From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Sep 10 11:10:46 2008 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, September 10 2008 Volume 01 : Number 3167 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: electric motors fsj: three days in the mountains of BC and WA - 20.66 mpg fsj: VWs and Jeeps fsj: Snohomish - Kamloops - Salmon Arm - Leavenworth fsj: Re: electric motors RE: fsj: Re: electric motors RE: fsj: Re: electric motors fsj: Re: [WJ-Grand] Amsoil RE: fsj: Re: [WJ-Grand] Amsoil FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 20:53:05 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: electric motors giving more thought to the Diesel hybrid in my J10... the front axle is a 3.31 gear set the rear axle is 4.10. I have gears to make either the other... but I'm thinking that keeping it this way might work better for a Mercedes Diesel engine setup, 2wd, to the rear axle... the 4.10s with 235s should permit either the 2.5L or the 3.0L Turbo Diesels to push the 4,100 lb J10 around... and an electric motor might be happy directly connected to the 3.31 front axle... I need some info on the electric motors to see what they'll do rpm-wise, torque-wise, etc. I'm thinking I would use the electric motor in front wheel drive daily to and from work... would have to push 4,500 lbs over hill and dale up to about 45 mph about 10 miles one way. The Mercedes Diesel would be kept stock with 2wd Automatic transmission... mated to the Jeep rear axle 4.10 ratio... I would use it when the batteries were drained or I wanted to cruise a bit faster... also would want to set it up so that the electric motor and the Diesel could be syncronized for LOW speed 4x4 operation... maybe up to 30 mph or so... would be used to get me unstuck or started in snowy conditions... no transfer case would save weight and complexity. I think it's a viable concept, but once I have power band info for the chosen engine(s) I'll know if the gear ratios will work... I've priced out the Mercedes engines and transmissions and it seems within reach... first step is to get SuperDawg back on the road in 2wd and add the electric motor later... if I got really lucky I might be able to find a divorced transfer case and have things setup right off as a 4x4 and then adapte the electric motor to that setup... The electric motor will be direct drive, no transmission... would like it to be used for regenerative braking too... would charge the batteries and save wear and tear on brakes. Of course the J10 would have WJ leather seats. ;) and an XJ console... that combo has proven to work nicely in a Full Size Jeep... Back home from three days on the road... more on that later... need info on electric motors, or Mercedes transfer cases. :) or maybe someone willing to trade an Automatic 300GD for my '83 J10 Stepside and save me the trouble of building another Diesel powered rig. :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf http://wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 21:09:59 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: three days in the mountains of BC and WA - 20.66 mpg after 970 miles through British Columbia and Eastern Washingon, the Blazer with a 6.5L Diesel used 46.9 gallons of Diesel (and BioDiesel) at a cost of $179.90 (effective price for the Diesel was $3.83 - used 10 gallons of BioDiesel to reduce costs.) (which is good considering Petrol in BC was $1.39/liter or about $5.26/gal - Diesel was LESS at 1.33/liter where I tanked up (Kamloops, BC). And the US dollar is 3 cents stronger, so the $98.94 was actually less than that... :) BOTTOM LINE: 20.66 mpg - this is pretty decent considering we spent all three days in the mountains, going up and down, twisty windy two lane roads with lots of small towns... The 6.2L in the Grand Wagoneer would have gotten better mileage, but we would have had our internals vibrated to paralysis... the next conversion gets the GM (or whatever factory) mounts (which, btw, GM mounts went back east with Omega so the new owners can get that taken care of! The other recommended mod is the updated glow plug controller setup.) Overall, the Blazer wasn't bad, but it wasn't "great" either... the ride quality and quiet is superb, but it lacks a "light" feel to it and while it handles quite well, it doesn't let the pilot realize it's capabilities or encourage using them. I found myself driving it slower than any other vehicle I've owned, yet both my wife and I felt we were driving faster... I guess it'll keep us out of trouble... In other words while the 6.5L Diesel drivetrain is superb, but if someone came up and offered me money for this Blazer it would disappear quickly. At $3.83/gallon effective costs we could have driven the Grand Cherokee. :) well, not if we filled up in Canada, $1.39/liter for Petrol, $1.33 for Diesel... I'm doing a rethink on this Blazer thing... If I can fit a pair of WJ leather seats in my Mercedes 300D, I think the Blazer is history and the WJ will stick around for 4x4 and towing... ;) What was interesting is that Gas prices were fairly consistent in each area and across the province... We headed out for Jasper/Banff and Glacier, but once in Kamloops we figured out we really didn't want to drive even further north... so we headed east for Glacier (Revelstokes), but near Salmon Arm we realized it was hazy with rain predicted for the next day, and with no snow in the pass we decided to get a schnitzel and headed south down 97 to Leavenworth, WA. Saw some beautiful countryside, lakes, rivers, mountains... walked around the Wenachtee River in Leavenworth today... beautiful... glad to be back home. :) pictures: (don't have the 8th and 9th fully sorted yet... be there soon...) http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-07-trip-north-Snohomish-to-KamloopsBC/ALL.html