From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Nov 6 10:25:51 2008 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, November 6 2008 Volume 01 : Number 3193 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: Fw: Re: [db] fuel costs and projects fsj: fuel costs and misadventures with grease... fsj: Re: [db] fuel cost WVO Biodiesel FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:09:29 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Fw: Re: [db] fuel costs and projects On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, Alec Cordova wrote: # You should factor more into that reevaluation than just materials and # labor costs. # There is some value in not using conventional petroleum diesel. The # question is, just how much is that worth to you? Will you only use # veggie oil or biodiesel if it is cheaper than conventional? # The choice is certainly a lot easier if it also saves one money. # I honestly don't know what my threshold would be, but I'm currently # diesel-less and don't need to decide. ;-) # Alec # On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:17 AM, john wrote: # > our biodiesel costs have jumped to $1.75 because of chemical price increases... # > I'm getting tired of sloshing wvo around... if fuel prices came down that low # > I might just go back on the pump... ;) guess I need to do the math on this one... # > right now regular is under $2.49, Diesel is still at $3.19 ############################################################################## Yep, running biodiesel has additional costs on the vehicle as well... ...one must replace seals and rubber lines with Viton. if you don't you'll have leaks and possible stalling issues... this was a big issue on my 6.2L Grand Wagoneer... then you have to deal with air in the system for a while... :( If you're going to go BioDiesel, you need to build it right first or face frustration... of course how many know about these issues before they start? :) Then there is the time running around chasing waste veggie oil with folks that don't speak english... korean or spanish typically... the folks that speak english natively prove to be the most unreliable as sources... they will just not call or give the oil to someone else... or they change management and quit giving it away or close down... lost good sources that way... Even if you're willing to pay for it there is always the issue that they may sign up with a commercial outfit for regular pickups and less hassles. I always try to provide prompt service, but there are times when I'm out of town and have to send a friend or my son... if I don't respond to their call I risk losing the oil... Then there is the time spent moving it about to get it processed... since I've actually burned chicken noodle soup, I'm not going to do my own processing of biodiesel... and filtering wvo is a messy proposition and involves a lot of effort to make it work in the vehicle... have found that the seals at a minimum need to be replaced... hoses seem to be ok... but then there is another problem, one can't blend wvo with biodiesel... only Diesel... so one needs a separate tank for straight WVO, that has to be heated... so one must decide if they're going to run BioDiesel or WVO/blended Diesel... you can't do both in the same tank. Building a second heated tank and fuel solenoid setup isn't that bad... so far I've found tanks for less than $200, the solenoid is hovering around $75, the heaters are the variable at this point... do I use Jason's design and risk springing a leak... do I buy an electrical heater and pump? and then where do I mount the tank? Inside? that could be messy... outside, then I have to deal with water contamination... and mounting... so I'm looking at about $500 in parts and at least a full day or weekend fabricating and installing, while I love doing stuff like this I need to step back and do a flippin' reality check... how much pump Diesel could I buy for $500? And figuring that I plan on replacing the Blazer with a Jeep at my earliest opportunity... should I even bother? :) ...and of course I have to deal with the issue of filtering the WVO... preferrably before putting it in the vehicle... of course I will add filters to both tanks in addition to the main stock filters... I've clogged filters before running wvo and used oil... not fun... it's also embarrassing and can be expensive if you're out on the road... Filtering WVO is just not a lot of fun... you can't ever get the buckets clean, and any spillage turns into the nastiest, slimiest, goo imaginable in our climate... You learn to walk very carefully so your legs remain under you... and you watch where you walk afterwards... going in the house wearing those shows may result in a death sentence, or a least a very serious scolding and additional labor. :) Rather