From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Mar 7 17:04:00 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Sunday, March 8 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3281 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case RE: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case RE: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case fsj: RE: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 15:58:22 -0800 (PST) From: diesel john Subject: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case 308??? huh? ok, I messed up my response too, so let me ask the question again: It must have 2wd High... and only 4wd LOW ... right? otherwise how could I do 60 mph? or even cruise at 45 mph... I think I'm hoping this is so... if it works in 4wd but only LOW range I can live with that... if it has 2wd HIGH, that would make sense since an np208 or 198 would have a straight output out the back... and when engaged in 4wd only LOW range... that'll get me out of the driveway and away from a stoplight if needed... once moving 4wd on a short wheelbase can get ya in trouble anyway... take your foot off the go pedal too quickly and you get the scenic tour of the area. :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, Scott Hyde wrote: # You have a NP198 in your tug. It is a 208 with no high range. You can modify it or just use a Jeep 208. I used one 308 from behind a T176 from a J10. It worked just fine. # Scott A. Hyde # NRA Life Member # NRA Certified Rifle and Pistol Instructor # USPSA Member # # # # # ________________________________ # From: diesel john # Sent: Friday, March 6, 2009 4:24:55 PM # Subject: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case # # # just got a call from the shop... the np208(or whatever it really is) # only has LOW range... either 2wd or 4wd low.. no 4wd high... # # does anyone know if the spline count is the same as other FSJ apps? # # in other words, could I take the NP208 mated to my T18 in the '80 J10 that # is sitting down in Centralia and use it on the back of the TF727 in the cj-10a? # # If not, I'll have to swap the input gear and guts over... not a big deal # or all that expensive to have done... # # otherwise, it's ready to go out of the shop... cost a bit more than expected, # but still worth it... # # john # # ----- # ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://AMSOIL. com/redirect. cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # http://johnmeister. com http://wagoneers. com http://fotomeister. us # ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - # # # # # # # # [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] # # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 16:33:21 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case Just ran the numbers for the 4.88 with the low range of 2.61... I recall reading in the Military manual that these things had a top speed of about 25 mph... THAT matches what I'm seeing in the numbers if the Xfr case was locked in LOW. So that must mean that the NP198 is a LOW range ONLY when in "4wd"... since it has a working front yoke, but no driveshaft, and apparently no 4wd HIGH capability, but obviously has 2 wd HIGH range, that appears to be the situation... maybe someone will confirm this... or I will be able to by tomorrow... :) This makes sense to me... if I want 4wd High I'll have to swap in my NP208. :) I have the spreadsheet and a pdf of these calculations at: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/1986-CJ10A/AXLES_ENGINE_INFO/Axle-Plan-cj10a-NON-TURBO.pdf http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/1986-CJ10A/AXLES_ENGINE_INFO/Axle-Plan-cj10a-NON-TURBO.xls 31" tires 31" tires 235's Gears: 4.88 12.74 3.31 Tires: 30.35 30.35 28.88 tach mph mph mph 1000 18.50 7.09 25.96 1100 20.35 7.80 28.55 1200 22.20 8.51 31.15 1300 24.05 9.22 33.74 1400 25.90 9.92 36.34 1450 26.83 10.28 37.64 1500 27.75 10.63 38.94 1550 28.68 10.99 40.23 1600 29.60 11.34 41.53 1650 30.53 11.70 42.83 1700 31.45 12.05 44.13 1750 32.38 12.41 45.42 1800 33.30 12.76 46.72 1850 34.23 13.11 48.02 1900 35.15 13.47 49.32 1950 36.08 13.82 50.62 2000 37.00 14.18 51.91 2050 37.93 14.53 53.21 2100 38.85 14.89 54.51 2150 39.78 15.24 55.81 2200 40.70 15.60 57.11 2250 41.63 15.95 58.40 2300 42.56 16.30 59.70 2350 43.48 16.66 61.00 2400 44.41 17.01 62.30 2450 45.33 17.37 63.59 2500 46.26 17.72 64.89 2550 47.18 18.08 66.19 2600 48.11 18.43 67.49 2650 49.03 18.79 68.79 2700 49.96 19.14 70.08 2750 50.88 19.49 71.38 2800 51.81 19.85 72.68 2850 52.73 20.20 73.98 2900 53.66 20.56 75.28 2950 54.58 20.91 76.57 3000 55.51 21.27 77.87 3050 56.43 21.62 79.17 3100 57.36 21.98 80.47 3150 58.28 22.33 81.76 3200 59.21 22.68 83.06 3250 60.13 23.04 84.36 3300 61.06 23.39 85.66 3350 61.98 23.75 86.96 3400 62.91 24.10 88.25 3450 63.83 24.46 89.55 3500 64.76 24.81 90.85 3550 65.68 25.17 92.15 3600 66.61 25.52 93.45 3650 67.53 25.87 94.74 3700 68.46 26.23 96.04 3750 69.38 26.58 97.34 3800 70.31 26.94 98.64 john wrote: > > > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/1986-CJ10A/2009_Feb_23_emissions_test-1-percent/JEM_6702.jpg > > > looks like 1600 rpm at 25 mph... > > also, according to my calculations with 4.88's, 31" tires at 25 mph rpm > would be about 1400 rpm... the > right column is what is expected after this axle swap... 25 mph will be > around a grand... > > so it appears that 2wd is "high" range so the limitation of the NP198 is > no 4 wd High... I can live with that. > > > . > > __,_._,___ - -- ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 18:50:46 -0800 (PST) From: diesel john Subject: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case I wonder if someone didn't remove the snap ring and install a fork, because the shop was able to shift it externally into low range... so there is some hope. I talked to a tranny shop and they thought that 2wd is straight through as 1:1, or high range, and that it's possible that it only had the reduction gear for 4wd mode... he was going to check with an older tech and I was to call him back, but they never answered the phone again. ;) either way, I have an NP208 with shifter, so it's just a matter of getting down state to pick it up... and then install it... oh boy. ;) actually, a friend had one for sale, wonder if he'd loan me one for a while and if he's got the shifter.... :) joe? :) was that a 23 spline NP208 you had? do you have a shifter for it? john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, david-at-lang.hm wrote: # On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, john wrote: # # > so it's possible this thing has the correct guts and just needs to be # > set free? # > # > that would be good news... problem is taking it apart to set it free... :) # # if you go through the archives on this list you will find detailed # documentation on this. # # going from memory # # for case #1 you can remove the shifter cover, move the shift fork to high # range, and put the cover back on. # # for case #2 you have to disassemble everything to get at the snap ring, # remove it, and then reassemble the t-case (and add a shift fork during the # reassembly step) # # David Lang # # > david-at-lang.hm wrote: # >> # >> On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, diesel john wrote: # >> # >>> just got a call from the shop... the np208(or whatever it really is) # >>> only has LOW range... either 2wd or 4wd low.. no 4wd high... # >>> # >>> does anyone know if the spline count is the same as other FSJ apps? # >>> # >>> in other words, could I take the NP208 mated to my T18 in the '80 # >> J10 that # >>> is sitting down in Centralia and use it on the back of the TF727 in # >> the cj-10a? # >>> # >>> If not, I'll have to swap the input gear and guts over... not a big deal # >>> or all that expensive to have done... # >>> # >>> otherwise, it's ready to go out of the shop... cost a bit more than # >> expected, # >>> but still worth it... # >> # >> my understanding is that the tug transfer cases come in two versions # >> # >> 1. all the guts for both low and high range, with the lever locked in low # >> range (and cut so that it doesn't go out of the case) # >> # >> 2. only the gears for low range, with a snap ring on the shaft to prevent # >> it from moving out of low range. # >> # >> other than that, my understanding is that all of the guts are the same. # >> # >> David Lang # >> # >> # > # > # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 19:03:11 -0800 (PST) From: diesel john Subject: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case Understand about being locked into low range and having a top speed of 25, but the way the NP208s are constructed in high range the rear out put is directed straight through, there is a gear for the front driveshaft... here's an exploded diagram of an NP208... maybe you can figure it out... :) I'm working on heresay at this point from two folks (the shop and the trans shop) that have never seen one before... I'm just hoping I'll still have 2wd high and will be content to have 4wd low. :) http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/tech/TRANSFER-CASES/NP208/np208-diagram.jpg john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, david-at-lang.hm wrote: # On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, diesel john wrote: # # > I wonder if someone didn't remove the snap ring and install a fork, because the # > shop was able to shift it externally into low range... so there is some hope. # # some of the tugs had a fork and no snap ring (the #1 option I listed # below). # # > I talked to a tranny shop and they thought that 2wd is straight through as 1:1, # > or high range, and that it's possible that it only had the reduction gear for # > 4wd mode... he was going to check with an older tech and I was to call # > him back, but they never answered the phone again. ;) # # that doesn't really make sense, in Air Force service these transmissions # were locked in low range to handle the weight they were pulling with these # low HP engines. # # David Lang # # > either way, I have an NP208 with shifter, so it's just a matter of getting # > down state to pick it