From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jun 3 17:25:02 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, June 4 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3343 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Chinese miltary to buy Humvee Re: [CJ-10List] Re: fsj: Cummins specs fsj: tug or j10? Re: fsj: tug or j10? Re: fsj: tug or j10? Re: fsj: tug or j10? Re: fsj: tug or j10? Re: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] fuel economy RE: fsj: Now body weight Re: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] fuel economy fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] fuel economy FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:14:50 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: fsj: Chinese miltary to buy Humvee http://jalopnik.com/5275799/report-chinese-company-buying-hummer?skyline=true &s=i _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live^Y: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:15:26 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: Re: [CJ-10List] Re: fsj: Cummins specs this might be it, actually got it out of the construction section, B series brochure... http://www.everytime.cummins.com/assets/pdf/4087025.pdf I'll see if this is the same one I have on my laptop... I figured this would be similar to existing models... just a hunch... after all, I was only after general weight to see if it would work in my J10. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, david-at-lang.hm wrote: # On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, diesel john wrote: # # > I'll send you the pdf directly tomorrow if that's ok with you. # > if not, I'll drill down to the pdf and send the link... I saved # > it as something else so I'll have to dig for it. :) # > # > I'm thinking the 3.9 and 5.9 as they seem to be the most common available to us... # # either way. # # David Lang # # > john # > # > # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, david-at-lang.hm wrote: # > # > # which ones do you want me to add to the calculator? # > # # > # please poing me at the bulletin number, and if there are different graphs # > # in the document, which one(s) you want added. # > # # > # David Lang # > # # > # On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, diesel john wrote: # > # # > # > Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 19:29:10 -0700 (PDT) # > # > From: diesel john # > # > Reply-To: CJ-10List-at-yahoogroups.com # > # > To: Stephen Cahill # > # > Cc: full size jeep list , # > # > cj-10 list # > # > Subject: [CJ-10List] Re: fsj: Cummins specs # > # > # > # > they have the power curves in that brochure as well... # > # > # > # > john # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > ----- # > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > # > # > # > On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, Stephen Cahill wrote: # > # > # > # > # Now to mention the RPM's put out by both engines. # > # > # A lot of work to get the gearing of powertrain to a sweet spot. # > # > # # > # > # Stephen # > # > # # > # > # On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 2:29 PM, diesel john wrote: # > # > # # > # > # > found engine specs for the 4BT and 6BT, including weights... authoritative # > # > # > source... # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > Specifications # > # > # > # > # > # > B3.9 B5.9 # > # > # > 4BT 6BT # > # > # > # > # > # > ADVERTISED HP 110-125 150-173 HP # > # > # > 82-93 KW 112-129 KW # > # > # > PEAK TORQUE 346-373 LB-FT 453-580 LB-FT # > # > # > 469-506 N.M 614-786 N.M # > # > # > NUMBER OF CYLINDERS 4 6 # > # > # > # > # > # > OIL SYSTEM 11.5 U.S. QT 17.2 U.S. QT # > # > # > CAPACITY 10.9 LITERS 16.3 LITERS # > # > # > # > # > # > WET WEIGHT 745-782 LB 952-997 LB # > # > # > 338-355 KG 432-452 KG # > # > # > # > # > # > LENGTH 30.6 IN 40.0 IN # > # > # > 777 MM 1016 MM # > # > # > WIDTH 24.6 IN 24.9 IN # > # > # > 625 MM 632 MM # > # > # > HEIGHT 37.7 IN 37.9 IN # > # > # > 958 MM 963 MM # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > authoritative info from: # > # > # > http://www.everytime.cummins.com/every/misc/brochures.page? # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > ----- # > # > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > # > # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # > # > # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > # > # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # # > # > # > # # > # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 22:02:10 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: tug or j10? trying to decide which one to go for as my daily driver... if it turns out to be my j10, the tug goes away... if it's the tug, then the J10 becomes a classic project... :) the tug gets a lot of attention, very easy to work on, very easy to park, and if I can get the suspension dialed in, lots of fun to drive... for some reason it's going a lot faster than before... synthetic oil? or is it just loosening up? or am I getting used to going slow? ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 22:08:33 -0700 From: Kevin Subject: Re: fsj: tug or j10? The landcruiser seemed to pick up some speed (but never uphill) after a few thousand miles of being railed on. Guess industrial diesels don't like having a light load or something. I realize this is a full size jeep list, but the tug needs to be your daily driver. If you ever finish that J10, I'm afraid the world might end :) On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 10:02:10PM -0700, john wrote: > trying to decide which one to go for as my daily driver... if it > turns out to be my j10, the tug goes away... if it's the tug, then > the J10 becomes a classic project... :) > > the tug gets a lot of attention, very easy to work on, very easy to park, > and if I can get the suspension dialed in, lots of fun to drive... for > some reason it's going a lot faster than before... synthetic oil? or is > it just loosening up? or am I getting used to going slow? ;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 22:38:16 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: tug or j10? the tug is a full size jeep... well, mostly... grand wagoneer frame (albeit shortened a bit) grand wagoneer springs grand wagoneer axles grand wagoneer transmission grand cherokee seat the rest is cj and it's got an FSJ sticker on it... of course it doesn't meet the official criteria by way of wheelbase, etc, but that's ok, as one of the founding members I usually get away with such silliness, like driving a WJ to an SJ gathering because my SJ was in more pieces than I could count... I'm convinced after driving this little Diesel around that it'll move my J10 around as it's lighter, will have lower gearing and a manual trans... also, I'll be using the Turbo Diesel version if I can mate it to my existing T-5. Heading over to Idaho in a month or so to retrieve the engine and adapters... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, Kevin wrote: # The landcruiser seemed to pick up some speed (but never uphill) after a few # thousand miles of being railed on. Guess industrial diesels don't like having # a light load or something. # # I realize this is a full size jeep list, but the tug needs to be your daily # driver. If you ever finish that J10, I'm afraid the world might end :) # # On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 10:02:10PM -0700, john wrote: # > trying to decide which one to go for as my daily driver... if it # > turns out to be my j10, the tug goes away... if it's the tug, then # > the J10 becomes a classic project... :) # > # > the tug gets a lot of attention, very easy to work on, very easy to park, # > and if I can get the suspension dialed in, lots of fun to drive... for # > some reason it's going a lot faster than before... synthetic oil? or is # > it just loosening up? or am I getting used to going slow? ;) # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:33:53 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: tug or j10? john said: {- the tug is a full size jeep... well, mostly... {- {- grand wagoneer frame (albeit shortened a bit) {- grand wagoneer springs {- grand wagoneer axles {- grand wagoneer transmission {- grand cherokee seat {- the rest is cj {- {- and it's got an FSJ sticker on it... {- {- of course it doesn't meet the official criteria by way of wheelbase, etc, bu {- t that's {- ok, as one of the founding members I usually get away with such silliness, l {- ike driving {- a WJ to an SJ gathering because my SJ was in more pieces than I could count. But can you convince the DOT it's an SJ? What do _they_ think it is? ;) Having said that, of course, I'll be selling both my SJs now... There are definitely some things I'll miss, but the WJ guts (engine, mileage, interior) are better. (Even the 4wd with the Quadradrive, though the Selectrac and Quadratrac on my SJs are still great.) The WJ has the worst visability (sides and rear) of any of my current vehicles, including the Lincoln Mark VIII, but I'm already getting pretty good with knowing where the edges are. (I may have to do a video of getting it in and out of the garage. ;) ) I'll justify my continued participation in the FSJ list by simply saying I'm still a fan. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who need closure. -- Mark Schmidt - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 07:32:26 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: tug or j10? yes, it has a pedestrian sized blind spot ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 3 Jun 2009, Dan Black wrote: # john said: # {- the tug is a full size jeep... well, mostly... # {- # {- grand wagoneer frame (albeit shortened a bit) # {- grand wagoneer springs # {- grand wagoneer axles # {- grand wagoneer transmission # {- grand cherokee seat # {- the rest is cj # {- # {- and it's got an FSJ sticker on it... # {- # {- of course it doesn't meet the official criteria by way of wheelbase, etc, bu # {- t that's # {- ok, as one of the founding members I usually get away with such silliness, l # {- ike driving # {- a WJ to an SJ gathering because my SJ was in more pieces than I could count. # # But can you convince the DOT it's an SJ? What do _they_ think it is? ;) # # Having said that, of course, I'll be selling