http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-08-KamloopsBC-to-Leavenworth/ http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-08-KamloopsBC-to-Leavenworth/ALL.html http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-09-Leavenworth/ http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-09-Leavenworth/ALL.html john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf http://wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 23:02:20 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: fsj: VWs and Jeeps I was discussing my '79 DJ (Ice Cream/ex-postal Jeep) with someone and it's Audi power and how that related to VW and Porsche. He mentioned that it will probably prove to me that VWs are good vehicles. I related to him the following (which I share now with you too): I used to play with air-cooled VWs (I kept killing motors and gave up after 17 of them in 6 months in my '66 Van) and had 3 or 4 water cooled ones (including a diesel). First one was a carbed Rabbit that was sooo rust rotten that I was scared to drive it on the road, so I let my 2 oldest sons bomb around the back 40 until it started making funny noises, so I decided to take it out in a blaze of glory over a jump. Hit the jump 3 times and got a little air, then the 4th time the car broke off at the windshield and the motor/auto trans roared in a circle till it ran out of gas. Kids were like 'Do it again Dad! Do it again!' but alas, it was toast. _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together^Wat home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 23:12:25 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Snohomish - Kamloops - Salmon Arm - Leavenworth took a short drive through British Columbia... http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-07-trip-north-Snohomish-to-KamloopsBC/ALL.html http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-08-KamploopsBC-to-Leavenworth/ALL.html http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-09-Leavenworth/ALL.html (if you're on dialup view the directory instead of "ALL.html") a few highlights: http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-08-KamploopsBC-to-Leavenworth/DSC_0063.jpg http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-08-KamploopsBC-to-Leavenworth/DSC_0103.jpg http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-08-KamploopsBC-to-Leavenworth/DSC_0068.jpg http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-08-KamploopsBC-to-Leavenworth/P1060587.jpg http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-08-KamploopsBC-to-Leavenworth/DSC_0052.jpg http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-09-Leavenworth/DSC_0082.jpg http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-09-Leavenworth/DSC_0093.jpg http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-09-Leavenworth/DSC_0025.jpg http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-09-Leavenworth/DSC_0131.jpg http://wagoneers.com/fotos/2008/09-Sep-09-Leavenworth/DSC_0207.jpg ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf http://wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 06:53:01 -0400 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: fsj: Re: electric motors you'd also have to have a method of disengaging one system while the other system is operational. you don't want to drive the internals of that tranny by the rear wheels whilst trucking around on electrical power. Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" To: "full size jeep list" ; "diesel-benz list" ; "xj-list" ; ; Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:53 PM Subject: fsj: electric motors > giving more thought to the Diesel hybrid in my J10... > > the front axle is a 3.31 gear set > the rear axle is 4.10. I have gears to make either the other... but > I'm thinking that keeping it this way might work better for a Mercedes > Diesel engine setup, 2wd, to the rear axle... the 4.10s with 235s should > permit either the 2.5L or the 3.0L Turbo Diesels to push the 4,100 lb J10 > around... and an electric motor might be happy directly connected to the > 3.31 front axle... > > I need some info on the electric motors to see what they'll do rpm-wise, torque-wise, > etc. > > I'm thinking I would use the electric motor in front wheel drive > daily to and from work... > > would have to push 4,500 lbs over hill and dale up to about 45 mph about 10 miles one way. > > The Mercedes Diesel would be kept stock with 2wd Automatic transmission... mated to the > Jeep rear axle 4.10 ratio... I would use it when the batteries were drained > or I wanted to cruise a bit faster... > > also would want to set it up so that the electric motor and the Diesel could be syncronized > for LOW speed 4x4 operation... maybe up to 30 mph or so... would be used to get me > unstuck or started in snowy conditions... no transfer case would save weight and complexity. > > I think it's a viable concept, but once I have power band info for the chosen engine(s) > I'll know if the gear ratios will work... I've priced out the Mercedes engines and > transmissions and it seems within reach... first step is to get SuperDawg back on the > road in 2wd and add the electric motor later... if I got really lucky I might be > able to find a divorced transfer case and have things setup right off as a 4x4 and > then adapte the electric motor to that setup... > > The electric motor will be direct drive, no transmission... would like it to be used > for regenerative braking too... would charge the batteries and save wear and tear on > brakes. > > Of course the J10 would have WJ leather seats. ;) and an XJ console... that combo > has proven to work nicely in a Full Size Jeep... > > Back