # > # # > # > # Michel # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:55:49 -0700 # > # > # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > # > # > To: # > # > # > Subject: fsj: weight info # > # > # > # > # > # > was looking up how much a yard of gravel weighed and found this website: # > # > # > # > # > # > http://www.reade.com/Particle_Briefings/spec_gra2.html # > # > # > # > # > # > Density of gravel # > # > # > # > # > # > A cubic foot of dry, loose gravel with 1/4" to 2" stones is 105 pounds per cubic foot. # > # > # > So, a cubic yard is that times 27, or 2835 lb. (There are 27 cubic feet in a cubic yard.) # > # > # > # > # > # > So, when I haul two yards of gravel in my J10 hydraulic dump trailer that weighs # > # > # > 2,000lbs empty, I'm hauling 7,760 lbs... either behind my '91 Grand Wagoneer or # > # > # > '99 Grand Cherokee... the GW weighs about 5,600lbs... the GC about 3,950. No # > # > # > wonder the GC groans and creaks coming down the driveway... # > # > # > # > # > # > let's see... 5,600+7,760=13,270lbs or over 6.6 tons... I don't think I want # > # > # > to drive very far with that kind of weight... # > # > # > # > # > # > I think I need to fix my surge brake controller. :) # > # > # > # > # > # > that raccoon I hit with just the grand wagoneer didn't like the 5,600lbs much, # > # > # > first tire made a bit of jolt, second tire was barely a ripple... # > # > # > # > # > # > what is amazing is that the grand wagoneer actually got 24 mpg on the freeway... # > # > # > got to love those Diesels. :) # > # > # > # > # > # > ----- # > # > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > # > # > http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ # > # > # > SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL # > # > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # > # # > # > # _________________________________________________________________ # > # > # The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i'm Talkathon. # > # > # http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving # > # # > # _________________________________________________________________ # > # Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. # > # http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_062008 # # _________________________________________________________________ # Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. # http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_062008 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:44:25 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: RE: xj: Fuel Pump question john said: {- the issue isn't lubricity, it's the fact that some o-rings {- and seals are attacked by either the alcholol or the methanol. {- if vitron seals are used they're fine... went through this {- with my benz... once the original seals / o-rings started {- leaking and were replaced all was fine... the flex fuel {- vehicles simply have compatible seals and o-rings... Most modern vehicles (since the '80s, give or take?) should be ok. And my '74 never had a problem. (Note that I'm only using the standard 10% Ethanol, or E10, not the E85 / 85% Ethanol.) And of course no other vehicles I've had have had any trouble with E10, either. And we've had E10 in Iowa since... well, probably since I could drive, in the late '80s. Been using it pretty much full-time, at least while in Iowa since it's always available. Now some people _have_ found that the non-ethanol lower grade gas actually gets them better mileage, but that seems to vary with the vehicle. So, literally, YMMV. I've used it very rarely under the same conditions (i.e., not in hilly high-elevation places in CO), so I don't have much data for comparison there. {- the other issue with ethanol is it tends to attract water {- which attracts rust which isn't something that makes pumps happy... The main problem here is if you have years of bad crap in your tank, and the ethanol cleans it, so you get a lot of that crap going through your fuel pump and engine in a relatively short time. However, I've never had a problem personally, even when I first got the '74 and started putting that ethanol through it. Of course, it's possible the former owner(s) had already had it on ethanol for awhile, but that's old enough to have been designed for _regular_ gas (and I ain't talkin' "regular unleaded"!), and if any of my vehicles would have gunk in the tank, that would be it. Besides, if you're using a stock FSJ, the fuel pumps are cheap and easy to replace. If you want to try ethanol, go ahead. If you're worried about it cleaning your tank too much, just be sure to do it in nice weather and have a spare fuel pump on hand. I'm guessing it won't be an instantaneous, strand-you-on-the-side-of-the-road thing, but if you're going to try something that has the potential for requiring repairs, you might as well schedule it as best you can. :) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lightning... has just struck my brain. -- Smee - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3106 **************************