both my SJs now... There # are definitely some things I'll miss, but the WJ guts (engine, mileage, # interior) are better. (Even the 4wd with the Quadradrive, though the # Selectrac and Quadratrac on my SJs are still great.) The WJ has the # worst visability (sides and rear) of any of my current vehicles, # including the Lincoln Mark VIII, but I'm already getting pretty good # with knowing where the edges are. (I may have to do a video of getting # it in and out of the garage. ;) ) # # I'll justify my continued participation in the FSJ list by simply saying # I'm still a fan. # # ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- # There are two kinds of people in the world: # Those who need closure. # -- Mark Schmidt # -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:15:24 -0700 From: Kevin Subject: Re: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] fuel economy Being able to drive up your driveway without body damage or losing a trans is a feat, regardless of vehicle ;) On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 04:35:50PM -0700, john wrote: > I have to go to Idaho to retrieve the SD33T and T-19. I think > there is a difference between the auto and the manual setup... on > SuperDawg I plan to run the manual trans because he's already setup > that way and it will give me a bit more power and flexibility. > > Once I got the shift kit in the 727 and the driveshaft shudder dealt > with I'm able to haul my trailer full of dirt up my driveway... that's > a pretty good test... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 22:02:51 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: RE: fsj: Now body weight One member from IFSJA in Chico or Northern Cal, has put up his wagoneer body on doubled up 2X4 and sawhorse. The original pict showed 2x4, and when I asked him about the "safety", he replied that he doubled them..... after taking the pict. The front clip is removed I think. Michel74 wag > To: fsj-digest-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: good thoughts on the rodent issue > Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 00:15:31 -0400 > From: wallacem7-at-aol.com > > Thanks Jim and Michel for the thoughts on rodent control. I put a Tuna can of pine sol on the passenger side floor of the Jeep and two out in the shed. I had to evict something like three families of mice from the shed some had made nests in boxes of car parts and one family had moved into my router table. we'll see how that works out. > > Too bad for you guys who have to pass an inspection where the cat has to be state certified. When I lived in Michigan I ran a straight pipe on the street for several months, no cat, no muffler. I would just get off the loud pedal whenever I passed a cop and I never had any trouble. Of course during the summer hot rods with straight pipes or uncorked headers were pretty common. So was the smell of "not for highway use" race gas. When I lived in Massachussetts I would get pulled over from time to time with dual glass packs which were a lot quieter than straight pipes.? And I wonder why my hearing is so bad. > > ?As far as my brushed on flames paint job, that was always meant as a temporary thing. I don't remember the exact cost of it...I think two cans of rust-oleum, a 79 cent disposible brush and a few cans of PBR. And to think there was a point in time when I did $10,000 paint jobs for a living. I still have the skills and the sanding blocks to do that kind of work. I suspect I will be attacking the Wagoneer with the cutoff wheel and the welder and the spot weld cutter later this month. Does anybody have a good idea what the body without interior or closures weighs? I'd like to pull it off to repair the frame and paint everything. . > > regards > > Mark Wallace > 81 Wagoneer _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live^Y SkyDrive^Y: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:22:16 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] fuel economy On Wed, 3 Jun 2009, Kevin wrote: # Being able to drive up your driveway without body damage or losing a trans # is a feat, regardless of vehicle ;) ya got that right... I have trouble walking up or down it... it's downright frightening with frost or snow or ice... even wet leaves... :) was playing around with helper springs/driveshaft length... last night, using the driveway as my torture test track... :) with the leaf spring add-a-leafs at max strength, but without the coil overloads caused a shudder... meaning the driveshaft was still too long (compressed) and the springs not lifted enough... the overloads alone were fine... but with both, too much spring... Harsh ride... so I made another adjustment, drive around the driveway to check for shudder or bounciness... :) I set the add-a-leafs back to minimum, and cut one coil off the overloads... not too bad... drove it to work today that way... acceptable... I think I'm going to add a block to give me an inch, that should get me off the overload coils normally, but make some use of the add-a-leafs normally to overcome wag sag... then when I put a barrel of WVO on the back it'll settle down onto the overloads and all will be