than building a separate tank I could just go back to filtering my WVO and blending about 25 to 30%... need to do the math... (will do that later). So, why do we do it? I mean why do reasonably successful reasonably paid folks do the bioDiesel or WVO thing? If you figure our time it doesn't make sense... at all. sense or cents. ;) But there is something rewarding about being able to fill up your tank in your own driveway, or a rest stop or where ever... and of course there is the "green" aspect of using a waste product that burns cleaner too. And the smell of the exhaust is great. And it's about independence... not being dependent on a potentially unreliable and expensive source is also quite pleasing... if it weren't for the fact that we were dependent on the chemicals that appear to have the same issues as pump products in costs... :( So, do I build my J10 with an auxillary tank and a Diesel? Need to think about this... I'm not eager to go with a gas engine. It would be a lot easier, but I prefer Diesel. If I were going to go with a gas Jeep I'd prefer an XJ or a WJ... but there will always be a part of me that will want to convert it to a Diesel... I've been so afflicted by the Diesel bug since 1983. :) So, the question is... WVO or BioDiesel? stay tuned... firing up Excel... ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf http://wagoneers.com http://gunbanobama.com/ http://freegift.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 16:13:31 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: fuel costs and misadventures with grease... doing some number crunching and thinking about what I want to drive and do with my time... ...don't want to spend time hauling WVO around, and can't say I really like driving a Chevy... ;) assumptions: 1,200 miles per month, gas pump price $2.47, Diesel pump price $3.19, labor to handle/process/move wvo & biodiesel $30/hr. to MOVE WVO around for BioDiesel is about $1.98/gallon. - total biod costs: $3.73 to move wvo around AND FILTER it, is about $3.00/gallon. insurance is about $42/vehicle/month, give or take... using in town mileage - mileage estimates LOW and labor costs HIGH... ...your mileage may vary... (YMMV) so, that stated: WJ - 15 mpg in town - cost / month: $197.40 K1500 - 15 mpg in town: - PUMP: $255.20 - BIOD: $298.40 ($140 straight costs + est. labor) - WVO/blend: $251.40 (can not use biodiesel) - WVO w/aux tank: $240.00 (still need the tank and setup, add $1k) for $15/mo savings it's not worth spending $1k on a 2nd tank, nor is it cost effective, considering my time, to do BioDiesel... when it was free, or even $1.30/gallon it made sense... BENZ - 29 mpg in town - cost / month: - PUMP: $132.00 - BIOD: $154.34 ($72.41 straight cost + est. labor) - WVO/blend: $130.03 (can not use biodiesel) - WVO w/aux tank: $124.14 (still need the tank and setup, add $1k) Coming to the somewhat abrubt conclusion that biodiesel and/or blending wvo isn't worth the trouble, although it does feel good... (and smells good...) the math just doesn't work out when one considers the TIME, the mess and the extra incidentals... over $4/gallon it starts making some sense, but considering the effort and TIME, not that much... I've got empty buckets and cubies and barrels all over my yard, my trailer has one empty and one full barrel of oil in it... and an empty bucket... and a barrel lift attached... making it hard to use for topsoil (which I was told is something we need for the yard... ;) Of course, the time issue isn't that big of a deal, and we often combine the adventure, so it's not just about the time... question is, is it worth all the mess and chasing around to save $75 to $125/month in direct costs? Selling the K1500 would immediately save about $100 / month in fuel and insurance... and give me the money to get a nice Diesel engine driveline for my J10... :) We'd use the WJ for trips and the Benz for commuting/local stuff like we did before. That leaves me without a 4x4 Diesel, but having had one I can say I'll be ok... until I can get my J10 working again. ;) I still plan to build up my J10 as a Diesel, and building it from the ground up for WVO makes sense... will have time to acquire free parts and time to engineer it. Not insuring it or driving it for months or a year also save money... The WJ is more than capable of pulling the trailer... if gas prices go up again we could just not drive as much... freedom isn't free, right? ;) Eventually the Mercedes will die and perhaps the J10 will be ready... I should have plenty of time, the Benz "only" has 254,000 miles on it and not a single issue... oil change every 15 to 20 thousand miles, front brake pads every 20 to 30 thousand miles and a tank of go-juice once every 500 or 600 miles and it's happy... So for now, the K1500 will be going up for sale, possibly along with