up... and then install it... oh boy. ;) # > # > actually, a friend had one for sale, wonder if he'd loan me one for # > a while and if he's got the shifter.... :) joe? :) was that # > a 23 spline NP208 you had? do you have a shifter for it? # > # > john # > # > # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, david-at-lang.hm wrote: # > # > # On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, john wrote: # > # # > # > so it's possible this thing has the correct guts and just needs to be # > # > set free? # > # > # > # > that would be good news... problem is taking it apart to set it free... :) # > # # > # if you go through the archives on this list you will find detailed # > # documentation on this. # > # # > # going from memory # > # # > # for case #1 you can remove the shifter cover, move the shift fork to high # > # range, and put the cover back on. # > # # > # for case #2 you have to disassemble everything to get at the snap ring, # > # remove it, and then reassemble the t-case (and add a shift fork during the # > # reassembly step) # > # # > # David Lang # > # # > # > david-at-lang.hm wrote: # > # >> # > # >> On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, diesel john wrote: # > # >> # > # >>> just got a call from the shop... the np208(or whatever it really is) # > # >>> only has LOW range... either 2wd or 4wd low.. no 4wd high... # > # >>> # > # >>> does anyone know if the spline count is the same as other FSJ apps? # > # >>> # > # >>> in other words, could I take the NP208 mated to my T18 in the '80 # > # >> J10 that # > # >>> is sitting down in Centralia and use it on the back of the TF727 in # > # >> the cj-10a? # > # >>> # > # >>> If not, I'll have to swap the input gear and guts over... not a big deal # > # >>> or all that expensive to have done... # > # >>> # > # >>> otherwise, it's ready to go out of the shop... cost a bit more than # > # >> expected, # > # >>> but still worth it... # > # >> # > # >> my understanding is that the tug transfer cases come in two versions # > # >> # > # >> 1. all the guts for both low and high range, with the lever locked in low # > # >> range (and cut so that it doesn't go out of the case) # > # >> # > # >> 2. only the gears for low range, with a snap ring on the shaft to prevent # > # >> it from moving out of low range. # > # >> # > # >> other than that, my understanding is that all of the guts are the same. # > # >> # > # >> David Lang # > # >> # > # >> # > # > # > # > # > # # > # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 19:12:14 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case The NP208 has the low range in the front 1/2 of the tcase. The output shaft is straight through the back. The front output is engaged when put into 4x4. All it does is lock the carrier to the chain that drives the front. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 19:03:11 -0800 > From: dieseljohn-at-comcast.net > To: CJ-10List-at-yahoogroups.com > CC: DZAshby-at-comcast.net; joe-at-j-hughes.com; fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case > > Understand about being locked into low range and having a top speed of 25, > but the way the NP208s are constructed in high range the rear out put is > directed straight through, there is a gear for the front driveshaft... > > here's an exploded diagram of an NP208... maybe you can figure it out... :) > > I'm working on heresay at this point from two folks (the shop and > the trans shop) that have never seen one before... I'm just hoping > I'll still have 2wd high and will be content to have 4wd low. :) > > http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/tech/TRANSFER-CASES/NP208/np208-diagram.jpg > john > _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail.. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MSGTX_ WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 10:32:13 -0800 (PST) From: diesel john Subject: RE: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case I think I'm following you on this... these things are hard for me to visualize... I get the part about straight through to the rear output... so when the front output is engaged it hooks up to the chain that goes to the main gear... what I don't understand is why it's only low range in 4wd mode, if in fact it is... heading down to Olympic right now... Guess I will use the NP208 from my T5 since it has a shifter I like, and it's not in a truck right now, both the trans shop and olympic seem to think there is no differences in the xfr case between manual and auto, both are 23 spline... the other NP208 mated to my T18 needs to stay put so curtis can get that drivetrain running... still plan to use the T5 in SuperDawg. Ultimately I'd like to mate a Mercedes Turbo Diesel to that T5, and the reason I went with 3.54s in the dawg. The T18 and spare Np208 will sit in my shop for the invariable future project. the sun just broke out... have yard chores to do, need to scamper into town... pictures to follow. :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, Jim Blair wrote: # The NP208 has the low range