well... no shudder, acceptable ride... the shop wants $200 to rearch the springs... off the jeep... if they pull the springs and arch 'em I'm looking at $400. Buying longer u-bolts and putting the 1" blocks I have with the mickey mouse combo of overloads and add-a-leafs will probably cost less... and work... this little jeep is like a little transformer... I've got all kinds of accessories to plug into the rear hitch to extend the bed, add a barrel lift, bike rack, shoot, I can even tow my trailer with it... setting it up for mulitipurpose use is a fun engineering challenge... easy to work on... like the short bed in the back, I can almost reach across it from any side. :) The more I drive this thing the more I realize that this drivetrain would work fine in SuperDawg, especially with a Turbo. :) I'm buried in the tug though, so dismantling it to build the J10 stepside might be painful... we'll see how this all works out... the J10 has a much nicer cab, a/c, longer wheelbase with a dialed in suspension, more elbow room, less wind noise, a much more refined look... shoot, maybe I should just move the cab over to the cj-10a and put the cj-10 cab on the j10 stepside... or use my extra J10 cab on the cj-10a... or... oh, never mind... I'm likely to give myself and half the list a headache... too many options, not enough time, talent or treasury bills... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 04:35:50PM -0700, john wrote: # > I have to go to Idaho to retrieve the SD33T and T-19. I think # > there is a difference between the auto and the manual setup... on # > SuperDawg I plan to run the manual trans because he's already setup # > that way and it will give me a bit more power and flexibility. # > # > Once I got the shift kit in the 727 and the driveshaft shudder dealt # > with I'm able to haul my trailer full of dirt up my driveway... that's # > a pretty good test... # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:24:38 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: fsj: Re: [CJ-10List] fuel economy the other issue is that my drop is on the driver's side for both Jeeps... I have a Ford C6/Dana 300 with a driver's side drop... yikes, what a combo nightmare that would be... a Nissan SD33T to a IH T-19 to a Ford Dana 300 in a Jeep... maybe if I buy a lottery ticket I could win and just buy a nice new Mercedes Diesel that has 4wd and call it good... ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 3 Jun 2009, mhjeep-at-comcast.net wrote: # John, # # The bolt pattern on the for the T-19 to the Dana 300 in a Scout is different then the Jeep 300. You will need to find a Scout Dana 300 to get the pattern to match up. I have looked into this and no one makes an adapter for the T-19 to Jeep Dana 300. # # Good luck, # Mike # ----- Original Message ----- # From: "diesel john" # To: "cj-10 list" # Cc: "full size jeep list" # Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2009 1:37:40 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific # Subject: Re: [CJ-10List] fuel economy # # # # # # # # # dang, why is it that NOTHING is simple or easy... or affordable? :) # # so, I should probably use the SD33T with the mated T19 and get # an adapter to mate to my Jeep xfr case... is THAT possible? :) # # oh, thinking about it, the adapters on manual trannies are longer, # so I don't think that extra length represents a real issue... I suspect # there is the same length on my T5... maybe... (note the air of confidence. ;) # # john # # ----- # ---------------------------------------------------------- # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # ---------------------------------------------------------- # # On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, david-at-lang.hm wrote: # # # On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, diesel john wrote: # # # # > Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:22:03 -0700 (PDT) # # > From: diesel john < dieseljohn-at-comcast.net > # # > Reply-To: CJ-10List-at-yahoogroups.com # # > To: undisclosed-recipients: ; # # > Subject: [CJ-10List] fuel economy # # > # # > last tank on the tug shows a solid 20 mpg... # # > # # > average over the last three tanks is a solid 18mpg... # # > just switched it over to amsoil and already seeing a 2mpg spike... nice... # # > # # > next project is to get the rear springs arched, have overloads on it right now # # > but it's just too "springy". # # > # # > thinking that the SD33T I've found might work fine in SuperDawg with his # # > T-5. Does anyone know if a T-19 adapter will mate to a T-5? The SD33T # # > I've found comes with a T-19 for a scout... the SD33T used an SAE #4 adapter # # > ring that mates to the Big Block 727, or the Scout T-19. # # # # not quite true. # # # # the scout SD33/SD33T with the T-19 had a SAE#4 adapter ring # # this adapter is ~7" thick # # # # the tug SD33 has an adapter to the mopar big block pattern for the 727 # # this adapter is ~2" thick # # # # they are _very_ different adapters. # # # # David Lang # # # # # # [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] # # ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3343 **************************