the Panel... Will only make one trip up north a month to move barrels of WVO around... will cut way back on my bioDiesel use... Oh the insanity of it all... :) ...have excellent sources of WVO and the equipment to move it and the chemical costs just made it non-cost effective... guess I'll start filtering and stockpiling like I used to... or selling my WVO if I can find a buyer... of course the supply of wvo has decreased with the costs of cooking oil too... guess everyone is cutting back. :) I'll put the spreadsheet up on my server if anyone is interested in checking my math... :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE fuel: use synthetics: http://www.AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 SAVE power: use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf http://wagoneers.com http://gunbanobama.com/ http://freegift.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 10:24:50 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [db] fuel cost WVO Biodiesel Wiard, Yes, all good points. Many of those issues are the same as with BioDiesel though... lines, filters and injectors... Heated WVO should be fine if filtered... of course there is the issue of acidity... so it might be better to do BioDiesel on that basis alone... I'm not into playing with chemicals so testing my oil is not something I plan to do. And yes, I've been stranded on the side of the road with a clogged filter, made it over a mountain pass at 5mph with another clogged filter... neither were fun... that's why I have filters for each tank in addition to the original stock primary and secondary... :) straight from the department of redundancy department. :) I may have found a good candidate for a SMALL 4x4 Diesel project... found a sickly Geo Tracker for cheap... it still runs, interior is trashed, etc. don't know much about them except I've got a friend who is a hard core wheeler, president of two 4x4 clubs who has one... that in itself says something to me. ;) I looked at a couple of Jeep Cherokee's yesterday, one with a bad trans, thinking I'd put the 4.0L into my J10 and then put a Mercedes Diesel into the Cherokee... but after looking at the pre-97 xj's and being mislead on on Cherokee that was supposed to be nice and it turned out to be not nice and a ZJ I figured that idea wasn't going to work. The older style XJs have a lot of plastic... the newer style does too but has a more comfortable feel... if you can find one with good leather seats. I had found a nice '99 XJ but wouldn't pay what the guy was asking for it and kicking myself now. But then again, it wasn't a Diesel. Current direction is to sell the Blazer and get my J10 running, may just find a stock engine for it... but I still want to build a Diesel 4x4, preferrably an economical one... if it gets good enough mileage I won't need to burn WVO... can do the BioDiesel thing with less consumption. The J10 is unlikely to be economical, even if I can find a nice Cummins 4BT or 6at.2. A Mercedes Diesel in the J10 would be fine in town, could probably make it work ok, but then it wouldn't do well on the freeway... my wife hates my J10... so the Tracker if fixed up nicely would make more sense... it could actually haul a passenger... ;) We'll see, I've driven Samarui's but not a tracker... for daily driving it might be fine, if not, well, shouldn't be a problem to sell... ;) Another option would be to find a nice WJ limited with a bad engine, seems that there are a lot out there with valve train issues, don't understand it... that 4.7L V8 is a sweet motor... have had 2 that were flawless... remember looking at one owned by a jeep mechanic and he pointed out several issues that he had fixed on his... guess I've been lucky or not had troubles because I always run amsoil synthetics... the 230 I-6's from the early '60s had issues because of dino oil, wonder if the SOHC setup on the 4.7 isn't getting enough lubrication because of dino oil. They are very high revving engines that spool up quickly, without good oil valve train wear could be a big issue. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com/fotos/fotomeister/ SAVE power, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE yourself: http://freegift.com SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 6 Nov 2008, Wiard Pless wrote: # John, # a consideration should also the trouble you could encounter with veg. diesel # fuel: # # leaking fuel line, clocked fuel line and filters esp. during winter months # leaking injector pump and wear on injectors longevity of engine # and if you get stranded at the road side away from home # sure , would like to save money as well but but may be it is time to consider # a smaller car with better fuel economy. # Wiard # ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3193 **************************