home from three days on the road... more on that later... > > need info on electric motors, or Mercedes transfer cases. :) > > or maybe someone willing to trade an Automatic 300GD for my '83 J10 Stepside > and save me the trouble of building another Diesel powered rig. :) > > john > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf > http://wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 10:03:56 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Re: electric motors NP208 will allow you to do that. If it's in 2wd, the front driveshaft is freewheeling. Part of why I was looking into doing that with mine, but lack of money and time has been keeping me from following through (especially since I'm working 12 hour days now 6 days a week) Having locking hubs on the rear axle (MUCH easier to do with full floaters) will enable you not to turn the other mass of axles and diff at the same time. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > From: proj96xj-at-bellsouth.net > To: john-at-wagoneers.com; fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: Re: electric motors > Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 06:53:01 -0400 > > you'd also have to have a method of disengaging one system while the other > system is operational. you don't want to drive the internals of that tranny > by the rear wheels whilst trucking around on electrical power. > > Neal A. Hoover > Project '76 J-10 > Project '96 XJ > http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj > _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ^S10 hidden secrets^T from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550 F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 10:29:22 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: Re: electric motors the idea is not to have a transfer case... straight 2wd mercedes engine/trans, with an electric motor on the front axle... the transmission could free wheel in neutral... the mercedes transmissions have a rear pump so no damage would result in motoring around at 30 to 45 mph in electric mode... would be some parasitic losses, but not that much more than moving 4,500lbs of FSJ and driver about. if I go with a transfer case I'll scratch the idea of the electric motor... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf http://wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Jim Blair wrote: # NP208 will allow you to do that. If it's in 2wd, the front driveshaft is # freewheeling. Part of why I was looking into doing that with mine, but lack of # money and time has been keeping me from following through (especially since # I'm working 12 hour days now 6 days a week) Having locking hubs on the rear # axle (MUCH easier to do with full floaters) will enable you not to turn the # other mass of axles and diff at the same time. # # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 # # # > From: proj96xj-at-bellsouth.net # > To: john-at-wagoneers.com; fsj-at-digest.net # > Subject: fsj: Re: electric motors # > Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 06:53:01 -0400 # > # > you'd also have to have a method of disengaging one system while the other # > system is operational. you don't want to drive the internals of that # tranny # > by the rear wheels whilst trucking around on electrical power. # > # > Neal A. Hoover # > Project '76 J-10 # > Project '96 XJ # > http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj # > # # # _________________________________________________________________ # Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ^S10 hidden secrets^T from Jamie. # http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550 # F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 10:43:24 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [WJ-Grand] Amsoil On Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Victor Jorge (vjorge) wrote: # Hi John et al, # I've been contemplating changing over to Amsoil, I have always heard # good/great things about it, but I am fearing what I've experienced long # time ago when I went to Mobil 1 Synthetic. I slowly began developing oil # leaks to the point that I went back to dino oil and the leaks slowly # stopped. I have this theory that Synthetic is so thin, that it will # permeate through the gaskets, if not locked down tight, and it will # leak. # # I have a WJ with 90k on the clock, not a drip of engine oil # anywhere, and fear if I went to Amsoil synthetic that I would start # seeping oil everywhere which is something I don't want to deal with. # # # Thanks in advance, # Victor # Victor, et al. I've been an amsoil dealer since 1983. If you have a leak now, you'll have a leak after switching... the thing is not that synthetic is thinner, it clings, so you see where it's leaking, dino oil goes away, runs off... amsoil has had seal swelling agents in their formulation for a long, long time... they started out in 1973... they've got it figured out. I have one mechanic friend that looked at the Series 2000 oil when it first came out... looked a bit like ATF... he thought it was too thin and that I wouldn't have any oil pressure in my 4.0L... he was wrong, I had MORE oil pressure than before, and better mileage too! I have converted every vehicle I've kept for more than a month :) to amsoil. several over 200,000 miles even, without trouble. my wj went from 18 mpg to almost 21 by switching over... my K1500 Blazer 6.5L Diesel just got 20.66 mpg in the mountains after switching to amsoil and a few other mods, best before was about 17 to 18 on a good day... hard to tell usually on a Diesel because I find I have more usuable power, and drive quicker... losing the edge, but my 300D typically gets around 28 to 30 mpg in town... epa rating is around 27 or so. so, as the eagles