in the front 1/2 of the tcase. The output shaft is # straight through the back. The front output is engaged when put into 4x4. All # it does is lock the carrier to the chain that drives the front. # # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 # # # # # > Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 19:03:11 -0800 # > From: dieseljohn-at-comcast.net # > To: CJ-10List-at-yahoogroups.com # > CC: DZAshby-at-comcast.net; joe-at-j-hughes.com; fsj-at-digest.net # > Subject: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case # > # > Understand about being locked into low range and having a top speed of 25, # > but the way the NP208s are constructed in high range the rear out put is # > directed straight through, there is a gear for the front driveshaft... # > # > here's an exploded diagram of an NP208... maybe you can figure it out... # :) # > # > I'm working on heresay at this point from two folks (the shop and # > the trans shop) that have never seen one before... I'm just hoping # > I'll still have 2wd high and will be content to have 4wd low. :) # > # > http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/tech/TRANSFER-CASES/NP208/np208-diagram.jpg # > john # > # _________________________________________________________________ # Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail.. # http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MSGTX_ # WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme # ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 16:52:18 -0800 From: "Joe" Subject: fsj: RE: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case Nope, sold the 208 a couple months ago on CL. I just checked my shed to see if I had any others, but didn't find any. Jim B., While looking in my shed I did come across a Dana 20 adapter from the 727 that I bought from you. I know you probably forgot about it since it's only been 6 or 7 years ;-) Let me know if you want it back, you must be pretty close to me if you're in Lynn-hood now. I live just south of Paine Field. Joe H. - -----Original Message----- From: diesel john [mailto:dieseljohn-at-comcast.net] Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 6:51 PM To: cj-10 list Cc: dave ashby; Joe Hughes; full size jeep list Subject: Re: [CJ-10List] cj-10a transfer case I wonder if someone didn't remove the snap ring and install a fork, because the shop was able to shift it externally into low range... so there is some hope. I talked to a tranny shop and they thought that 2wd is straight through as 1:1, or high range, and that it's possible that it only had the reduction gear for 4wd mode... he was going to check with an older tech and I was to call him back, but they never answered the phone again. ;) either way, I have an NP208 with shifter, so it's just a matter of getting down state to pick it up... and then install it... oh boy. ;) actually, a friend had one for sale, wonder if he'd loan me one for a while and if he's got the shifter.... :) joe? :) was that a 23 spline NP208 you had? do you have a shifter for it? john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, david-at-lang.hm wrote: # On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, john wrote: # # > so it's possible this thing has the correct guts and just needs to be # > set free? # > # > that would be good news... problem is taking it apart to set it free... :) # # if you go through the archives on this list you will find detailed # documentation on this. # # going from memory # # for case #1 you can remove the shifter cover, move the shift fork to high # range, and put the cover back on. # # for case #2 you have to disassemble everything to get at the snap ring, # remove it, and then reassemble the t-case (and add a shift fork during the # reassembly step) # # David Lang # # > david-at-lang.hm wrote: # >> # >> On Fri, 6 Mar 2009, diesel john wrote: # >> # >>> just got a call from the shop... the np208(or whatever it really is) # >>> only has LOW range... either 2wd or 4wd low.. no 4wd high... # >>> # >>> does anyone know if the spline count is the same as other FSJ apps? # >>> # >>> in other words, could I take the NP208 mated to my T18 in the '80 # >> J10 that # >>> is sitting down in Centralia and use it on the back of the TF727 in # >> the cj-10a? # >>> # >>> If not, I'll have to swap the input gear and guts over... not a big deal # >>> or all that expensive to have done... # >>> # >>> otherwise, it's ready to go out of the shop... cost a bit more than # >> expected, # >>> but still worth it... # >> # >> my understanding is that the tug transfer cases come in two versions # >> # >> 1. all the guts for both low and high range, with the lever locked in low # >> range (and cut so that it doesn't go out of the case) # >> # >> 2. only the gears for low range, with a snap ring on the shaft to prevent # >> it from moving out of low range. # >> # >> other than that, my understanding is that all of the guts are the same. # >> # >> David Lang # >> # >> # > # > # ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3281 **************************