say, "get over it". or as nike says, just do it. I promise you that amsoil will not "seep" through the seals. You have to remember that when mobilone was developed initially it was synthesized hydrocarbons... in other words they took dino oil and made it all the same molecular size... they didn't do anything to extend the drain interval like amsoil does, and I'm thinking they didn't add seal swelling agents to their mix, so they would have leaked if you had places to leak... I've got amsoil in my '91 300D, over 250,000 miles, no puddles underneath, never have to add oil.... oil changes have been 17,000, and 24,000! Oil analysis indicates that the oil was still good when I pulled it out. I've got amsoil in my '99 WJ, have had since we bought it 3 years ago, it's been to South Dakota twice, once in 100+ temps and once in snow... no leaks, and it has over 153,000 miles on it... had 130,000 when we got it.. I've got amsoil in my '94 Blazer with the 6.5L. Just drove it about 1,000 miles up in BC in the mountains... no oil consumption and 20.66 mpg. I've even got amsoil in my lawnmower... :) and chainsaw... so, don't worry... but one thing you may need to do is change the filter after a few thousand miles, the synthetic will tend to clean up any junk in there, especially if you've been using some of those nasty dino oils... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf http://wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:00:05 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Re: [WJ-Grand] Amsoil Originally Mobil 1 was a true synthetic, but after Castrol came out with the modified Hydrocarbon from natural base oil, there was a lawsuit about the definition of synthetic. Mobil lost (there was a huge writeup on the lawsuit online back in '99) and they switched to the same modified oil base, which is why the cost of synthetic oil dropped so drastically in the past few years. Amsoil is one of only a handful of true synthetic oils still being produced. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 10:43:24 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com > Subject: fsj: Re: [WJ-Grand] Amsoil > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Victor Jorge (vjorge) wrote: > > # Hi John et al, > # I've been contemplating changing over to Amsoil, I have always heard > # good/great things about it, but I am fearing what I've experienced long > # time ago when I went to Mobil 1 Synthetic. I slowly began developing oil > # leaks to the point that I went back to dino oil and the leaks slowly > # stopped. I have this theory that Synthetic is so thin, that it will > # permeate through the gaskets, if not locked down tight, and it will > # leak. > # > # I have a WJ with 90k on the clock, not a drip of engine oil > # anywhere, and fear if I went to Amsoil synthetic that I would start > # seeping oil everywhere which is something I don't want to deal with. > # > # > # Thanks in advance, > # Victor > # > > Victor, et al. > > I've been an amsoil dealer since 1983. If you have a leak now, you'll > have a leak after switching... the thing is not that synthetic is thinner, it clings, > so you see where it's leaking, dino oil goes away, runs off... > > amsoil has had seal swelling agents in their formulation for a long, long > time... they started out in 1973... they've got it figured out. > > I have one mechanic friend that looked at the Series 2000 oil when it > first came out... looked a bit like ATF... he thought it was too thin > and that I wouldn't have any oil pressure in my 4.0L... he was wrong, I > had MORE oil pressure than before, and better mileage too! > > I have converted every vehicle I've kept for more than a month :) to > amsoil. several over 200,000 miles even, without trouble. > > my wj went from 18 mpg to almost 21 by switching over... > > my K1500 Blazer 6.5L Diesel just got 20.66 mpg in the mountains > after switching to amsoil and a few other mods, best before was > about 17 to 18 on a good day... > > hard to tell usually on a Diesel because I find I have more usuable > power, and drive quicker... losing the edge, but my 300D typically > gets around 28 to 30 mpg in town... epa rating is around 27 or so. > > so, as the eagles say, "get over it". or as nike says, just do it. > > I promise you that amsoil will not "seep" through the seals. > > You have to remember that when mobilone was developed initially > it was synthesized hydrocarbons... in other words they took dino > oil and made it all the same molecular size... they didn't do anything > to extend the drain interval like amsoil does, and I'm thinking they > didn't add seal swelling agents to their mix, so they would have leaked > if you had places to leak... > > I've got amsoil in my '91 300D, over 250,000 miles, no puddles underneath, > never have to add oil.... oil changes have been 17,000, and 24,000! Oil > analysis indicates that the oil was still good when I pulled it out. > > I've got amsoil in my '99 WJ, have had since we bought it 3 years ago, > it's been to South Dakota twice, once in 100+ temps and once in snow... > no leaks, and it has over 153,000 miles on it... had 130,000 when we > got it.. > > I've got amsoil in my '94 Blazer with the 6.5L. Just drove it > about 1,000 miles up in BC in the mountains... no oil consumption > and 20.66 mpg. > > I've even got amsoil in my lawnmower... :) and chainsaw... > > so, don't worry... but one thing you may need to do is change the filter > after a few thousand miles, the synthetic will tend to clean up any > junk in there, especially if you've been using some of those nasty dino oils... > > john > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf > http://wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3167 **************************